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warpcrafter wrote:The only way that the fighting between the jews and the arabs is ever going to stop is if one or the other is destroyed.

Funny enough, I think that peace is a possibility but it really lies in the youth and future generations to bring it about. Right now everyone is so wrapped up in the cycle of hate and revenge that they won't really do anything positive. However, what's really funny is that its the rebellious youth that are going to be the ones most likely to stop the fighting. From what I understand, one of the most popular musical acts amongst Palestinian teens is an Israeli rapper. Why? Because it pisses off their parents. The same reason every teenager does anything. I've heard lots of similar crossovers going on between India and Pakistan. So long as their interest in the other cultures can be maintained, I think peace is possible.

Funny thing is, pre-Israel, Jewish/Arab tensions weren't bad at all, certainly nowhere near where they are now.

But along comes Israel, performs several illegal land grabs, and gets away with it. Well, if it happened to your country, wouldn't you get pissed off? I know I would.

Having said that, I do not condone in any way shape or form the targetting of civilians, by anyone or any organisation.

This thread is full of ignorant.

Here is an old international law: when you win the war (and especially when the other guy starts it), you win the land. Anything else is window dressing.

There hasn't been a War.

Just Bullying from Israel thanks to it's support of the West.

Tell you what, I found a very interesting, if potted, History of the Israel/Palestine situation on the BBC Website. Can't find it right now, but it listed the actions of both sides over a timeline.

keezus wrote:Anyone wonder when the Jews will finally leave the Holocaust in the history books? It was terrible, yes, and it should never be forgotten, but it happened over 50 years ago, yet is often leaned on as a crutch to prop up the notion that the Jews are a persecuted people - even today! I can not think of any other nation who was still actively hunting for WWII war criminals well into the 90's - I think that this was only halted by the remaining hiding officers dying of old age.

Too easily is the Holocaust trotted back out amidst cries and allegations of anti-semitism to quell any criticisms against Israel, regardless of its relevance to current events. Untill people can move past this, Israel will forever be painted the victims, and its opponents will forever be painted as the beligerents - and this misconception will continue to add fuel to the conflict.

Persecution of the Jewish people has a longer history than the holocaust. There were pogroms and periods of persecution going back a couple of thousand years. Not that it necessarily justifies or explains Israeli policy, but it's important to remember that the holocaust wasn't an isolated thing, it was just the most extreme instance.

dienekes96 wrote:This thread is full of ignorant.

Here is an old international law: when you win the war (and especially when the other guy starts it), you win the land. Anything else is window dressing.

You might need to send a memo to the Israelis, who have been working towards a two state solution for around a decade now. It's almost as if people living in Israel and dealing with this issue day to day have a more sophisticated notion than some generalisation spouted on the internet.

That is Israel's choice, and I absolutely support a two-state solution. But the Allies won the World War. The Allies chose to create the state of Israel. Several contested that event, on two separate occasions. They lost.

Israel may pursue what course they wish.

You misunderstood my point.

So far Ahtman and dienekes96 are the only people not making me sad in this thread and with whom I at least somewhat agree.
EDIT: And Keezus too.

I say this as a Zionist (in the true sense of the word, not the connotations that have been associated with it since the 1970s), a member of Rabbis for Human Rights and as a supporter of a two state solution.

Oh, and as a Bible Expert.

Flame me if you want, rant if you want, continue this thread if you like, but it's all a load of spoilt hummus.

-edit- deleted by poster. Syrr8766 is correct. This thread is ultimately pointless.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I just wish Israel wouldn't keep provoking their neighbours so. Sure way to end Terrorism is to do as little as possible to deserve the hatred of the extremeists.

Problem is most, if not all, terrorists will kill you for simply existing.

dienekes96 wrote:That is Israel's choice, and I absolutely support a two-state solution. But the Allies won the World War. The Allies chose to create the state of Israel. Several contested that event, on two separate occasions. They lost.

Israel may pursue what course they wish.

You misunderstood my point.

What side was Palestine on during the war?

If memory serves, Palestine was still part of His Majestie's Empire at the time of the War, and part of the deal of emancipation was to sell us some land for Israel.

They were cool with this, to a point. That point when they realised, per head, Israel was going to have more square foot per person than Palestine. It was brought before either the League of Nations or the United Nations (quite shaky on when one fell and the other rose) who agreed with Palestine, and ordered a redrawing of the borders.

At that point, the fledgling state of Israel performed a massive land grab, and haven't given it back since.

Nice huh?

Mad Doc,

You are looking at the wrong war. WWI not WWII set the stage for the eventual formation of the state of Isreal and the conflicts that abound. Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire that fought against the allied powers (Palestine was not a nation in its own right); Jews played a strategic military part in assisting the British in conquering the area referred to as Palestine. The conquered region was then given to (actualy more or less taken by) Britain by the League of Nations to be its protectorate in establishing a joint Isreali/Arab nation under the British Mandate. (The idea of two separate nations didn't occur untill after the Great Arab Revolt in 1936-39). Shortly after WWI, Jews began to immegrate to the area in earnest (growing from 11% of the population to 33%). Violence between the two groups escalated quicky. Also both groups were disatisfied by British rule of the area, accumultaing with the Great Arab Revolt and the Jewish Revolt of 1946. The affects of Arab rebellion were quite grim for both groups. Arab para-militaries attacked 1000s of Isreali settlements early on, resulting in the formation of Isrealis own paramilitary that recipocated similar attrociaties. In the meantime, Britain ruthlessly squashed the rebellion. It was only after this revolt, that the idea of partitioning the state into two separate countries was born as it seemed (to European Powers) that the two groups would not be able to peacefully co-exist. All of this happened prior to WWII an the hostility began long before the "land grab" that occurred during Isreals bid for independence.

After WWII, the UN proposed the un-popular Partition of Palestine into two separate nations, which was opposed by the Arab League, Britain, and Jewish extremists. A year later Isreal declares independence. A day later Isreal gets invaded by all its neighbors. And that is history.

From Wicapedia:
"During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour issued what became known as the Balfour Declaration, which "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people."[43] The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine . Arab opposition to the plan led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of the Jewish organization known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi split off.[44]

In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".[45] The population of the area at this time was predominantly Muslim Arab, while the largest urban area in the region, Jerusalem, was predominantly Jewish.[46]

Jewish immigration continued with the Third Aliyah (1919–1923) and Fourth Aliyah (1924–1929), which together brought 100,000 Jews to Palestine.[37] In the wake of the Jaffa riots in the early days of the Mandate, the British restricted Jewish immigration and territory slated for the Jewish state was allocated to Transjordan.[47] The rise of Nazism in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This influx resulted in the Arab revolt of 1936–1939 and led the British to cap immigration with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine.[37] By the end of World War II, Jews accounted for 33% of the population of Palestine, up from 11% in 1922.[48][49]"