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Not if we're going to represent how Feel No Pain and Instant Death share that initial condition of being wounded by a weapon that has a Strength double or more the model's Toughness.

EW is only going to apply after the wound that causes instant death, so you cannot start the chart with EW.

edit: bah nurglitch beat me to it

read through some of the posts.

It is my opinion that the ability's are separate.
EW and FNP
FNP doesn't benefit from EW

Though the wording for FNP does cause me to raise this OT question. A weapon with variable effects (wraithcannon) have the ability to inflict instant death, but not in every circumstance(you didn't roll for it). By the wording of FNP you wouldn't receive the feel no pain roll as "the weapon inflicts instant death".

Except, Nurglith's flowchart is showing how the rules actually work, not now Nurgle's boys want to twist them.

Good on you for the Chart Nurg, you rule. The Logic layout table before was a nightmare. That table was great.

Personally, I see where both sides are right.

I'd like to say that I'm building a C:CD Nurgle army and I originally thought that being shot by a double strength weapon would removed FNP but not outright kill the model.

Although the argument for keeping FNP when shot by a double strength weapon is compelling. It also helps me out against the stray S10 rail gun, ect.

I'm going to talk to the manager of the GW Store I go to play, see what he thinks and get his ruling. Then live by that until a FAQ comes down about it.

1BadZ wrote:
I'm going to talk to the manager of the GW Store I go to play, see what he thinks and get his ruling. Then live by that until a FAQ comes down about it.

If you ask for his ruling, I think you might be better off doing the exact opposite of whatever he says... Past experience suggests that would be the better choice.

Janthkin wrote:Except your flowchart COULD begin with "Does the model have Eternal Warrior?" If yes - skip the ID check; if no - check the ID check. If a model is immune to ID, we don't invoke any of its provisions, INCLUDING the "S >= 2xT" check.

Agree

Beast wrote:

If you ask for his ruling, I think you might be better off doing the exact opposite of whatever he says... Past experience suggests that would be the better choice.

Point taken, but this guy is pretty much on the ball. The few other past GW managers though, I would agree.

Nurglitch wrote:Not if we're going to represent how Feel No Pain and Instant Death share that initial condition of being wounded by a weapon that has a Strength double or more the model's Toughness.

sorry but you keep insisting that EW says, "immune to the EFFECTS of the ID rule" but no it doesnt
it says that "Is immune to the instant death rule" blocking the the ID rule as a whole. so yeah fnp still happens.
since EW is IMMUNE to the instant death RULE and not the instant death EFFECTS.

enmitee wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Not if we're going to represent how Feel No Pain and Instant Death share that initial condition of being wounded by a weapon that has a Strength double or more the model's Toughness.

sorry but you keep insisting that EW says, "immune to the EFFECTS of the ID rule" but no it doesnt
it says that "Is immune to the instant death rule" blocking the the ID rule as a whole. so yeah fnp still happens.
since EW is IMMUNE to the instant death RULE and not the instant death EFFECTS.

The Chaos version of the rules says immune to the rule, the Elder version says immune to the effect.

It's the same thing insofar as the Instant Death rule is concerned. Eternal Warrior makes a model immune to (the effects of) Instant Death, not immune to weapons with a Strength twice or more its Toughness. Immunity to a rule makes a model immune to the effects of that rule, not its conditions for taking effect.

After this long and much debate, I think its confusing enough to require a FAQ from GW before anybody will be silent about it (and even then who knows who won't make a fuss!). I know that this probably isn't a statistically relevant sub-section of the gaming community but if 75 odd people are 50/50 I think it should be diced for in a tourney. Although this should be cleared up in 5th edition with the rumoured clarification in the Feel No Pain USR.

In the mean time it makes sense for our group to play it as them receiving no feel no pain roll to shots twice their toughness as the other interpretation doesn't seem instinctual or RAI to us.

60/40 is the new 50/50?

it makes a model immune to suffering the effects of Instant Death.

One of the effects of "instant death" as noted above is that FNP rolls can not be used against it. The part of the rule is in the FNP wording but it is still an effect of instant death.

If a model is immune to the effects of Instant Death then all effects from it are ignored, including the negation of FNP.

Except that Feel No Pain is not an effect of the Instant Death rule. The only effect listed in the text on the Instant Death rule is the affected model being removed from the board as a casualty.

One condition that negates Feel No Pain is the wound being caused by a weapon that inflicts Instant Death, that has a Strength value twice or more the model's Toughness value.

As I have shown using two diagrams, a derivation of the rules and a flowchart of the rules, the Feel No Pain rule is not conditional upon the Instant Death rule.

These rules are concurrent and share the condition of being wounded by something that has a Strength value twice or more the model's Toughness value.

Hence being immune to the Instant Death rule does not make the model's Feel No Pain roll categorical.

So yes, actually, the fact that the part of the rule, one condition for negating the Feel No Pain roll, is part of the Feel No Pain rule, and not the Instant Death rule, means that Feel No Pain is not an effect of Instant Death.

