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Again, there is no such thing as a "normal" rule. Until an FAQ clears this up, its up to a per person interpretation.

^ yup.

Yes, absolutely no rules that vehicles normally follow for firing weapons. None at all. None whatsoevever.

Nurglitch I don't understand why you're so dead set against this.

Normally a vehicle who is shaken cannot fire any weapons, however with POTMS it may fire one.

Normally a vehicle who has fired smoke cannot fire any weapons, however with POTMS it may fire one.


How do the rules differentiate between those two sentences?

Yes, I agree this is counter to the intentions of the rules, however for someone who is such a dyed in the wool fan of RAW I would think you would see it this way as well.

Kyvik:

I'm not dead set against anything. I'm just pointing out that the statement "Normally a vehicle who has fired smoke cannot fire any weapons, however with POTMS it may fire one" is false if we follow the rules as they're stated in the rule books.

What is the difference?

Well, let's belabour what I had thought was some simple algebra. Take the number of weapons that a vehicle can normally fire given its Type, Speed, and Damage, and call this variable x.

Now take the number of weapons that a vehicle can fire given some special rule such as the Power of the Machine Spirit. Call this variable y, and in the case of the Power of the Machine Spirit, y=1.

So the total number of weapons that a vehicle can fire is z, and z=x+y.

So what is going on when a Land Raider is Shaken? Easy, z=(x+y)-x, z=1.

But a vehicle that has used its Smoke Launchers cannot fire any weapons, and, unlike the Power of the Machine Spirit rule, makes no distinction between the weapons that a vehicle can normally fire (x) and the weapons that require a special rule to fire (y).

Therefore a Land Raider with the Power of the Machine Spirit using its Smoke Launchers can fire a total of 0 weapons, because z=(x+y)-(x+y).

Basically, using a Smoke Launcher is not a case of what might normally permit however many weapons a vehicle can fire, whereas being Shaken (a value of Damage) is a case of what might normally affect however many weapons a vehicle might fire.

May I ask what I am doing to make this unclear?

Kyvik wrote:Nurglitch I don't understand why you're so dead set against this.

Normally a vehicle who is shaken cannot fire any weapons, however with POTMS it may fire one.

Normally a vehicle who has fired smoke cannot fire any weapons, however with POTMS it may fire one.


How do the rules differentiate between those two sentences?

Yes, I agree this is counter to the intentions of the rules, however for someone who is such a dyed in the wool fan of RAW I would think you would see it this way as well.

I actually do see where he's coming from. On page 58 of the rulebook it says:
"the number of weapons a vehicle can fire in the shooting phase depends on how fast it has moved in that turn's movement phase."
So according to the rules, a stationary vehicle may fire all, a vehicle moving at combat speed may fire one, etc. PoTMS allows you to fire that plus one. The rules imply that those are the "normal" conditions for shooting, and PoTMS adds one to that.

On the other hand I disagree with the use of "normal" in this case. I think that they only added in "normally may be permitted" to stop an infinite regress. If the codex just said "The land raider may always fire one extra weapon" it would beg the question "well not that it's fired that one more weapon, may it now fire one MORE weapon? RAW says it can always fire one more weapon..."

This rule really does seem to be fully unclear. Both power of the machine spirit and smoke launchers are special rules that override the standard rules, and in which order they do so isn't specifically mentioned anywhere in the book. On one hand, you could argue that PoTMS is a 'lesser' override, and that it occurs before smoke launchers (meaning you are prevented from firing (x+1) guns). On the other hand, you could just as easily make the argument that codex rules trump BRB rules, and PoTMS would come afterwards (you can fire no guns + 1, meaning one gun).

I'd say this rule is just plain not clear, and requires an official or unofficial ruling to sort out.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

I'd suggest that it's clearer if you try to express the two position algrebraically; as the difficulty in representing the Codex trumps Rulebook argument may also suggest.

