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Stelek wrote:Actually this is exactly how VP's worked, for those with the ability to count in their head.

GW declared this miraculous ability to be 'unsporting' and replaced it with 1.

No more complicated 328 + 172 + 59 + 231...and I need to not lose this 175 else he'll win...

Now it's 1 + 1 + 1 + 2...and I need to not lose this 1 else he'll win...

Utter crap if you ask me.

Assuming you know off hand the points values of each opposing unit, remembering how many models were in the unit, remembering what upgrades were in there, which a silly thing to assume about 98% of 40K players.

Stelek wrote:

Actually this is exactly how VP's worked, for those with the ability to count in their head.

GW declared this miraculous ability to be 'unsporting' and replaced it with 1.

No more complicated 328 + 172 + 59 + 231...and I need to not lose this 175 else he'll win...

Now it's 1 + 1 + 1 + 2...and I need to not lose this 1 else he'll win...

Utter crap if you ask me.

It isn't "exactly" how VP's worked, if it was, it would be the same.

The biggest difference is that the game becomes more accessible. I think, because you've played at the tourney level for so long, you completely forget that there are those of us that are playing with friends we are introducing to the hobby. Maybe you have the time to bang off 3 lists a day, at work and can recognize what a units point value is, at a glance. My brother and my friends that play when they roll into town don't. Most don't.

It certainly isn't *just* about adding numbers; it's knowing the points value of the units on the table and *then* adding those up. That takes a lot of investment in the hobby and you need to own all the codexes or, your opponent willing, have a copy of their list in front of you to keep on top of things during the game.

KP, though not exciting does allow for a much more obvious indicator as to who is winning the game with less number crunching during the game.

I agree whole heartedly with Sebter and Hellfury, it's a game I play with beer and scotch while I smoke my pipe. After a three to five hour stretch where our little movie wraps up I don't want to have to tally up points when I'm not-sober and tired. VP's felt like playing a secondary "Price is Right" with my friends to see whose magic number is higher.

I like your idea for KP and also like the possibility of only scoring troops counting for KP's.

I don't think VP's made the game more fun.

Cheers

sebster wrote:

Stelek wrote:Actually this is exactly how VP's worked, for those with the ability to count in their head.

GW declared this miraculous ability to be 'unsporting' and replaced it with 1.

No more complicated 328 + 172 + 59 + 231...and I need to not lose this 175 else he'll win...

Now it's 1 + 1 + 1 + 2...and I need to not lose this 1 else he'll win...

Utter crap if you ask me.

Assuming you know off hand the points values of each opposing unit, remembering how many models were in the unit, remembering what upgrades were in there, which a silly thing to assume about 98% of 40K players.

My opponents give me army lists, and most of those I do play I know what's in their list and can recreate it without the army list if needed.

kid_happy wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Actually this is exactly how VP's worked, for those with the ability to count in their head.

GW declared this miraculous ability to be 'unsporting' and replaced it with 1.

No more complicated 328 + 172 + 59 + 231...and I need to not lose this 175 else he'll win...

Now it's 1 + 1 + 1 + 2...and I need to not lose this 1 else he'll win...

Utter crap if you ask me.

It isn't "exactly" how VP's worked, if it was, it would be the same.

The biggest difference is that the game becomes more accessible. I think, because you've played at the tourney level for so long, you completely forget that there are those of us that are playing with friends we are introducing to the hobby. Maybe you have the time to bang off 3 lists a day, at work and can recognize what a units point value is, at a glance. My brother and my friends that play when they roll into town don't. Most don't.

It certainly isn't *just* about adding numbers; it's knowing the points value of the units on the table and *then* adding those up. That takes a lot of investment in the hobby and you need to own all the codexes or, your opponent willing, have a copy of their list in front of you to keep on top of things during the game.

KP, though not exciting does allow for a much more obvious indicator as to who is winning the game with less number crunching during the game.

I agree whole heartedly with Sebter and Hellfury, it's a game I play with beer and scotch while I smoke my pipe. After a three to five hour stretch where our little movie wraps up I don't want to have to tally up points when I'm not-sober and tired. VP's felt like playing a secondary "Price is Right" with my friends to see whose magic number is higher.

