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6) tankshock and ramming are different rules. So you must declare which move you plan to do.

sourclams wrote:
Doesn't change that a ram is still a tank shock. You know, the bit written in the rule. The bit that everyone seems very happy to ignore when discussing how the rules are written.

Must not change it,because a RAM isn't a tankshock.

9) BRB uses never "tankshock" as RAW in any paragraph about ramming other vehicles.

BRB page 71: "ramming skimmers"
BRB page 73: "ramming walkers"


Try to tankshock a vehicle in RAW.

To apply ram when tankshock is RAW in the codex is RAA.

sourclams wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:
P.s for all you people who cannot remember their 10th grade math, Ramming is a subset of Tankshock. All vehicles can tankshock (main set) doesn't follow that all vehicles can ram (subset) - basic math people, not all items in the main set are in the subset.

You don't even know the subject of the thread. This isn't asking whether or not all vehicles can ram, it's whether or not a Deffrolla, which is an upgrade for a battlewagon (Vehicle: Open-topped, Tank), can be used during a Ram.

Furthermore, you're wrong. All vehicles cannot tank shock. Tanks can tank shock, and they can also Ram, but while all Rams are Tank Shock, not all Tank Shocks are Rams. Battlewagons, being Tanks, can do both.

Your references to grade level are asinine.

Really, OP question might have been but thread decided in tank shock v ramming per Ghaz et al. I joined in on that part - grade level comment seemed appropriate for the level of discussion going on.

"All vehicles can tank shock" was a summary sentence and not the main point I was making so I was comfortable using it so my point didn't get bogged down in minutae.

fullheadofhair wrote:

sourclams wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:
P.s for all you people who cannot remember their 10th grade math, Ramming is a subset of Tankshock. All vehicles can tankshock (main set) doesn't follow that all vehicles can ram (subset) - basic math people, not all items in the main set are in the subset.

You don't even know the subject of the thread. This isn't asking whether or not all vehicles can ram, it's whether or not a Deffrolla, which is an upgrade for a battlewagon (Vehicle: Open-topped, Tank), can be used during a Ram.

Furthermore, you're wrong. All vehicles cannot tank shock. Tanks can tank shock, and they can also Ram, but while all Rams are Tank Shock, not all Tank Shocks are Rams. Battlewagons, being Tanks, can do both.

Your references to grade level are asinine.

Really, OP question might have been but thread decided in tank shock v ramming per Ghaz et al. I joined in on that part - grade level comment seemed appropriate for the level of discussion going on.

"All vehicles can tank shock" was a summary sentence and not the main point I was making so I was comfortable using it so my point didn't get bogged down in minutae.

And also, if Deff-rolla's are for use on a Tank-Shock why would you include the subset called Ramming into the Deff-rolla rules- not all rules that apply to the main set apply to the subset - remember the comment about grade 10 math (you know, the inter-locking circle diagrams incase you are as senile as I am). You are adding to the rules by including the subset.

I've gotta side with sourclams when it comes to RAW with this one.

A Ram is a type of Tankshock. - Clear statement in the BRB

A Deff-rolla can be used in Tankshocks - With no exceptions given.

Thus A Deff-rolla can be used in a Ram.

As for RAI, who can say? The Ork codex was written as 4th/5th hybrid and so makes no mention of ramming

"All vehicles can tank shock" was a summary sentence and not the main point I was making so I was comfortable using it so my point didn't get bogged down in minutae.

Except your summary sentence is false. You avoid getting bogged down in the minutiae by creating blanket statements that are completely wrong?

And also, if Deff-rolla's are for use on a Tank-Shock why would you include the subset called Ramming into the Deff-rolla rules- not all rules that apply to the main set apply to the subset - remember the comment about grade 10 math (you know, the inter-locking circle diagrams incase you are as senile as I am). You are adding to the rules by including the subset.

Because a Ram is a tank shock. The special rules for Ram simply describe what happens when you tank shock a vehicle. The whole maneuver is still a tank shock with a special sidebar thrown in to differentiate between your big tank running over dudes, and running over another big tank. That does not change that a Ram is still a tank shock, even though it's "special" enough to have a different name.

A Ram is a type of Tankshock. - Clear statement in the BRB

A Deff-rolla can be used in Tankshocks - With no exceptions given.

Thus A Deff-rolla can be used in a Ram.

Thank god, someone who can actually pick up the book and read the words.

sourclams wrote:

Razerous wrote:If I run my tank into another vehicle.. I can decide to make a ram attack. I cant tank-shock a vehicle.

Except a Ram is defined as a special type of Tank Shock. A Ram is a tank shock. Everybody enjoys creating elaborate examples to prove their point, but they completely forget what is explicitly written down.

Explicitily written down. . . . Umm...

BGB P69 Ramming 2nd para: and I quote ''..Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal."

This is explicitily written down.

