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A game over the weekend came to a point of confusion about the land raider special rule "Machine Spirit" and we are still looking for clarification.

The Situation:
My LR (crusader style) moves 6 inches out of cover and into line of site of an opponets Wave Serpent. I pop smoke and then tell my opponet that under the "Machine Spirit" Special rule I will fire my pintle mounted Melta at his Wave Serpent.

Is the shot legal? The Rule states that a Land raider can always fire one more weapon than is normally allowed. Since the smoke rule states that the land raider cant fire any weapons, but the spcial rule "machine spirit" states that i can fire one more than allowed the shot should count. Or am I a little biased here?

Gimmie your opinions. Sorry there is no actual page quotes here. I' at work and dont have the codex with me.

Imo you aint allowed to shot because of the "smoke rule". MS Rule doesnt overwrite "Smoke Rule".

This is another loophole that needs an FAQ.

As per the Machine spirit rule, you may fire one more weapon than allowed using it.

As per the Smoke Launcher rule, you are not permitted to fire any weapons.

I would personally say you are not allowed any shots due to the Smoke Launcher rules. Some people may say you are allowed the one from the Machine Spirit.

We Rolled it off in the end and I didnt get the oppertunity to take my shots. Honestly I can see both sides to it. I guess the real question is does the smoke rule override everything? On similar exceptions it says verbatim in the rules "unless otherwise stated by a special rule". (See "Heavy" weapon classification in reguards to movement and assault)

The Power of the Machine Spirit rule doesn't state that "a Land raider can always fire one more weapon than is normally allowed". It says that: "A Land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted."

There would be a conflict between the Power of the Machine Spirit rule and the Smoke Launchers rule if the Power of the Machine Spirit applied universally, rather than just in normal cases. The Smoke Launchers rule is a special case and says that: "The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers,".

One more than normal is included in "any", so the Power of the Machine Spirit would not allow a Land Raider that popped smoke to fire a weapon.

My lack of exact wording is because i am at work Nurglitch. But still your logic does not defeat the question.

If a land raider moves at cruizing speed the rules say it can't fire any of its weapons. But then the power of the machine spirit allows it to fire one weapon. Just like if i pop smoke I can't fire any of my weapons. Shouldn't Machine spirit allow it then after that? There is very similar wording if I remember correctly.

Edited underlined word from combat

Nave686:

You might find it helps to discuss this sort of thing when you have the materials available to review.

As for logic defeating anything...

Anyhoo. The difference between a vehicle not normally being permitted to fire any weapons at cruising speed, and not being permitted to fire any weapons if it used its Smoke Launchers is that the Power of the Machine Spirit allows a Land Raider to fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted.

In other words, the Power of the Machine Spirit is an exception to normal cases, not to special cases.

Moving at cruising speed is a normal case. Using Smoke Launchers is a special case. The Power of the Machine Spirit works in the former case, and not the latter.

Actually by your logic, the PoTMS is a special case. So please prove with written rules that it is not allowed its shooting ability if you also use smoke launchers.

When you use Smoke Launchers, you are permitted to fire 0 weapons.

0 + 1 = 1.

Thus, you can fire one weapon after activating Smoke Launchers, if you have PotMS, until they FAQ it.

RAW you get to fire one weapon, but I don't think that's the intention. I'll probably get FAQed to not be allowed.

yeah,
I'm thinking RAI is that your surrounded by smoke and thus the crew can't see so can't shoot...

But POTMS RAW gives a clear example of the landraider 'Crew shaken' still allowing you to fire one weapon.

Crew Stunned

...vehicle may not move nor shoot until the end of it's next player turn.

Smoke launchers

...a vehicle may not fire any of it's weapons in the same turn as it used it's smoke launchers.

Both seem pretty similar to me and shaken kinda gives precidence to being able to shoot...
there is also the Codex trumps BGB arguement...

Still it's a tough call?

Panic...

Edit: I got my stunned and shaken mixed up... again...

Which is my point, there is no rules based answer. I personally would not shoot. My gaming group feels the same way.

Let's look at the relevant text, shall we?

Moving and Shooting Vehicle Weaponry, p.58, Rulebook wrote:The number of weapons a vehicle can fire in the shooting phase depends on how fast it has moved in that turn's Movement phase, as detailed below.

This is a normal case. The rules index the number of weapons with the sub-type of the vehicle on p.73.

Damage Results, p.61, Rulebook wrote:1 Crew - Shaken
The vehicle may not shoot until the end of its next player turn.

2 Crew - Stunned
The vehicle may not move nor shoot until the end of its next player turn.

Shaken and Stunned damage table results are also normal cases.

Power o the Machine Spirit, p.81, Codex: Space Marines wrote:A Land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted.