I like your idea for KP and also like the possibility of only scoring troops counting for KP's.

I don't think VP's made the game more fun.

Cheers

Ok, it feels the same to me.

You are correct, and I do own all the Codexes/armies.

You are correct on playing at tournaments has hardened my heart to the "fun" game the Brits play.

I believe it's Apocalypse, and I don't really get excited thinking about how to sweep my armies off the table with the broom (which is a 3' x 4" template that autohits and is Strength D, and generally goes across 2 feet of table before it's removed from the game)....but isn't Apocalpyse in itself a huge investment, just into one army instead of five?

I can have fun with my friends in lots of ways, but the broomsweep that is Apocalypse isn't it.

You seem to play at your house, I play at a store (usually) and thus my ability to smoke or drink (which as a rule I do not) is limited due to the laws in my country.

It's a totally different environment, the US. We are raised in a totally different culture than you or the Brits.

Alot of people call it WAAC syndrome. Thing is, I have the most fun losing.

Last ten years at the GT have been very boring and frustrating.

So I've been trying to make better players by sharing what I know, and bringing a totally ass list.

Maybe I'll have fun for once.

All that said--I don't think KP missions are 'fun' in tournaments (and are pointless when playing with your friends, or should be if you aren't a weenie).

That's my primary concern right now.

My friends and I can choose to ignore a bad rule GW made up.

Except at GW events where it's enforced.

If it was really no problem, there wouldn't be people all over the globe complaining about how stupid it is.

In friendly play, they don't use it.

In competitive play, they want it removed.

I hope this long explanation makes sense.

How about assigning points based on an (admitedly arbitrary) scale system.

So units worth between 1-50 points = 1 point, 51-100 = 2 points, and so on.

This means that it affects all armies in the same way, and you can word it out using your fingers (when drunk at 2am in the morning) without needing a calculator.


Now, if you're doing that, then the old 'why not just have VP's' comes back into it, you have to remember that this is a compromise.

VP's (for some of us) are too complicated, take too long to work out and - the only valid criticism I've heard so far - can slow down tournaments.

KP's are insultingly simplistic, assign a single digit to every unit regardless of its abilities. It tries to make everything equal in a system where there is no equality. The KP system is so fething stupid that I simply cannot believe GW came up... wait... wait... it's GW. Who am I kidding. They come up with good ideas by accident. Bad ideas are par for the course.

So, as a middle ground, a system that does assign single digit values, but its based on the cost of the unit. You don't have to work out whether you got 352 points form this Marine squad, added to the 123 from the Chaplain, and oh wait I killed two Rhinos, so they're 30 points each, but one of them had Extra Armour, so that's 30 and 45.

You just have your army list. You know in advance whether what your units are worth, they're all worth single digits (to be 10 points you'd need a 500 point unit), simple to work out. No fractions or rounding or anything. You can do it while passed out, high on ice at 2am on a Tuesday. Easy.

2nd Ed had a system symilar to this, although it was a little more complex in its construction and they way you did it during the game. I also assume this is what Jervis based the KP system on, but managed to feth it up in the typical GW ham-fisted way they do everything these days.



Or, as another alternative, take every points value you've got, divide by 10, round up to nearest 10.

156 point Marine unit? 15.6 = 16 points. Easy.


It's not hard, and there is plenty of room to find a middle ground between the "complicated" VP system and the idiotic KP system.

BYE

...and everybody will min-max their lists to have that unit cost 150 instead of 151 so it just gives away 1 kp!

anyway, i totally agree with stelek: KP aren't fun, and i just don't play them

and if you're bored by the two other missions: http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/rules%2Dof%2Dengagement/1/

From what I can see, KP remains quite a heated debate, but only between the people who don't like it and the people who absolutely hate it with every fibre of their being!

We had our first 5E tournament here in WA last weekend, and sure enough KP were featured in one of the scenarios. The effect was quite devastating for some armies who were not optimised for it (and of course the Guard who don't have much choice lol), with the result that some games featured armies with up to TWENTY potential KP playing against opponents with 4.

For the record, I still enjoyed the game despite it being my sole loss of the tournie, but didn't enjoy the scoring system.

