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BigToof wrote:So to those guys who are lucky enough to have a woman (or two) who are interested in play with you, the BEST thing you can do it treat them just the same as all the other guys in the shop, just maybe with a little less trash talk.

Aw cmon! Every female I hang out with already knows that I pull no punches. Why the chivalry?
a) If they want to bitch about equality (which I have no problem with btw) then they get to sit through my motor mouth while I stomp their a**es!
b) I didn't start this hobby to pick up women, and I have yet to see a single female gamer that rates above a drunk 5 (sober 3)

All in all I enjoy the game regardless, and the sh*t talking is just an extension of my loudmouthed personality. I don't go overboard, but I like to crack the occasionall joke, or blast them with always classic "did you see that? yes that really did just happen."

I have met very few women who game. Very few. Most of the ones I have met who gamed without just following their SO around, were absolute assassins.

So, without trying to say girls are icky, or we need more girls playing these games, to stay on topic; yeah I'd say they are relatively rare.

There are fundamental differences between men and women, and not just in what hangs between our legs...

*Most* (not of course *all*, by any means - there's a difference between a society norm and a stereotype), men aren't happy just chatting with mates with nothing else to do. They quickly run out of conversation. So - they have a need for social hobbies such as drinking, sports, wargames, etc. to stimulate conversation and generate banter and so forth.

*Most* (not all, again) women tend not to need these props and are happy to socialise without any other excuse to an extent that would bore the pants off *most* (again, not all) men.

Case in point. Most Thursday evenings my mate comes over to play a game with me. We have a casual game lasting an hour or two and shoot the breeze and sink a couple of beers. Quite often my wife will take the opportunity to pop across the road and spend the evening with his wife. They'll not play a game, but instead just chat - probably bitching about all the other women in the village. They may even do it over a cup of tea and not even a *proper* drink!

To that extent, women don't seem to feel the need to engage in social hobbies such as wargaming that men do. Consequently because it tends not to scratch an itch for them, they don't see the point in bothering with it.

Of course, I re-emphasise, this is my observation of social norms. Not anything scientific, and I am well aware that between the two extremes of behaviour I observe, there are a million shades of grey!

Just my beliefs based on wondering why the heck I can't get my wife to join in wargaming with me really. Thank goodness I've got two sons...!

Tacobake wrote:Here is one, I am tempted to self quote in my sig. Sorry if it rude:

Tacobake wrote:"If you can get them to give you a blow job, you can get them to play your game."

Is the inverse true? If I can get someone to game with me...

General Hobbs wrote:But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Nothing like the smell of fresh-baked bigotry in the morning! I think it would be ridiculous to judge everyone on a case-by-case basis.

General Hobbs wrote:

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Our experience has been that they are not fun to game with, they bring drama to the club, they are more concerned with socialzing rather then gaming, and just bring down the whole experience.

It's the same when watching football.....hardly any women understand the strategy, and all they do is giggle and talk about watching the men's asses in the tight pants.

Now, play some games like Settlers of Cataan, or Monoply or Boggle, and women are fine to game with...except when they start losing and get bored and whiny.

You could just put the kabosh on whiny melodramatic people rather than type a person
on sex. I've seen the exact behaviors you describe in men as well, you just don't see it
as often because your gaming group has had time to work those behaviors out of them.

Theory: men spend more time wargaming than women because there are already more
men wargaming than women. Men spend more time wargaming than women because more
men have taken part in wars than women historically.

Women know plenty of strategy, it's just they don't know how it applies on a fake battlefield
with fake rules written by people imagining fake wars.

If you think women spend more time sitting around talking without actually doing anything,
just think of who's represented on these forums. We do the same thing with a game and a
hobby that we aren't actually playing at the moment that we post things.

So I agree with part of your post.

I agree with grumpy old fart. Different strokes for different folks, thats it.

stonefox wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

Hey man, those are just stereotypes. I don't know about you but in MY local GW, everyone is a bodybuilder or football player.

Definitely NOT going to visit you FLGS, I've still got the scars from high school!

Typeline wrote: I will say that in all my years of gaming I have only ever gamed with one woman who wasn't a total drain on the game I was playing. When I see a woman sit down at a gaming table, be it 40k, DnD, or anything that isn't a board game, they have completely ruined it for me. Not the game per se, just the entire experience of the game.

I've only ever played one game of 40k with a woman. She had no idea what was going on, her boyfriend kind of thrust her into it. Seemingly against her will.

