Instant Death and Feel No Pain.

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**Nurglitch**

The word is "inflicts" not "inflict". It makes an interesting difference.

**Antryg**

Nurglitch wrote:Yakface:

Premise 1 is true, a S10 weapon wounding a T4 model, Daemon or otherwise, inflicts Instant Death upon that model. It serves the conditions listed in the Instant Death rule.

Likewise Premise 2 is true, models with the Eternal Warrior rule, such as Daemons, are immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule.

The effect of the Instant Death rule is that the model is removed as a casualty, "if [it] is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater and fail their save" (Rulebook, p.27).

Premise 2 does not contradict Premise 1 because Eternal Warrior does not stop a weapon from inflicting Instant Death, it makes a model immune to suffering the effects of Instant Death.

So if a S10 weapon wounds a T4 model with both the Eternal Warrior rule and the Feel No Pain rule, say a Daemon, then that model is not removed as a casualty if it has wounds remaining, and that wound cannot be negated by Feel No Pain.

What seems to be confusing you, and others, is the fact that the Feel No Pain rule and the Instant Death rule share conditions. If these conditions are obtained, then it is the case that a model suffers Instant Death and does not get a Feel No Pain roll to negate the wound. The Eternal Warrior rule says that if these conditions are obtained, then a model does not suffer Instant Death.

Hence the first premise of my argument states one condition for Instant Death, ID iff S10>2xT4=T. The logical structure of the Instant Death rule is:

P1. ID iff S>2T=T v ~Sv=T

Likewise, since the Eternal Warrior rule negates the antecedent of the Instant Death rule (the effect, not its causes), then logical structure of the Eternal Warrior rule is, :

P2. ~ID iff (S>2T=T v ~Sv=T) & EW=T

Finally, the logical structure of the Feel No Pain rule is:

P3. FNP iff ~(S>2T=T v ~Sv=T)

The first conclusion, the fact that a model with Eternal Warrior (a Daemon) does not suffer from Instant Death, follows logically because it simply reiterates Premise 2.

C1. ~ID

The second conclusion, the fact that a model with Feel No Pain cannot use that rule if wounded by something matching the conditions for Instant Death, follows logically (via the form of argument known as 'modus ponens') because the conditions for Instant Death are the negation of the conditions under which a model can use Feel No Pain.

C2. ~FNP

If we really simplify this, to demonstrate validity via a derivation in a propositional logic, let's say that:

A = (S>2T=T v ~Sv=T)
B = EW=T
C = ID=T
D = FNP=T

UD. A & (B v D)
P1. A ├ C
P2. A & B ├ ~C
P3. A ├ ~D
4. B v D (Simplification, UD)
5. A (Simplification, UD)
6. ~D (Modus Ponens, P3 & 5)
7. B (Disjunctive Syllogism, 4 & 6)
8. A & B (Conjunction, 5 & 7)
C1. ~C (Modus Ponens, P2 & 8)
C2 ~D (Modus Ponens, P3 & 5)
C3. ~C & ~D (Conjunction, C1 & C2)

As you can see (if I've done this right...) the argument is valid.

Of course, the universe of discourse (UD) presumed is that there is a model meeting the conditions of the Instant Death rule, which has both Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior.

This universe of discourse provides a model by which we can judge the argument to be sound.

The combined conclusion (C3), that the model does not suffer Instant Death but cannot use its Feel No Pain rule follows trivially.

It pains me to quote this in its entirety, but it is for a reason.

First of all, deductive reasoning says that your first premise of your argument is indeed false.
Instant death has not been inflicted because Eternal warrior rule makes anything protected by that rule immune to instant death.
How can you inflict upon something that is immune to said infliction?

The basis of your argument has failed and the rest of your argument has thus collapsed with it.

Does the logical fallacy Proof by verbosity mean anything to you?

Do you really expect to be taken seriously due to verbosity?