Its not something I expect us to play here in friendly games, but Stelek is quite correct it is likely to be mandatory at tournaments and therefore some friendly games will have to be invested/squandered in practising for it.

20 Kill Points? Other than guard, what army is running 20 kill points? (I should probably ask what points value was the tourney run at).

For the 1750 list I'm running in BA, I have 10.

DE could easily have 20 KP in 1850

Those raiders are a nice KP gimme to your opponents.

If DE stick to the 4th Ed mindset, sure. There's other stuff in the army...

Stelek wrote:

sebster wrote:

Stelek wrote:Actually this is exactly how VP's worked, for those with the ability to count in their head.

GW declared this miraculous ability to be 'unsporting' and replaced it with 1.

No more complicated 328 + 172 + 59 + 231...and I need to not lose this 175 else he'll win...

Now it's 1 + 1 + 1 + 2...and I need to not lose this 1 else he'll win...

Utter crap if you ask me.

Assuming you know off hand the points values of each opposing unit, remembering how many models were in the unit, remembering what upgrades were in there, which a silly thing to assume about 98% of 40K players.

My opponents give me army lists, and most of those I do play I know what's in their list and can recreate it without the army list if needed.

Yes, Stelek, but the point is that YOU are not 98% of 40k players. Most people play games occasionally, for FUN. It's a game. It's meant to be fun. It's not an international sporting event. You seem to play games very seriously, and very competitively. So you are not the majority of gamers.

I would agree that most players don't know the ins and outs of every army. I don't, and I've been playing for ages. I'd hardly expect a new player to know what his OWN army is worth without a calculator and a codex, let a long someone else's! Many people didn't want to have to calculate VPs at the end of a game. Hell, I didn't. It wasn't a fun part of the game - "let's add up all the figures and see who won". It should be quite obvious who won. And if it's not a fun part of the game, it should go.

See, the thing is, if we honestly WERE all just interested in fun games, there would be NO traffic on this forum except for the modelling section. Just showing up to post here undermines the argument of anyone who claims that fun is their only objective - reasonably, it's possible for casual players to go back to Rogue Trader or use pure homebrew if they don't want to deal with this stuff.

Lormax wrote:If DE stick to the 4th Ed mindset, sure. There's other stuff in the army...

...that isn't nearly as effective.

Other stuff in a DE army?

Like...what?

There's almost no list the DE can field that doesn't involve Raiders.

sebster wrote:
At this point, there’s only one marginal army that’s really hurt by VPs, the IG, and while it sucks for them, the answer isn’t to move to samey, repetitive scenarios. The answer is to make IG a solid army with greater flexibility.
.

Any fully mechanized army gets screwed by KPs as well. My Tau with detachable gun drone D-fish really hate it. My speed freek orks with av10 open topped trukks and buggies hates it. When you get a chaos list with a grand total of 9 KPs vs my 17 in my ork list, it really makes life difficult for us to even want to show up.

Stelek wrote:Other stuff in a DE army?

Like...what?

There's almost no list the DE can field that doesn't involve Raiders.

Either way, thats a 3rd ed codex that should be updated in less than a year. I'm not surprised that GW isn't too worried about the issue, it'll be fixed soon.

Lormax wrote:

Stelek wrote:Other stuff in a DE army?

Like...what?

There's almost no list the DE can field that doesn't involve Raiders.

Either way, thats a 3rd ed codex that should be updated in less than a year. I'm not surprised that GW isn't too worried about the issue, it'll be fixed soon.

Lormax, you have such a sweet sense of fair play and how everything will be better soon.

New to the game?

H.B.M.C. wrote:How about assigning points based on an (admitedly arbitrary) scale system.

So units worth between 1-50 points = 1 point, 51-100 = 2 points, and so on.
BYE

No. noooonononoo. OH no, no, just.....no.

Do you REMEMBER the old chaos codex? How AMAZINGLY CONFUSED people were about the daemon prince thing?

"50 points or less and you are a chaos lord. More than 50, you are a daemon prince"

"But what if I have 51?"

"THEN YOU'RE A FREAKING DAEMON PRINCE YOU SCRUB!"

"You can have up to 100 points of daemonic wargear, and 150 in total"

"I have 105 in daemonic, is that ok?" "NO!"