I hate to say it, but I'm prejudice from all my experiences with women in the hobby. Many of them have been exactly like this. I've had women who didn't show up to games, women who didn't know the rules, a LOT of women who were forced into it by their SO, or were co-dependently following along, I've had women wreck campaigns by deliberately forfeiting games to the other side. I'm sure that there are wonderful women out there, and some of the play wargames, but I haven't met them, and I've been doing this a long time.

P.S.: I just read this... I'm a douche.

Maybe, but I tend to agree with you, maybe I'm a douche too, or maybe we're just a big douche bag of truthiness!

Kilkrazy wrote:
I like to be a girl when I role-play.

Sounds like you play a lot of MMORPGs (Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls)

Lint wrote:

BigToof wrote:So to those guys who are lucky enough to have a woman (or two) who are interested in play with you, the BEST thing you can do it treat them just the same as all the other guys in the shop, just maybe with a little less trash talk.

Aw cmon! Every female I hang out with already knows that I pull no punches. Why the chivalry?

Then no kid gloves. Personally, I know that I can be very offensive, so I tend to try to temper it a bit. This goes doubly for the women I've met, in my experience they've more sensitive. So I don't think it's chivalry, any more than it's a matter of treating everybody as well as possible.

Osbad wrote:There are fundamental differences between men and women, and not just in what hangs between our legs...

*Most* (not of course *all*, by any means - there's a difference between a society norm and a stereotype), men aren't happy just chatting with mates with nothing else to do. They quickly run out of conversation. So - they have a need for social hobbies such as drinking, sports, wargames, etc. to stimulate conversation and generate banter and so forth.

*Most* (not all, again) women tend not to need these props and are happy to socialise without any other excuse to an extent that would bore the pants off *most* (again, not all) men.

Maybe, I can tell you that my gf likes to quilt, and that's a huge source of conversation between her and my mother. They spend a ton of time going over fabric, tools, quilting books, etc.

Kilkrazy wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

I like to be a girl when I role-play.

so does stonefox.. that's the ironic part..

malfred wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Our experience has been that they are not fun to game with, they bring drama to the club, they are more concerned with socialzing rather then gaming, and just bring down the whole experience.

It's the same when watching football.....hardly any women understand the strategy, and all they do is giggle and talk about watching the men's asses in the tight pants.

Now, play some games like Settlers of Cataan, or Monoply or Boggle, and women are fine to game with...except when they start losing and get bored and whiny.

You could just put the kabosh on whiny melodramatic people rather than type a person
on sex. I've seen the exact behaviors you describe in men as well, you just don't see it
as often because your gaming group has had time to work those behaviors out of them.

Theory: men spend more time wargaming than women because there are already more
men wargaming than women. Men spend more time wargaming than women because more
men have taken part in wars than women historically.

Women know plenty of strategy, it's just they don't know how it applies on a fake battlefield
with fake rules written by people imagining fake wars.

If you think women spend more time sitting around talking without actually doing anything,
just think of who's represented on these forums. We do the same thing with a game and a
hobby that we aren't actually playing at the moment that we post things.

So I agree with part of your post.

women spend 85% of the time thinking of doing stuff. men spend 35% of the time thinking of doing stuff. it's a fact women use their brains more than men do, so we need something to occupy the other 65% of the time.. so, we oogle girls, push around plastic soldiers and make up stories about playing against women..

My wife tried SO hard to get into this hobby when we first met. It was painful for me to watch, and I encouraged her to try to find something more entertaining, because she thought she would "participate" be coming to watch me play. Even for me, watching a 40k game is like watching paint dry unless the players are really pushing to keep it going fast. Man, she banged her head against that wall, but the wall won. Now she just likes to shovel the kids off into playlnd so we can paint every so often.

My wife plays and runs D&D games, used to work at a Wizards of the Coast store, and used to play both 40k and Fantays (Dark Eldar and Vamp Counts). She got out of the hobby for a number of reasons, the top was that other gamers where obviously treating her very differently. If they weren't hitting on her the whole game they were carrying out some kind of crazy "ain't no woman gonna beat me at a man's game" vendetta. She did have a number of good normal opponents but the others kept rearing the ugly head. So eventually she just gave up and is content with playing D&D and telling me what a crappy painter I am (then proving it by fixing it in 10 seconds, doh!)

I have known several female gamers that have gone through this, but on the flip side I have also seen the aformention trainwrecks that will ruin any game they come across (table top, rpg, online).

So my advice would be to treat the rare female gamer you come across the same as you would any other.

p.s. Just played in a tournament last month and my first game was against a girl playing a fantasicly painted Sisters of Battle army. And while she wasn't fully experienced with them I thoroughly enjoyed the game and don't think her being a women (smoking hot one at that) had any affect on the game whatsover.

two_heads_talking wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

I like to be a girl when I role-play.

so does stonefox.. that's the ironic part..