If that doesn't work, try interpretive dance.

oh magic eight ball what is the anwer? can PotMS be used with smoke launchers to get an extra weapon shooting? ... "you're going to die" ... may be i shouldn't have asked

http://lord.xopl.com/ulpage3a/8-ball.html if you want a go

Mod:
Ok guys, stay on topic please
Mod off

Nurglitch wrote:

So what is going on when a Land Raider is Shaken? Easy, z=(x+y)-x, z=1.

...

Therefore a Land Raider with the Power of the Machine Spirit using its Smoke Launchers can fire a total of 0 weapons, because z=(x+y)-(x+y).

May I ask what I am doing to make this unclear?

This attempt at defining a function to describe the number of shots a LR is very unclear. In your descriptions, you actually have two different functions (z=y and z=0) which are not consistent.

Describing a conditional function may make it more clear:

s(a,b,c)=c*a+b

alternatively you could interpret the appropriate function as

s(a,b,c)=c*(a+b)


Where
c is defining the state of using smoke launchers (0 if you have 1 if you have not)
a is defining the number of shots normally you get to shoot
b is defining the number of shots allowed by other rules
s(a,b,c) is the number of shots allowed to fire


a and b are obviously more complicated functions than described here, but that is not really the crux of the argument at hand.

Also, I thought this response to my question was particularly amusing. John must be able to read minds. If this is going to get FAQ'd this is probably how things are going to go. Not that I agree with it from a rules point of view.

From: Spif
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:09 AM
To: askyourquestion
Subject: Question



How many shots does a Land Raider normally get to fire after having
popped smoked in the same turn?



Hello,

A Land Raider that uses its smoke launchers cannot fire that turn, not
even with Power of the Machine Spirit.



Thanks!



John Spencer

Customer Service Specialist



Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve
you better!



Games Workshop

Customer Service

6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A

Glen Burnie MD 21060



Games Workshop Customer Service is open:

Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST



Contact info:

1-888-248-2335

custserv@games-workshop.com



Or visit us online at:

www.games-workshop.com <http://www.games-workshop.com/>

_____

Spif wrote:
Describing a conditional function may make it more clear:

s(a,b,c)=c*a+b

alternatively you could interpret the appropriate function as

s(a,b,c)=c*(a+b)


Where
c is defining the state of using smoke launchers (0 if you have 1 if you have not)
a is defining the number of shots normally you get to shoot
b is defining the number of shots allowed by other rules
s(a,b,c) is the number of shots allowed to fire

This is what I was trying to say. you either get (c*a)+b or c*(a+b). The order in which the two conditions are applied isn't specified anywhere. The "normal" argument seems to make sense to me, even though I think (as i said) that normally is simply there to forbid an infinite loop of:

# of guns = # of guns + 1

On the other hand, smoke launchers are in the BGB, while PoTMS is codex, and codex>BGB?

So ya, I'd just go with the customer service ruling on this: c*(a+b)

And thus was Mathhammer born into the material universe.

You guys are just over complicating this. Everyone take out their Occam's Razors, cut out the fat in this thread, and get down to the meat.

RAW seems to indicate that machine spirit will always allow you to shoot at least one weapon regardless of the tank's status. It specifically states that you will be able to shoot at least one more weapon than normal.

So then the question arises...is popping smoke a normal status? It specifically states that you cannot shoot any weapons. Or perhaps the question we should be asking is: Does smoke apply before Machine Spirit or After? In the end there are no officially released rules that state it one way or the other unless you count John Spencer.

Personally, I don't believe you can shoot after popping smoke. It's how I play and how our group plays.

Spif:

I thought it was clear that z=1 where a Land Raider was Shaken, since z is the total number of weapons the Land Raider can fire, and z=x+y, with x being the number of weapons that the Land Raider could normally fire, and y being the number of weapons that the Land Raider could fire thanks to special rules.

This does not contradict z=y, because when a Land Raider has the Power of the Machine Spirit, y=1. If a Land Raider is Shaken, then the number of weapons it can fire is normally 0, as indicated by x-x=0, leaving z=y.