"Well what's daemonic, then? I'm confused."

"Well, everything here, here, and anything from these sections is daemonic."

".........But what's daemonic? Is THIS daemonic?" "Yes, it's in one of those lists." "Oh. What about THAT, is that daemonic too?"

"YES IT IS YOU LITTLE CRETIN!"



Games Workshop:
"Woah guys, woah, things are getting a bit....complicated here. Hang on a second, I'm going to go back into my restroom and pull out something to use as a new codex, be right back."


Not to derail the thread with a new CSM codex rant, point is that something as "clear-cut" as 1-150=1, 151-300=2 etc doesn't actually end up being as simple as you think. In fact it can be downright disastrous, and codexes have died because of it.

The problem is that everyone here is looking for a perfect system, but there isn't one. Things like transports muddle it all up. Could you make it so dedicated transports don't give kp? Sure you could! But then that Inquisitor's Landraider doesn't count, and everyone's mad. Aside from assigning certain units special rules [Landraiders always give kp, drones off the devilfish don't] there's no blanket system that will work perfectly.

Accepting that we won't have a perfect system, let's think of how we can fix the one we have to be an acceptable one, but keep in mind that for every way you balance it you imbalance it too. Want to make dedicated transports non-kp-giving? BAM marines are all mechanized again, and [edit] Eldar players spam tiny units in grav tanks with deadly weapons because now the bulk of their hitting power doesn't give up points, and they've still got fast carts to send scoring units at objectives in the other scenarios.

Fixing guard is the first step. Problem is I don't think making it 1 kp per platoon is the answer. Now you have to kill some 65 models [in a fully maxed out platoon] to get a single, 1, kp. In a large game featuring mostly infantry guard, you're going to have to work your tail off through a hailstorm of fire just to get a grand total of like 5 KP. While to some that sounds like what they're currently doing with orks or space marines, trust me 220 guardsmen with 4+ cover saves will be a lot nastier, especially since any close combat unit to hit that line will be wiped out the turn after it hits combat due to that OTHER dumb 5th edition rule, no consolodating into fresh units.

Stelek wrote:

Lormax wrote:

Stelek wrote:Other stuff in a DE army?

Like...what?

There's almost no list the DE can field that doesn't involve Raiders.

Either way, thats a 3rd ed codex that should be updated in less than a year. I'm not surprised that GW isn't too worried about the issue, it'll be fixed soon.

Lormax, you have such a sweet sense of fair play and how everything will be better soon.

New to the game?

I'm just sayin, IG codex and DE codex are both slated to be released soon. Would you, as GW, work your butt off to be sure that a couple armies, that you'll be updating shortly anyway, aren't nerfed during the change-over?

I don't agree with everything they do, nor do I stand by KP 100%. I'm just sayin I understand why they aren't doing anything about it right this second.

To touch on Spellbounds idea a couple posts up, transports under 100 points don't give up KP, the others do?

Lormax wrote:To touch on Spellbounds idea a couple posts up, transports under 100 points don't give up KP, the others do?

Eldar player Bob: "Wah, I'm the only army with no transports under 100 points, why are you trying to screw me?"

Ahem, Land Raider

Lormax wrote:I'm just sayin, IG codex and DE codex are both slated to be released soon. Would you, as GW, work your butt off to be sure that a couple armies, that you'll be updating shortly anyway, aren't nerfed during the change-over?

So players with armies that don't work properly in the new edition should just man up?

Yes, if I was GW I'd take the 10 minutes to fix their fething game so everyone who paid for an army has a useable one.

It's called customer service.

"Oh sorry, your 2007 car isn't compatible with the oil we produced this year. Oh and don't forget our handy feth Off sticker, you can put it anywhere you want as you push that baby home."

Yeah. Good call.

Lormax wrote:I don't agree with everything they do, nor do I stand by KP 100%. I'm just sayin I understand why they aren't doing anything about it right this second.

Dude, they've been doing that for years. Maybe if the company completely fails, you'll grasp why it's unacceptable.

Spellbound wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:How about assigning points based on an (admitedly arbitrary) scale system.

So units worth between 1-50 points = 1 point, 51-100 = 2 points, and so on.
BYE

No. noooonononoo. OH no, no, just.....no.