I cannot see trying to use your argument in any type of game with any type of opponent due to the pedantic and esoteric verbosity and sheer boredom it would draw. Thus, it is impractical and of no use to the current discussion at hand.
Again, you cite more proof by assertion without deductive reasoning skills sufficient to realize that your first premise in incorrect. You have been shown that your first premise in infact false, yet you continue to assert that it is true, despite evidence to the contrary.

Nurglitch wrote:I think it would be more productive to continue working on resolving disagreements.

Since you have shown you continually ignore proof contrary to your first premise (the entire basis of your argument), I would have to say continuing this discussion with you would be quite counterproductive.
In fact, I would cite that you are borderline trolling, just enough to be under the radar of the Mods, but enough to draw ridiculing statements to your premise, and thus make you look like the victim.

**Nurglitch**

Antryg:

The Instant Death rule is very clear on both what it is to inflict Instant Death and what it is to suffer the effects of Instant Death:

"If a creature is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater and fail their save, they are killed outright and removed as a casualty."

The argument I have provided, cited, and diagrammed for your convenience shows that not only is Premise 1 true (something inflicts Instant Death where conditions obtain), but also how the Instant Death, Feel No Pain, and Eternal Warrior rules interact and the only valid conclusion we can logically derive about their interaction.

The diagram (the derivation) shows that the structure of Premise 1, the Instant Death rule, is a conditional with two parts, and that the Eternal Warrior rule negates one part, the effect of being removed as a casualty, rather than negating the entire rule (including the conditions that also apply to negating Feel No Pain).

As such, your attempt to distract from the issue at hand fails. Your unwillingness to address my argument directly is noted.

Moving on...

What seems to be the problem here is that some people think that immunity to the effects of Instant Death is the same as immunity to the entire Instant Death rule.

I think it's because people are using the phrase "Instant Death" as interchangeable with the effect of the Instant Death rule, being removed from the board as a casualty.

Since the effect of the Instant Death rule is not the whole of that rule, it seems that some people are confusing the whole rule with a part of it.

Of course, the argument that I provided and diagrammed shows how such confusion may be avoided where we remember that the Instant Death rule, the first premise of my argument, is a conditional (iff) relation composed of two parts.

As such, they are ignoring the textual evidence that makes it true that the Eternal Warrior rule specifically negates the effects of Instant Death, rather than the entire rule.

Immunity to the effects of Instant Death does not grant a model immunity to the causes of Instant Death, and hence does not grant a model a Feel No Pain Roll where something inflicts (i.e.: causes) Instant Death upon that model.

**fullheadofhair**

Nurglitch wrote:The word is "inflicts" not "inflict". It makes an interesting difference.

Not really, see "inflicts" when used in the contest of "a weapon that inflicts ID". What does the weapon inflict ID on? How is ID calc'ed {x2 models toughness or special rules} The question is simply "for a weapon that inflicts ID did it do so on this occasion". If the weapon didn't inflict ID for a reason ID cannot have taken place. Therefore if ID didn't take place the FNP applies.

**trentonator**

Okay, I beleive that the nurgle daemons do get the FNP save even through ID because the ID is not inflicted on the models. The rule specifically states "[FNP] cannot be used against weapons that inflict< instant death (those with strength double or more the target's toughness)..."

Now, it says inflict. The definition of inflict is:

1. to impose as something that must be borne or suffered: to inflict punishment.
2. to impose (anything unwelcome): The regime inflicted burdensome taxes on the people.
3. to deal or deliver, as a blow.

So in order for something to inflict ID, it has to actually impose it, which it doesn't.

A model cannot be inflicted ID without it actually occuring, which never happens. The daemons are never dealt or delivered the ID and therefore are never inflicted ID. So they do get FNP.

**Nurglitch**

fullheadofhair:

When a weapon inflicts Instant Death when "a creature is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater and fail their save".

When a model suffers the effects of Instant Death "they are killed outright and removed as a casualty."