Nurglitch wrote:60/40 is the new 50/50?

As I said its a statistically small portion of the community...

Close enough to it that you'd dice for it, or phone a friend

No one is saying Feel no Pain is an effect of Instant Death... not sure where you got that from.

What is being said is cause and effect.

Effect=the negation of or inability to use Feel No Pain.

Cause=wound causing Instant Death.

Cause and effect. This cannot be denied. The effect caused by ID is that one cannot use Feel No Pain on that wound. If one is immune to ID then there is no cause to the effect and thusly the model gets it's FNP roll.

FYI this came up with the old Slaanesh Combat Drugs providing the ability to shrug off a wound per turn, combined with the 'no instant death' wargear causing even a high strength hit to be irrelevant.

GW ruled then it was a legal combination, and as Yak (correctly) points out you cannot negate a special rule with a special rule that has itself been negated by another special rule.

You have played GW games before, right? This is how they work, fellas.

Now if it was a S10 hit in CC that did not have the power weapon effect, you'd get to FNP it. Currently only Ork Tankhammers have this effect, but it is another example.

DaIronGob:

You said: "One of the effects of "instant death" as noted above is that FNP rolls can not be used against it."

So yes, you are in fact saying that negating Feel No Pain is an effect of Instant Death.

But let's talk about "cause and effect", or more accurately when talking of rules: "conditions and effects".

What does the text of the rule say?

[quote=Feel No Pain]This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict Instant Death (those with a Strength double or more the model's Toughness) or against close combat weapons that allow no Armour Save (such as power fists, powers swords, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending attacks that roll a 6 to hit, etc).

Was there a point? I see 10 lines of nurgibberish and no point.

Please use laymans english not attempted hoighty toighty nurgibberish, so when someone actually reads your posts they don't wander away wondering just wtf it was that guy said.

I think you said FNP is removed by a double toughness hit which for demons is incorrect, but I really can't tell.

So what's giving you trouble with your reading-comprehension, Stelek? Anything you'd like explained?

Nurglitch wrote: Eternal Warrior makes a model immune to (the effects of) Instant Death...

Wow dude, you don't get to ADD WORDS to the RAW just to win an argument. The fact that you went that far to prove a point (and fail, I might add) is jusr vindication for everyone who disagrees with you.

PS: I went to Cali for three days and you guys couldn't let it drop??? lol

Who's adding words? We've established that being immune to the effects of Instant Death is the same thing as being immune to Instant Death. If it makes you more comfortable, I can edit "(the effects of)" out of my post.

Nurglich is right.

In order for an immunity to become utilized a target must first be inflicted with whatever the immunity protects against. The triggering situation still occurs, it just has no effect. A model with EW can still have ID inflicted upon it, it just doesn't die. That same model would be stripped of the benefits of FNP.

A bullet can be lethal (ID).
A cop has a bulletproof vest (EW).
The cop also has a life insurance policy that is voided if he ever gets shot (FNP).

He gets shot by a hood. His vest rendered him immune to the bullet but he still loses his insurance coverage.

Nurgibberish always throws me off.

I don't understand your point(s) since you don't clearly state them.

Here's an example of clearly stating a point:

Feel No Pain on Demons works against all non-power weapon hits inflicted regardless of source or strength.

Have a nice day!

Hilarious. You had 'instant death' inflicted but you didn't...sorry, did you fail...boy did you ever.

Stelek:

I think I can see what's confusing you.

I was not stating a point, I was explaining how the conclusion I've reach is correct, given the text of the rules and their logic.

In addition, I also explained how the opposite conclusion is incorrect and what sort of mistake is involved in reaching that conclusion.

This is what is called a constructive discussion of rules.

Instead of simply stating your own conclusion and then churlishly mocking other people's opinions, a constructive discussion involves offering an explanation of your own position, and offering analysis of dissenting positions in an effort to decide the truth of the matter.

Arstahd:

That's an apt analogy.

Guh. I can't handle the nurgibberish, there's a whole paragraph of uselessness.

yakface wrote:
The people who are voting 'no' here are playing as though the FNP rule reads something like:

"Feel No Pain cannot be used against attacks that would cause instant death".


That IS NOT what the rule actually says. If the wound inflicts instant death, then FNP cannot be used.

Does a S10 hit vs. a Beat of Nurgle (T5, 2W) actually inflict instant death on the model?

Of course it doesn't.

If someone tried to deny the beast of Nurgle his FNP save against such a wound what would be the rationale? That the beast suffered instant death but then ignored that effect?

That isn't what the FNP rules say! If instant death is not "inflicted" on the model, then the FNP save may be used.

Wow. Four pages in this thread and yak made the right call way back on page one.... I think Nurglitch, et al, are trying to pull meaning out of the rule's wording that just isn't there... Yak's reasoning and justification are the only ones, as I see it, that take the rule interactions correctly into consideration.

Cheers.