Nice try. You won't get to be big spoon anytime soon.

women spend 85% of the time thinking of doing stuff. men spend 35% of the time thinking of doing stuff. it's a fact women use their brains more than men do, so we need something to occupy the other 65% of the time.. so, we oogle girls, push around plastic soldiers and make up stories about playing against women..

Yep. I'm going to go ahead and assume 90% of these stories are fakeposts.

We've got a goodly amount of women who come into our flgs for game night, but only one of them plays GW games...

She's a pierced, tattooed ex-stripper (I suspect I'm the only other gamer there who knows she used to "dance.") She's freaking awesome.

And poo on you if you don't believe me!

the part time staffer a tmy local GW is a woman

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:the part time staffer a tmy local GW is a woman

back in early 2000 my wife to be walked in to a GW store that had just opened and hiring, and when they found out she played they offered her an assistant manager spot right there!

I think a lot of the attitudes here are horrifying.
I've played RPGs and Wargames with/against MANY women in my time

One was a nearly 70 yr old woman who would sh**-stomp you with her [crappily painted ---BY HER] Necrons back in 4th ed). The other female member of that wargaming group was a NOT smoking-hot but VERY attractive late 30's woman. She could sh** stomp you, too... but with whatever she was playing and in whatever system. She had an incredible grasp pf strategery and rules. If you weren't on top of your game, you were crushed under hers.

As for RPG's... the only times I EVER had a D&D campaign that DIDN'T have females was when they were run at my (or a friend's) house. There were no LOCAL girls who played (that we knew of).

Only one girl I've ever RPGed with was nerdy. A friends wife who played D&D before they met (and they did NOT meet through gaming, either, oddly enough). They ranged from "smoking-hot" to "not particularly attractive." I NEVER experienced the Nerd Rage at them beating someone, and I NEVER saw ANY of them hit on by gaming guys, simply because they were female. Even the "smoking-hot" ones. I guess I was fortunate like that.

Here's what I find the scariest and funniest about most posts in this thread. Everyone who talks about WHY females aren't "allowed" in their group or why females are bad as gamers or anything else related to negativity about females in relation to gaming has blamed it ON the females... but most of the problems that they say female gamers "cause" are ACTIONS TAKEN BY MALE GAMERS.

It sounds to me like MALE GAMERS are the problem with RPG's & Wargames Not females.
Maybe, instead of osctacising them, you can man-up, de-nerdify yourself & friends, start threating these women like PEOPLE and GAMERS and not like "OOh! Look! Wimmins!" Maybe you'll find that it's not as bad as you think.

FWIW, my current D&D group has 2 women. One plays a male fighter (she is in it for the ROLE playing) and the other plays a female thief. NEITHER tries to use her "womanly charms," either IN game or OUT to get what she wants.

So, grow up, people. The problemisn't the women. It's you.

Eric

P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

People with bad social skills gather into groups of common interest and low standards. Those people then play 40k and act like women are ethereal beings that simply are too different to enjoy the things they enjoy. It has nothing to do with their rudeness, hygiene, looks, interests, or social skills.

Its because of the warhams.

I take a modicum of pride in my cleanliness, appearance, and fitness, and I have women friends (and while single at the moment have had plenty of interaction with the fairer sex in my time). I have also been a ccg/tabletop/mmo gamer heavily since I was 10.

The overweight gamer with bad social skills isn't a stereotype. It's simply the reality of the hobby space. There are always exceptions, as there are in anything (like stonefoxes ironman FLGS) but the sheer fact that the typical gamer wonders why cute girls don't play warhams with him floors me. There is an ammount of social competitiveness and solitude that the game requires that isn't particularly palatable to many women but I know far to many girls that are simply "afraid" of the cheeto stained fingers of the games store goers to ever step in with them.

women spend 85% of the time thinking of doing stuff. men spend 35% of the time thinking of doing stuff. it's a fact women use their brains more than men do, so we need something to occupy the other 65% of the time.. so, we oogle girls, push around plastic soldiers and make up stories about playing against women..

I made up bigoted and non sensical stereotypes too once. True story.

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

There are always exceptions, as there are in anything (like stonefoxes ironman FLGS)

I really wish it WAS that way. Then maybe I don't have to go to the gym to see the goods. There's only Dan who plays Rugby, me the lifter, and John the bodybuilder. All the rest are the typical ones. :(

Wow. I just totally had a flashback to that rather disturbing beach volleyball scene in "Top Gun..."