By the Eternal Warrior rule, a Daemon would be "immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule", which are being killed outright and removal as a casualty even when it has wounds remaining.

Instant Death is inflicted on something that is immune to its effects, therefore no Feel No Pain roll is permitted.

Edit: Incidentally, the text of the Feel No Pain rule does specifically state that: "This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death (those with a Strength double or more the model's Toughness). It follows that this ability cannot be used against weapons with a Strength double or more the model's Toughness...

**trentonator**

no ID is not inflicted on something that is Immune. That's why I put the definition up

Immunity (Immune only talks about disease...):

1. exemption from any natural or usual liability.

Now, just because I want to be ahead, Exempt:

1. released from, or not subject to an obligation

now I'll put the definitions into your sentence and show you that it doesn't make sense.

Instant Death is dealt or delivered on something that is released from, or not subject to its effects, therefore no Feel No Pain roll is permitted.

Tell me how that is true at all...

**Antryg**

Nurglitch, your posting style seems deliberately obtuse to create dissension.

Suffer: undergo or be subjected to

Inflict: to impose upon

To suffer something, it must first be inflicted.

**Nurglitch**

trentonator:

My point is that if a model is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater, and fail their save, then that something inflicts Instant Death upon that model.

Put another way, if models are wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater, and fail their save, then the conditions of the Instant Death rule have been satisfied.

Eternal Warrior merely renders a model immune to the effects of Instant Death, not immune to the conditions.

For if Eternal Warrior negated Instant Death entirely, then models with that rule could not be wounded by weapons with a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater, and Feel No Pain would be irrelevant.

**DeathGod**

Nurglitch wrote: The diagram (the derivation) shows that the structure of Premise 1, the Instant Death rule, is a conditional with two parts, and that the Eternal Warrior rule negates one part, the effect of being removed as a casualty, rather than negating the entire rule (including the conditions that also apply to negating Feel No Pain).

How do you figure? C:CSM, page 32 "Eternal Warrior: Having been elevated by the Chaos Gods, the Daemon Prince has little to fear from mortal weapons. A Daemon Prince is immune to the Instant Death rile."

NOT "A Daemon Prince suffers no ill effect from Instant Death" or something lile that. IMMUNE TO THE RULE.

**Nurglitch**

DeathGod:

That's true, but I'm working off Codex: Eldar which actually has an option whereby a single model can have Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior.

Codex: Eldar, p.54 wrote:Eternal Warriors
Phoenix Lords can never truly be destroyed, and are hence immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule.

I'm curious to see what the text of Codex: Chaos Daemons says regarding Eternal Warrior.

**MinMax**

Nurglitch wrote:
Codex: Eldar, p.54 wrote:Eternal Warriors
Phoenix Lords can never truly be destroyed, and are hence immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule.

Would you not call negating Feel no Pain one of the effects of the Instant Death rule?

**Nurglitch**

No. The effect(s) of the Instant Death rule is to be "killed outright and removed as a casualty".

**Ztryder**

Nurg, here is the wording in Codex Demons:

"Every model in the Army has the Eternal Warrior universal special rule (see the Warhammer 40,000 rule book) and is therefore immune to Instant Death"

unless i am wrong i dont think eternal warrior is in the 4th ed rulebook, from which one could surmise that the BGB reference is there for when 5th comes out (note the lack of a specific page as in all 4thed codices, but all 5thed codices simply say "the rulebook" to avoid citing an incorrect page when the new BGB hits)

that being said, it is a different wording from both the Eldar and CSM codices. RAI all it is saying is that Demons can not be reduced to zero wounds because of the Instant Death rule. as the actual Instant Death rule says nothing about FNP, and we are debating the meaning behind the wording of the FNP rule i would still maintain that Plaguebearers lose FNP to Demolisher shots.