Do you REMEMBER the old chaos codex? How AMAZINGLY CONFUSED people were about the daemon prince thing?

"50 points or less and you are a chaos lord. More than 50, you are a daemon prince"

"But what if I have 51?"

"THEN YOU'RE A FREAKING DAEMON PRINCE YOU SCRUB!"

"You can have up to 100 points of daemonic wargear, and 150 in total"

"I have 105 in daemonic, is that ok?" "NO!"

"Well what's daemonic, then? I'm confused."

"Well, everything here, here, and anything from these sections is daemonic."

".........But what's daemonic? Is THIS daemonic?" "Yes, it's in one of those lists." "Oh. What about THAT, is that daemonic too?"

"YES IT IS YOU LITTLE CRETIN!"



Games Workshop:
"Woah guys, woah, things are getting a bit....complicated here. Hang on a second, I'm going to go back into my restroom and pull out something to use as a new codex, be right back."

ahhh this whole post made my morning sooo much better. My coffee covered keyboard thanks you.

Spellbound wrote:

Lormax wrote:To touch on Spellbounds idea a couple posts up, transports under 100 points don't give up KP, the others do?

Eldar player Bob: "Wah, I'm the only army with no transports under 100 points, why are you trying to screw me?"

are you trying to get me fired?

Lormax wrote:20 Kill Points? Other than guard, what army is running 20 kill points? (I should probably ask what points value was the tourney run at).

For the 1750 list I'm running in BA, I have 10.

Uh, the 1750 list I'm taking to the LVGT has: 12 Vehicles, 9 Units, and an IC... that's 22 KP.

Did you count your retinue with IC as the ever-fun double KP?

I know I am going to have a ball with mine.

Hell I have 10 KP in just my 2 HQ and 3 Elite slots.

8 more in my troops. Does that stupid JO in my guard platoon count as an IC + retinue? I think so.

So that's what, 19 KP? Neat.

Lormax wrote:Ahem, Land Raider

Didn't say they were the only ones with transports over 100, said they were the only one without transports under 100. Marines can take a rhino instead.

Spellbound wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:How about assigning points based on an (admitedly arbitrary) scale system.

So units worth between 1-50 points = 1 point, 51-100 = 2 points, and so on.
BYE

My Tau devilfish is 85 points nekkid. Add two seeker missiles to it and suddenly it gives up a KP because it is now holding two missiles that have nothing to do with the transport in any way shape or form.

Hmm.. that still doesn't even begin to address the detachable gundrone issue.

wight_widow wrote:See, the thing is, if we honestly WERE all just interested in fun games, there would be NO traffic on this forum except for the modelling section. Just showing up to post here undermines the argument of anyone who claims that fun is their only objective - reasonably, it's possible for casual players to go back to Rogue Trader or use pure homebrew if they don't want to deal with this stuff.

I disagree. I think playing for fun also means playing fair games. The rules are very much part of the hobby (as is the modelling) and the problem with playing past or homebrew versions of the game is finding players to play those rulesets with (for the record I have *no* desire to go back to RT or 2ed). Nice to play pick up games at the FLGS where being on the same page is important.

Trust me, casual players get bothered by glaringly unfair rules or broken units.

KP doesn't seem fair for certain armies (IG and apparently DE).

Yakface's KP ratio is a great idea.

Stelek has a wonderful substitute that I'm likely to introduce, in my area.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215251.page

I like it because it is a natural fit for the other missions that have 2-5 objectives, as well.

I really think RTT and GT tournies will be using missions not seen in the BGB and adopting more reasonable missions.

wight_widow wrote:See, the thing is, if we honestly WERE all just interested in fun games, there would be NO traffic on this forum except for the modelling section. Just showing up to post here undermines the argument of anyone who claims that fun is their only objective - reasonably, it's possible for casual players to go back to Rogue Trader or use pure homebrew if they don't want to deal with this stuff.

Except 'fun games' doesn't mean 'games played with no tactical consideration at all'. It means that we don't spend time learning the exact points cost of a chaos space marine tactical squad with 10 guys, aspiring champion with powerfist and standard of khorne. It means we don't mind if a game produces a few screwy moments if it allows us to keep track of the score as the game continues.