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Deadshane1 wrote:That doesnt change the fact that there is a threat. If WW's posed no threat or very little threat you might likely ignore them and shoot at the Avatar instead or some troopers or whatever else was "threatening" your troopers.

*shakes head*

No.

See, the reason they're no good is because they're too dangerous and too fragile. There are other units in the Eldar Codex that can cause similar damage that won't die a turn later, or weapon platforms that will cause the same or more damage over time, yet will be much, much harder to kill.

This is where list design comes into it. There are a lot of units in every Codex that are all very dangerous in their perferred environment. But a lot of these units are very specific, and there are often other choices within the same armies that can do equivalent or better jobs with more reliability and consistency. Would you rather have a one-hit-wonder unit, or a unit that will cause the same damage yet not give up their VP's/Kill Points in a turn?

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:War walkers are a great alpha strike unit which are situationally very surviveable when used correctly against the right opponant.

That's the most long-winded 'USE TACTICS' I've ever heard anyone say.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:War walkers are a great alpha strike unit which are situationally very surviveable when used correctly against the right opponant.

That's the most long-winded 'USE TACTICS' I've ever heard anyone say.

BYE

Sometimes you have to spell it out for people.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:That doesnt change the fact that there is a threat. If WW's posed no threat or very little threat you might likely ignore them and shoot at the Avatar instead or some troopers or whatever else was "threatening" your troopers.

*shakes head*

No.

See, the reason they're no good is because they're too dangerous and too fragile. There are other units in the Eldar Codex that can cause similar damage that won't die a turn later, or weapon platforms that will cause the same or more damage over time, yet will be much, much harder to kill.

This is where list design comes into it. There are a lot of units in every Codex that are all very dangerous in their perferred environment. But a lot of these units are very specific, and there are often other choices within the same armies that can do equivalent or better jobs with more reliability and consistency. Would you rather have a one-hit-wonder unit, or a unit that will cause the same damage yet not give up their VP's/Kill Points in a turn?

BYE

H.M.B.C., I dunno what you're shaking your head at. We both realise that WW's are extremely fragile...we BOTH seem to realise that they pose a very real danger to the opposing army if left to their own devices. You DID just say they were dangerous, that means they pose a threat, which is all I was saying.

Using area terrain as it was in 4e it was difficult to keep them alive but not impossible when you maintain maximum ranges and deployed them carefully, I've played them throughout the release of the latest eldar codex up to now, in friendly play AND tournement play. 6 of them helped to carry me to the final round of the 'Ard Boyz tournement here in the U.S. last year. They've won me countless RTT Best Generals and Overall wins. Lastly, there is NOTHING in the heavy support section of the eldar codex that can spit out the destructive power that these things lend to an army when supported by a farseer, Eldrad guiding 6 WW's with scatterlasers is so destructive it almost feels like cheating.

Maybe they dont appeal to everyone, but they appeal to me, and I've learned how to use them. Maybe they ARENT the BEST heavy support unit out there...but they ARE good, and dangerous...in 4e.

The whole reason I started this thread was to see if anyone has any ideas on how to run them in 5e. I see their survival rate going down now due to the new Line-of-Sight rules...and this WILL make them simply too hard to run. (IMHO) The only exception being the cheap-o unit with scatterlasers when they outflank....then, maybe. However, they wont be guided in that case and "guide" is what makes WW's really cool and destructive.

Played a couple of 5th ed games, and it really depends on your terrain. Both War Walkers and Wraithlords can find cover if you look for it. I was able to get some good cover saves behind trees, but the best was ruins that covered about 50% of the models. We even had a case where an Avatar was running across open ground, but no one could draw line of sight to him because of terrain and other models in the way. It's not nearly as bad as most people think.

The best thing about it vs V4 is that instead of just taking glances on your WW and Vypers, those hits are now discounted. I took 6 hits on em, and only ended up getting two glances out of the mix, which most likely previously would have destroyed my walkers. Cover can make WW and Vypers much more survivable. Are they any more effective? Well, not horribly so, but in the open they don't get any worse, and behind cover much much better, which means I gain more use out of them.

Can you Fortune the Walkers as well?

BYE

Yes, if you can get them in a decent location that affords them a cover save.

For me, they become very game situational. I'll most likely need to tune my army to field an Autarch. If I'm getting first turn, they may start on the table, but I'm still not 100% certain that will be a given. If they can get a cover save from the beginning, probably. If I'm going 2nd, they most likely will start off table and outflank (main reason for the Autarch). Flanking has given me so much flexability for set up. Right now, the Scatter/Shuriken Cannon combo puts out a good amount of firepower for 150 points. Downside, they are in range and get smacked. Eldar Missile Launchers may be my way of mitigating this (although more costly). I can flank into the corners of the table (or where ever my opponent doesn't have anything) and shoot will relatively little/no fear of return fire.

Out of all the heavy support in my Eldar army, only the Fire Prism and Vibro Cannons have been written off (except for Apocolypse style, bring everything you've got). The War Walker still (yep, ran them in 4th) has a place in my army.

Just a crazy idea, but I'm really excited to try out an Eldar army that starts completely off the table. Flank with 9 War Walkers and 30 Scorpions inside Wave Serpents (still giddy with excitement after reading units can flank with their dedicated transports). Throw in 2 Autarchs and the whole army comes in from Reserve on a 2+ roll for each unit.

What?! scorpions can flank *in* their wave serpents? That is ridiculous.

Back on topic though, I think war walkers have more opportunities to be good in 5th ed, with the chance of having decent 4+ cover. But the likelihood of really getting 4+ cover for a squad of 3, let alone 2 squads of 3 or more, seems to be pretty low, or at least entirely dependent on where you play.

As everybody has said before, having walkers sitting out in the open is always a load of free victory points, and a lot at that.

So, as it stands, they are better than 4th ed, but still get knocked over by strong gusts, and cost a buttload of points.

Even so, at lower point levels - less than 1000, or maybe even up to 1500 - they can be really effective, due to reduced return fire. Sometimes a squad of 2 with 4 EMLs can be nice to hide away, as the size and number of guns are not very formidable, but they can pack a punch into av12 and anything with a 4+ save. Yet whenever you feel you can just throw around a heavy slot to take 2 war walkers, please let me know! If they were FA on the other hand...

But scorpions flanking in serpents and coming in on a 2+...ridiculous!

Screening walkers aint that hard. Serpents or Jetbikes will do.


Eldrad + 2x3 Walkers + 2x Serpent with 10 Scorpions

First turn fortune both Serpents, guide one unit of Walkers and move everything ahead. Serpents give cover to Walkers. Scorps provide distraction.

Second turn Doom on enemy unit, Guide for all Walkers.