**Nurglitch**

Ztryder:

Yes, we are discussing the Feel No Pain rule and whether models with the Eternal Warrior rule can make a Feel No Pain roll if something inflicts Instant Death upon them.

According to a certain .pdf floating around, the 5th edition Eternal Warrior rule will make a model "immune to Instant Death". Moreover it suggests that Eternal Warrior will not exempt a model from losing that roll if wounded by weapons that inflict Instant Death.

But this merely makes explicit what so many of us already know, that being immune to Instant Death does not protect a model's access to its Feel No Pain roll.

We know this because the Instant Death rule is a conditional rule: If you meet the conditions, the same conditions that negate the Feel No Pain roll, then you suffer the effects.

If something is to be immune to the Instant Kill rule, it must be immune to the effects of the Instant Kill rule, rather than immune to both the conditions for the Instant Kill rule to take effect and the effects themselves.

Quite simply, if Eternal Warrior makes a model immune to Instant Death, and the effect of Instant Death is to be removed as a casualty, then all Eternal Warrior means is that the model is not removed as a casualty when it sustains wounds that would otherwise satisfy the conditions of Instant Death.

It would not mean that those conditions do not apply to other rules that share them, such as Feel No Pain. That would be confusing the conditions for the rule with the effects of the rule.

**fullheadofhair**

deleted

**Ztryder**

But this merely makes explicit what so many of us already know, that being immune to Instant Death does protect a model's access to its Feel No Pain roll.

surely you meant to say "does not"

**Nurglitch**

Ztryder:

Oops, good eye. I stand corrected.

**snooggums**

This is like a model saved by a medic.

The model takes a wound and fails a save. The effect of this is to remove the model. Instead the medic allows you to ignore the effect (he was still wounded and failed a save) by not removing the model. The Demon is ignoring the effects (removal), not the ID itself which is only based on the condition of having double toughness.

No FNP.

Also the 'whole army ignores a basic rule' crap is annoying.

**Ztryder**

snooggums wrote:This is like a model saved by a medic.

The model takes a wound and fails a save. The effect of this is to remove the model. Instead the medic allows you to ignore the effect (he was still wounded and failed a save) by not removing the model. The Demon is ignoring the effects (removal), not the ID itself which is only based on the condition of having double toughness.

No FNP.

Also the 'whole army ignores a basic rule' crap is annoying.

instant death is far from a basic rule, it is situational.

they dont ignore the rule, they just have Aces to instant death's Kings.. in other words they beat it.

putting the topic back on track. the demon IS ignoring the ID itself, otherwise it would die outright. the fact of the matter remains that the weapons still inflict instant death, the demons however are just immune to dieing outright.

think of it like getting bitten by a black mamba and by some miracle of nature you are immune to the venom.. the snake still inflicted the wound, and injected the venom (metaphor for instant death, in case you are missing the point).
however you are immune to the venom but that bite sure as hell still hurts no? the inflicted wound still is one that would have caused you to die (ID) but since you are immune to the venom (EW) you didnt die outright. You still feel the pain if you will (thus no FNP).

**Dakkaladd**

Ztryder wrote: instant death is far from a basic rule, it is situational.

Instant death is a rule listed in the core rule book for the 40k system. I'm not sure how much more basic it can get than this. I do, however, subscirbe to the notion that models with the eternal warrior special rule who are wounded by a 2x strength weapon will not get FNP.

**Inquisitor_Malice**

Eternal warrior is immune the ID rule. Therefore, this 2x str weapon check is never made with the FNP. ID is completely eliminated from the equation.

**Aeon**

I like it how people state things that are irrefutable without any reference to the rulebook...