BGB P69 Ramming 2nd para: "However, if the ramming tank comes into contact with an enemy vehicle, the collision is resolved as follows."

Also explicitly written down.

Surely the word "However" is pretty explicit.

A ram isnt a tank shock. If I say I want to peform a tank-shock I cant ram.

If I say I want to peform I ram, I can also tank-shock (albeit I have to pivot on the spot then move @ my max speed which is in addition to the tank-shock rules)

You werent elaborate there. You were quite clear and plain. Im afriad your wrong. About " A ram is a tank shock" & also about the interpriation of the rules.

But then Again, I could be wrong aswell.. wouldnt mean you were right but I could be wrong about thinking your wrong etc etc.

Frenzy wrote:I've gotta side with sourclams when it comes to RAW with this one.

A Ram is a type of Tankshock. - Clear statement in the BRB

A Deff-rolla can be used in Tankshocks - With no exceptions given.

Thus A Deff-rolla can be used in a Ram.

As for RAI, who can say? The Ork codex was written as 4th/5th hybrid and so makes no mention of ramming

so explain when is the Hit done from ramming and when is the hit done from the deff-rolla?

a) first ram then deff-roll?
b) first deff-roll then ram?
c) only ram because the deffrolla is used to tankshock and you rammed a vehicle?
d) whenever i want- its RAA = rules as assumed

Razerous wrote:
A ram isnt a tank shock. If I say I want to peform a tank-shock I cant ram.

Except they can be done simultaneously.

If I say I want to peform I ram, I can also tank-shock (albeit I have to pivot on the spot then move @ my max speed which is in addition to the tank-shock rules)

Which is what a Ram is, an addition to the tank shock rules.

You werent elaborate there. You were quite clear and plain. Im afriad your wrong. About " A ram is a tank shock" & also about the interpriation of the rules.

Which you can't back up at all based on the rules as they are written.

so explain when is the Hit done from ramming and when is the hit done from the deff-rolla?

It's either simultaneously, or after, as the Tank Shock is what triggers the Deff Rolla (pg. 55, Ork 'dex)

1hadhq wrote:

Frenzy wrote:I've gotta side with sourclams when it comes to RAW with this one.

A Ram is a type of Tankshock. - Clear statement in the BRB

A Deff-rolla can be used in Tankshocks - With no exceptions given.

Thus A Deff-rolla can be used in a Ram.

As for RAI, who can say? The Ork codex was written as 4th/5th hybrid and so makes no mention of ramming

so explain when is the Hit done from ramming and when is the hit done from the deff-rolla?

a) first ram then deff-roll?
b) first deff-roll then ram?
c) only ram because the deffrolla is used to tankshock and you rammed a vehicle?
d) whenever i want- its RAA = rules as assumed

If you perform a tank-shock (which may or may-not include a ram attack as people are trying to argue either way) with a deff-rolla, a tank-shock attack would be made and then because a tank-shock attack has been made the deff-rolla's special rules would come into play.

Its simple linear progression of the rules. I roll to hit. I hit. I roll to wound. I wound. You roll to save, you save. Etc etc.

sourclams wrote:Except they can be done simultaneously.

What?

If a vehicle moves into contact with a unit.. you find out what type of unit it is - then you apply the result.

Infantry = tank shock as normal.

Vehicle = Resolves as follows.

Do you suggest it should read:-

'' Vechicle = resolves as follows, in addition to the tank-shock rules" ??

"Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal." BRB pg 69

So if I declare a Ram and run over three infantry units on my way to the Rhino, haven't I just executed three tank shocks during my Ram?

Yup. One after the other. Not simultaneously. Just thought id point that out.

sourclams wrote:"Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal." BRB pg 69

So if I declare a Ram and run over three infantry units on my way to the Rhino, haven't I just executed three tank shocks during my Ram?

Sourclams, all you proven is that you can tank shock while ramming.

You can not Ram while Tank shocking. You have to stop 1" from any vehicle

And Tank shocking is what the Ork codex tells us to do.

So you can not Ram while tank shocking, simple.

You can try to prove that Ram = Tank shock all day long. But at the end of the day. The codex only says "Tank Shock". And by the BGB, you can not Ram while tank shocking.

sorry, but if the codex says only "tank shock" then that's all we can do, because that is the actual name of a very real maneuver a tank can preform. And the other very real maneuver is Ramming, which is not listed as an option in the Ork Codex.

Here is a FAQ

Q. Is a Regroup test a Morale check? For example,
I have a falling back unit within range of a
banner that allows units to reroll failed Morale
checks – can I use the banner for a failed
Regroup test?
A. No and No. A Regroup test is a special type of
Leadership test, not a Morale check (which are
taken in the three situations described on page
44).

As you can see, GW uses the phrase "special type of Leadership test" to show how it is like something, not that it *is* something. GW puts a clear distinction that a "regrouping test" =/= to other leadership checks.