But let's do it the way you suggest (altering it somewhat so that we use the key words used in the text) where:

a is the number of weapons the vehicle may normally fire given conditions of Type, Speed, and Damage.

b is the number of weapons allowed by special rules including the Power of the Machine Spirit.

c is defining the state of using smoke launchers (0 if yes, 1 if no).

s(a,b,c) is the total number of weapons allowed to fire

So we have the options of:

1. s(a,b,c)=c*a+b

2. s(a,b,c)=c*(a+b)

Taking the values of s to be (1,1,0) for a Land Raider that is moving at cruising speed, that is undamaged, and that has used its Smoke Launchers, #1 returns a value of 1, and #2 returns a value of 0.

But the Smoke Launchers rule specifies that the vehicle is prohibited from firing any weapons (a+b), not just the ones that are normally allowed (a).

If it was otherwise, then the rule would not say "The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers," but would say something like 'The vehicle may not fire any weapons that it would normally be permitted [to fire]'.

Basically the Power of the Machine Spirit makes a distinction between the number of weapons that a vehicle would normally be permitted to fire, and the number of weapons that a vehicle would be permitted to fire with the addition of a special rule such as that one.

The Smoke Launchers rule, however, does not make this distinction. Its un-qualified use of the quantified 'any' places the scope of its use over all the weapons a vehicle might fire, rather than any subset.

Otherwise what you are actually figuring for s is s(a,b) = a+b where a(c, d, e, f) = c*(f-d?e)

d is the type of vehicle

e is the speed at which the vehicle is moving

f is the number of weapons possessed by the vehicle

But c is not in s, because s is the number of weapons that a vehicle can normally fire and not all vehicles have Smoke Launchers.

Zip Napalm:

Tzeentch existed before the material universe was hatched. Tzeentch knows the gate. Tzeentch is the gate. Tzeetch is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Tzeentch.

The above exchange must be the best example of taking a rules discussion way waaaaay WAAAAAAY too far.

We have been around common usage of the wordings involved. We have used dictionaries to explore the more uncommon uses. And of all things, now we are trying to use mathematics to present the various points of view.

Let it go, guys.

MODS, IMHO this thread is ready to be locked. All points of view have been presented and neither side seems willing to budge.

Steelmage99:

You are aware that the point of using mathematics is to make the objects of people's points of view clear and well-defined, right?

I think this thread is going somewhere useful, and I'd like to continue the discussion. If you don't want to participate, then don't.

Once again, we have a situation in which two rules appear contradictory. "Normal" as applies to a situation is not defined in the BBB, so the argument has descended to a discussion of what can be interpreted to be normal. Many of the lines of thinking are logical and well expressed, but remain unofficial interpretations.

IMO NAVE686 and his opponent got is exactly right, roll dice to see which rule will prevail for that game and that game only.

JCarter:

Smoke Launchers and the Power of the Machine Spirit are consistent. Smoke Launchers specifically prohibits firing "any of [the vehicles] weapons in the same turn", and the Power of the Machine Spirit specifies "one more weapon than would normally be permitted."

The number of weapons that a vehicle would normally be permitted to fire is defined in the rulebook as the conjunction of its type, speed, and state of damage.

Whether a vehicle is prohibited from firing any weapons by its Smoke Launchers depends on it being part of the special group of vehicles with access to this wargear special rule.

Hence, being prohibited from firing any weapons by Smoke Launchers does not define the number of weapons that a vehicle would normally be permitted to fire.

Conversely, the Smoke Launchers prohibit firing any weapons when they are used, without any exception for weapons that are permitted to fire due to special rules that don't explicitly countermand the effect of Smoke Launchers.

The contradiction appears when we ignore how the basic rules that apply to all vehicles prior to the addition of special rules constitute what is normally permitted.

The wrong answer, wrong here defined by John Spencer in his ruling, appears when we suppose the Smoke Launchers special rule is part of what defines the number of weapons that would normally be permitted.