**Ztryder**

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:Eternal warrior is immune the ID rule. Therefore, this 2x str weapon check is never made with the FNP. ID is completely eliminated from the equation.

incorrect. instant death is most definitly included. see my black mamba analogy above.
A wound that inflicts instant death occurs. however being an EW demons are just immune to dieing as an effect of instant death.
as instant death was "inflicted" (albeit ignored/nullified) the demon/phoenixlord/etc. is not eligible for FNP. (under the rules of FNP)
its sort of like a psychic hood frying an opponents power (effectively making your whole army immune to that power for one turn, sound like a similarity to an army of eternal warriors anyone?) that rolled snake eyes.. the power doesnt go off but the psyker must still suffer perils of the warp.

what it really comes down to is that it is a condition of the FNP rule, not the instant death rule.
if under ID it says "models suffering from instant death make not make a FNP roll" then yes the demon would indeed get their roll (being immune to ID.
however, the ruling is under FNP and uses the word "inflict".

no FNP.

**Inquisitor_Malice**

Ztryder wrote:think of it like getting bitten by a black mamba and by some miracle of nature you are immune to the venom.. the snake still inflicted the wound, and injected the venom (metaphor for instant death, in case you are missing the point).
however you are immune to the venom but that bite sure as hell still hurts no? the inflicted wound still is one that would have caused you to die (ID) but since you are immune to the venom (EW) you didnt die outright. You still feel the pain if you will (thus no FNP).

This is the problem with real world examples. You obviously forgot about the drugs I take that don't allow me to feel any pain. Only extreme and greivous wounds will slow me down.

**Dakkaladd**

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:Eternal warrior is immune the ID rule. Therefore, this 2x str weapon check is never made with the FNP. ID is completely eliminated from the equation.

By that logic, would not the model be immune to the weapon period? You see, the weapon causes instant death. Since the demon is immune to instant death it cannot be hurt by the weapon.

Obviously this is false, but it is the same reasoning used. Feel no pain says "this ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death (those with a strength double or more the model's toughness)..."

The FNP check is made based on the attack first. If an attack doubles it's target's toughness then the save is negated. Eternal warrior then kicks in and says that if the model is multiple wound, then it does not lose all remaining wounds because of being wounded by a 2x toughness attack.

**trentonator**

Dakkaladd wrote:
Inquisitor_Malice wrote:Eternal warrior is immune the ID rule. Therefore, this 2x str weapon check is never made with the FNP. ID is completely eliminated from the equation.

The FNP check is made based on the attack first. If an attack doubles it's target's toughness then the save is negated. Eternal warrior then kicks in and says that if the model is multiple wound, then it does not lose all remaining wounds because of being wounded by a 2x toughness attack.

Umm... how would you know which order the rules are applied? There is no specific way stated in the BGB that say FNP is made first.

Also the whole venom analogy. What about someone that has no nerve endings(FNP)? They wouldn't feel the bite at all and if they were also immune to the poison(EW), then they wouldn't die instantly and they also wouldn't feel the pain.

And as I pointed out earlier, in order to inflict something unto another the victim must have been dealt the effects, which doesn't ever occur.

Also, I don't know if anyone else realized... But we aren't making any progress, no one is going to change their mind on the topic so what's the purpose of this?

**Ztryder**

trentonator wrote:

Umm... how would you know which order the rules are applied? There is no specific way stated in the BGB that say FNP is made first.

it is however a completely separate rule, each with different conditions that pertain to satisfying said rule.

example:
Demolisher Cannon shoots a unit of Plaguebearers.
S10 v T5 = 2xstr wep. instant death inflicted but EW makes them immune to being reduced to zero wounds as a result of instant death. it is however inflicted. roll saves and fail X number of them.
plaguebearers have FNP usr, so X failed saves are eligable for FNP. HOWEVER, since ID was inflicted (by 2xstr wep), no FNP.

**Nurglitch**

A little flow-chart I whipped up.

**Janthkin**

Except your flowchart COULD begin with "Does the model have Eternal Warrior?" If yes - skip the ID check; if no - check the ID check. If a model is immune to ID, we don't invoke any of its provisions, INCLUDING the "S >= 2xT" check.