Good. Because it's exactly like that. Usually it's 2v2 but when it becomes 3v3 or 4v4 with a couple frat guys, some of them start doing these weird, oddly homoerotic dances when they score a point. Also high fives.

stonefox wrote:It's fun being able to play some beach volleyball, then take a break and do nerdy stuff, then play some tackle football afterwards.

Wow. I just totally had a flashback to that rather disturbing beach volleyball scene in "Top Gun..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEA-jhwsoGc

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

I can fly.

i think stephen lynch says it best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_hlWl1PKfo&feature=related

enjoy, YMMV

Shuma - Yeah, like I'd believe that.

THT - AWESOME. WOW. I need to get my rapping friend and the campus beatboxing kid together to do that.

Commisar00 wrote:We have a few females who play at the FLGS and most are girlfriends/wives. I think the big problem is that when any girl, let alone a cute girl walks in most of the guys go into staring/dribbling mode and scare them off. Not all of the guys but enough to make things uncomfortable. When people are uncomfortable they don't want to be there and when this feeling is associated with something i.e. gaming they don't want to be a part of it.

This is true. And scares me to death personally. Especially at the game club. ...And on top of that, they automatically assume I have no knowledge of the game or its background. I don't know where you guys are, but here in the middle of Rochester, the wargamers are often downright sexist or just ...

Yeah. It bugs me. They're either awkwardly trying to use pick-up lines, trying to walk me through the game (I know what the Speed of Asuryan is. Thank you, but after the 4th time it's getting a bit repetitive) or trying their best to make me leave with snide comments.

Meh. It's the same on the internets too. I've gotten quite a few unwanted comments. It's like it's not ok to be female and play Warhammer as well. I honestly don't understand the logic behind it.

However, Warhammer doesn't have to be a geek's sport.

I guess me and my friends (Gotten quite a few players, actually. Come to think of it) approaches things from a very casual perspective. We're playing Warhammer Fantasy at the moment because we're attracted to the various ...painting and modeling aspects of the game, in addition to the game itself. My best friend, for example, is working on a King Arthur themed Bretonnian army, complete with each and every Knight of the Round Table as a miniature. We play for fun, we play by the rules, but we're all pretty much students first and gamers second. We're about a 50-50 mix in terms of gender. Current, we've got an Ancient Chinese styled High Elf army, the KotRT themed Bretonnians, some sort of J.R.R. Tolkenesque Dwarven clan and a Zorro/Landsknecht Empire player. A 5th may be joining us shortly with the lost city of El Dorado.

Most of us are still in the small 1-1.5k point range and are just beginning to paint, so we aren't technically "players." We're hobbists.

chicks don't really dig the games, yo.

I object.

Go see some of GW's High Elf displays and tell me if you don't feel a twinge of OMG when you see it. Squee. n_____n

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I like to be a girl when I role-play.

Too much info man.

HA ha ha ha,.... me too LOL

I was a complete ditz Night Elf on purpose in WOW for a year, until we got a voip, then I had to speak, and they found out I wasn't a girl. It was the talk of the guild for a year.

DOH, er...

tee hee!

...

Since I have taken up scrapbooking, aka croping and my candle club is going really well!

[/joking]

I've seen a few, and played one....she was good, her Orks almost got me.

Before we got married, my wife would play VTM with us, but I have never been able to get her into ANY aspect of GW. She has no desire to talk about it what-so-ever, but will at least give me honest opinions of any painting I shove under her nose. I think it pisses her off now though that my daughter is painting with me, and since she's 3 and a half, I'll have plenty of time to corrupt her with the background and fluff that will make her actually care about the game.

I have seen in the past two years 4 people get started in the game, just from reading some of the books, so that is my suggestion....if you want women to play on the table with us, get em interested....give 'em Eisenhorn, or the Horus Heresy novels...if they are into SciFi at ALL then the books will hook them, and that leads to other aspects of the hobby.

That and all players that fall under the stereotypical "gamer" or "fan-boy" tag, should be kept away for at least six months, for the saftey and protection of both parties.....The women won't be uncomfortable or drooled/spittled on, and the boys wont explode from seeing a non-pixelated female form that ISN"T their mother.

They're rare in miniature gaming for one major reason.
Women stop playing with toys by the time they are teenagers.

Oh, maybe...

But what do you call: Knitting, Scrapbooking, Candlemaking, Makeup, Karaoke...

???

Those are called fine arts.

Augustus wrote:Oh, maybe...

But what do you call: Knitting, Scrapbooking, Candlemaking, Makeup, Karaoke...

???

Not toys, I'll tell you that much.

Also, what's wrong with Karaoke?