Therefore, a Land Raider that has moved at combat speed can fire two weapons, and a Land Raider that has either moved at cruising speed, or has suffered a 'Crew Stunned' or 'Crew Shaken' result can fire a single weapon.

The rule gives four normal cases of when an extra weapon can be used.

Smoke Launchers, p.61, Rulebook wrote:Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how far it moved). Place some cotton wool or other suitable marker on or around the vehicle to show it is obscured. The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy Shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save.

Smoke Launchers are a special case. The rules only apply to vehicles equipped with Smoke Launcher, and then only when they are used.

Smoke Launchers prohibit a vehicle from using any weapons. The Power of the Machine Spirit allows the vehicle to use one more weapon than normal. The Smoke Launchers are not a normal case. Therefore Smoke Launchers prohibit a vehicle from using any weapons, even if that vehicle has the Power of the Machine Spirit.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's look at the relevant text, shall we?

Power o the Machine Spirit, p.81, Codex: Space Marines]A Land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted.

The whole argument rests on what is meant by Normally in that sentence. Is it normal for the game, or normal for the situation.

A Land Raider who fires off smoke would not normally be allowed to fire a weapon. However, POTMS does say it can fire an additional weapon.

A case of poor writing. I believe the intentions were for it to not be able to fire. In that, I agree with you Nurglitch, but I think your logic is failing in this case.

-Kyvik

my quote fu is weak...

"Your logic"?

Where do you people come up with this?

The rules say that the Power of the Machine Spirit only works in normal cases. Normal cases in Warhammer 40,000 are the cases that apply without special contradiction or exception, such as vehicles being Shaken or Stunned. Being a vehicle and being Shaken in 40k is normal. Special cases in this game are the cases that only apply under special conditions, such as vehicles equipped with either the Power of the Machine Spirit or Smoke Launchers. Hence the reference of the term "normal" in the Warhammer 40,000 rules is restricted to stuff that would restrict any vehicle from firing, rather than only that special sub-set of vehicles with special equipment.

Nurglitch wrote:The rules say that the Power of the Machine Spirit only works in normal cases.

No they don't.

They say that the vehicle can fire one more weapon that it normally could.

As Kyvik just pointed out, a vehicle that has fired smoke can normally not fire any weapons.
One more than none is 1.


There are two interpretations here. Yours is only one of them.


Admittedly it's the one that removes the contradiction, which in my opinion makes it the best one to apply... but YMDC has never been about which interpretation makes the most sense, as that's purely subjective.

insaniak:

When the rules say that the vehicle can fire one more weapon than it normally could, that's saying that the Power of the Machine Spirit only works in normal cases.

Kyvik was wrong when he suggested that a vehicle that has used Smoke Launcher can normally not fire any weapons, because the rule is a special case and makes no mention of being a normal case. In fact, thanks to the use of the term 'any', without any qualifier, the Smoke Launcher over-rules the Power of the Machine Spirit.

Let's take the instance of a Land Raider moving at cruising speed. It is normally the case that a vehicle moving at cruising speed cannot use any weapons. The Power of the Machine Spirit allows the Land Raider to fire one more weapon than it normally could. So the Land Raider can use 1 weapon. If the Land Raider uses its Smoke Launchers, it cannot use any weapons, regardless of whether their number is 1, 1 more than normal (1+x), or Pi.

Finally, the opinion that sense is purely subjective is wrong. Sense is a matter that is objective.

Nurglitch wrote:When the rules say that the vehicle can fire one more weapon than it normally could, that's saying that the Power of the Machine Spirit only works in normal cases.

No, that's what you think it's saying. And then you're applying your own arbitrary categorisation as to what is 'normal' and what isn't.


At this stage, both sides have been presented and anyone reading this thread is going to have to make up their own mind anyway... so how about we just pretend that we've already had the 5-page discussion in which both sides just restate their position and find new and creative ways to malign the other side's command of the english language.

You can even pretend you won, if you like.

Until its FAQ'ed, there is no true answer. Its all just house rules.

insaniak:

Yes, of course that's what I think it's saying, and I believe that for reasons that I think we can all share.

As for saying that I'm simply "applying your own arbitrary categorisation as to what is 'normal' and what isn't", how is that any different from what you're doing? Probably best not to tar someone with your own faults, where the truth is what's at interest.

Speaking of truth, it couldn't be further from the truth that the semantics of the term "normal" I'm using here is arbitrary. I'm drawing the categorization of what is normal and what is not (i.e. 'special') from the rules themselves. As I've explained, 'normal' is what applies categorically, and not normal ('special') is what applies hypothetically, or under narrower conditions.

Now, I can easily imagine why you wouldn't think it's useful to continue this discussion, because that would require intellectual effort on your part, and you're not interested in the truth anyways.