Naturally it is you, Nurglich, that just can't let it go.

Compensating much, hmm....

Let's stick to the topic, guys, or else the thread will have to be locked.

Please, Space Marine Land Raiders can magically shoot through the wall of smoke which obscures ALL incoming fire?

By that logic, destroyed Land Raiders get to fire one weapon per turn also. Why not? I haven't found anywhere in the books that says a destroyed Land Raider does not have functioning weapons.

Furthermore, the Land Raider which I did not field and is still in my army case would normally get 0 shots. Since it has Machine Spirit, it now gets 1. Unfortunately for you, I have six Land Raiders in that bag.

groz wrote:By that logic, destroyed Land Raiders get to fire one weapon per turn also. Why not? I haven't found anywhere in the books that says a destroyed Land Raider does not have functioning weapons.

You'll never have a destroyed Land Raider on the table.

It's either Wrecked, in which case it is now a wreck, which is treated as a piece of terrain... and there are no rules allowing terrain to fire weapons.
Or it has Exploded, in which case it has been removed from the table.

OK so we have two conditions - stunned/shaken, where the restriction is "may not shoot" and smoke launchers, where the restriction is "may not fire any of its weapons".

Since "may not shoot" is a stricter restriction than "may not fire any of its weapons", and PotMS can override the broader restriction, we can also understand this to mean that PotMS can override the narrower restriction.

Codex rules also override rulebook rules so we cannot rely on defining smoke launchers as a special rule - even if it is, the codex overrides it as occurs in every case where a codex rule and rulebook rule may conflict. In any case special rules are indicated by having the word "special" in the section title ("universal special rules"), the rule type ("mission special rules"), or the rule itself ("a special case").

Finally it is irrelevant to argue whether popping smoke is a normal condition or not. It is normal for a vehicle that has popped smoke to not be allowed to fire any weapons, since this is the rulebook consequence of popping smoke.

This will have to wait for an FAQ since the RAW can be legitimately read in conflicting ways.

Hrm. Algebraically:

F(s) = total shots
b = bolter shots
L = lascannon shots
Sm = smoke
JohnSpencer = actual answer

F(s) = (-b +/- (b^2 - 2L))2*Sm/JohnSpencer

0 = (-3 +/- (9-4))2*0/

So clearly the answer is 0.

Kilkrazy wrote:Let's stick to the topic, guys, or else the thread will have to be locked.

MARNEEZ CALGARY DOESNAHAB 2 NO RETREAT WANDS!1

CHAS SPAZ MRIEENZ R OMMG CHEEZ NEED 2 BUFFS NAOW1

Perhaps you should cut back on the sugary coffee.

Im not sure what the wording is exactly in the codexs that you all have for these rules but -

SMOKE LAUNCHERS can only be triggered at the end of MOVEMENT , the vehicle may not "fire" in the same turn as it is used.

What this means is SMOKE LAUNCHERS go AHEAD of the SHOOTING phase so any conceal and/or appropriate saves can be applied.

and as you may not "FIRE" on the same turn as it is used the PofTMS will have no shots what so ever.

Nurglitch wrote:There would be a conflict between the Power of the Machine Spirit rule and the Smoke Launchers rule if the Power of the Machine Spirit applied universally, rather than just in normal cases.

ordinarily under the circumstances that is! And under ordinary circumstances where a vehicle pops smoke it may not fire any weapons (unless there is a superceding rule found elsewhere).

Smoke launchers are a general piece of wargear which succomb to special rules. Now i am not claiming that there are classifications of wargear. But I am saying that ordinarily smoke launchers have an enumerated affect. The PotMS ordinarily allows a vehicle to fire one more weapon than would ordinarily be permitted. in this case, one weapon may fire, since ordinarily a vehicle without PotMS would not be permitted to fire any weapons.

This is the third or fourth thread to be started on this topic... it must be FAQ'd. OP please read the other threads.

So, smoke launchers abnormally restrict firing and PotMS has an effect on normal firing?