But I don't think finding the truth is a matter of the sort of competitive bickering that you seem to mistake for argument. Finding the truth is a matter of stating principles, making arguments, and checking proofs. We can cite the text as evidence, show how that evidence supports or proves our conclusions, and then weigh the co-relative merits of the evidence and our conclusions. That is, if we were both interested in getting to the bottom of it.

As you seem to suggest though, such a task is beyond your capabilities or interest. So I guess we will just have to leave it there.

Nurglitch wrote:As for saying that I'm simply "applying your own arbitrary categorisation as to what is 'normal' and what isn't", how is that any different from what you're doing?

The difference is that you're claiming that your interpretation is the only valid one.
I'm saying that your interpretation is only one of two that are potentially valid.

Or, to be more specific, I'm not the one claiming that 'normal' means only what I say it does.

You've presented your 'evidence'
Others have presented a differing view.

Both have merit within the rules as presented, and so the solution remains one of personal interpretation.

Past experience suggests that there is minimal chance of you accepting that any interpretation other than your own can possibly be correct, and that you're unlikely to provide any actual rules-based argument for this... and so further discussion with you is pointless.

Nothing to do with not being 'interested in the truth'... simply a matter of not caring to repeatedly bash my head against a wall for no good reason.

insaniak wrote:

At this stage, both sides have been presented and anyone reading this thread is going to have to make up their own mind anyway... so how about we just pretend that we've already had the 5-page discussion in which both sides just restate their position and find new and creative ways to malign the other side's command of the english language.

You can even pretend you won, if you like.

Sigged.

Nurglitch contradicts himself.

As I've explained, 'normal' is what applies categorically, and not normal ('special') is what applies hypothetically, or under narrower conditions.

How on earth you then go on to class shaken/stunned as 'normal' is beyond me. Unless your vehicles start out shaken and stunned somehow?

To the OP:

You can read some further discussion on this matter here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219946.page

I had forgotten about that thread. It's an interesting read, if only for this little gem:

Nurglitch wrote:It seems to me that in this case a Land Raider with the Power of the Machine Spirit rule can use a weapon when it has blown smoke, since the rule is that ordinarily blowing smoke prevents a vehicle from using any weapons, and the Power of the Machine Spirit rule allows the Land Raider to fire one more weapon than ordinarily permitted.

yeah,
Nurglitch, I respect his tenacity and I normally see the reason in his Logic, and if he wants to swap side he can!
But I think RAW is beating RAI with a big stick on this Rules interpretaion...

From this thread...

Nurglitch wrote:Normal cases in Warhammer 40,000 are the cases that apply without special contradiction or exception, such as vehicles being Shaken or Stunned. Being a vehicle and being Shaken in 40k is normal.

All Marine Vehicles now come with Smoke launchers as Standard/Free, so the Normal cases in Warhammer 40,000 is for these vehicles to be poping smoke...

Panic...

Doesnt it seem just a little more conceivable now, what with the new rules on smoke launchers (4+ cover save) that Machine spirit may allow you to shoot?

Smoke gives you a 4+ cover save as does terrain, both may still allow you to shoot. I know terrain doenst really have anything to do with how many weapons can fire, the whole idea of vehicles firing after 'smoke' just seems more plausible to me now that its not an auto-glance anymore.

Not saying it should go either way...just saying.

Yeah,
That's a good point, It kind of give the impression that the smokes swirls around the tank but there are occationally gaps that the enemy can see through...

If you fire with POTMS, through your own (cover) smoke, does a enemy tank get a 4+ cover save? I think it should, but there's nothing to support...

Panic...

insaniak wrote:I had forgotten about that thread. It's an interesting read, if only for this little gem:

Nurglitch wrote:It seems to me that in this case a Land Raider with the Power of the Machine Spirit rule can use a weapon when it has blown smoke, since the rule is that ordinarily blowing smoke prevents a vehicle from using any weapons, and the Power of the Machine Spirit rule allows the Land Raider to fire one more weapon than ordinarily permitted.

Wow!

So, Nurglitch, how do you explain that one?

(Other than maybe you're living in SoCal and are often found wearing flip-flops?)

insaniak wrote:I had forgotten about that thread. It's an interesting read, if only for this little gem:

Nurglitch wrote:It seems to me that in this case a Land Raider with the Power of the Machine Spirit rule can use a weapon when it has blown smoke, since the rule is that ordinarily blowing smoke prevents a vehicle from using any weapons, and the Power of the Machine Spirit rule allows the Land Raider to fire one more weapon than ordinarily permitted.

LOL

Pwned.


That just goes to prove something I've always believed... Nurglitch can use his particular brand of disseminating information and presenting "facts" to prove both sides of any given rule that is not specifically and explicitly stated.

Of course, he could prove that every rule is specifically and explicitly stated, as well... and not necessarily the same way each time.

Eric