So using "special type of Leadership test" phrase to prove a point is actually a point given to how dislike Ramming and Tank Shocking are.

Edit here for clarity, you only have 4 different types of LD tests: Psychic, Morale, LD test due to a power or rule, and a Regroup test. At what point is ever a regroup test = to any of these?

Break it down

Regroup test =/= Morale test as per the FAQ

The Ramming rules use the **exact** same line to describe how it is a special type of Tank shock just like Regrouping does on page 46.

Ramming =/= Tank shock

Razerous wrote:
A ram isnt a tank shock. If I say I want to peform a tank-shock I cant ram.

sourclams wrote:
Except they can be done simultaneously.

They can't. You either tankshock a non-vehicle unit and have to stop before any vehicle or friendly unit,
or you perform a ram and tankshock any non-vehicle unit and (if it doesn't kill you with DoG) move on to the vehicle and ram.

So you have to decide. Only if you try to ram a vehicle behind a non-vehicle unit you can do both, but only at the appropriate time.
because tankshock demands to stop by RAW and you can't divide a "straight move without turn" into 2 sentences, there is no way
to perform a tankshock and ram in any "wanted" order. You follow either tankshock (call out distance to move) or ram (move always maximum distance). Still seperate rules and actions.

sourclams wrote:
It's either simultaneously, or after, as the Tank Shock is what triggers the Deff Rolla (pg. 55, Ork 'dex)

So we use a piece of wargear dedicated to tankshock to ram ?

Maybe the d6 hits exist to wound multiple models and a vehicle is always a single model.
Maybe GW was aware of the deffrolla but thought if we say tankshock our players will follow the paragraph after tankshock and
not ramming because our fine customers are able to read context and accept layout.?
Maybe RAW allows tankshock because it was all the time only possible to harm vs non-vehicle units?

A "special type of ..." doesnt add a rule to wargear.
Don't snip out, use the full "rules for tanks".

Razerous wrote:Yup. One after the other. Not simultaneously. Just thought id point that out.

Which was more or less the point I was seeking to make. It's a Ram maneuver, in that you are forced to declare you are ramming and move full speed, but tank shocks can still happen and are resolved along the way. Bottom line, you have to declare the Ram. Tank shocks occur during the Ramming maneuver as a whole.

Padixon, here's the problem you run into with your example:

Q. Is a Regroup test a Morale check? ...
A. No A Regroup test is a special type of
Leadership test, not a Morale check...

Per the FAQ a regroup test is not a morale check, which is what the wargear would allow rerolls for. If the wargear allowed rerolls for leadership tests, it would function.

Q. Is a Ram a Tank Shock?
A. "Ramming is a special type of tank shock"

Per the BRB a ram is special type of tank shock. So the wargear functions because a Ram is a tank shock. Now, if the Wargear stated that it only functioned during Rams, it would not work for Tank Shocks because a Tank Shock does not meet the criteria to be a Ram.

So it's apples and oranges.

And then we get to this guy:

So we use a piece of wargear dedicated to tankshock to ram ?

Yes, because a Ram is a special type of tank shock. Ram does not exclude Tank Shock in the way that Regroup Tests exclude Morale Checks.

Don't snip out, use the full "rules for tanks".

As far as I can tell, I'm the only guy reading the whole page. Everybody else is ignoring the "is a special type of tank shock" bit.

Brillaint. So were resolved then. You can tank-shock if you declare a ram.

So in regards to the OP : No.

You can tank shock if you declare a Ram, a Ram is a tank shock, and Deff Rolla functions during a tank shock, which a Ram is. I'm going to keep saying it until somebody can prove that this doesn't apply:

"A Ram is a special type of tank shock"

So in regard to the OP: Yes.

What happens, when tank-shocking, you come to a vehicle?

You stop, because a Tank Shock does not meet the criteria to become a Ram.

However, a Ram meets all the criteria to be a Tank Shock because a Ram is a tank shock, and indeed, you can still tank shock while ramming.

You're going to have to come up with something other than a 'literal reading of the rules' because the BRB is clear that a Ram is a Tank Shock.

sourclams wrote:

And then we get to this guy:

nice to meet you mr that guy

sourclams wrote:

As far as I can tell, I'm the only guy reading the whole page. Everybody else is ignoring the "is a special type of tank shock" bit.

How many times did i quote "special type of tank shock" in this thread?

Don't know?

sourclams wrote:
You're going to have to come up with something other than a 'literal reading of the rules' because the BRB is clear that a Ram is a Tank Shock.

Again RAA?

If you declare a tank-shock, move your distance, come to a vehicle you stop within 1"

If you declare a ram attack, move your distance, come to a vehicle you ram it.

If you want to apply the tank-shock rules to the ram, then fine. You ram it and you tank-shock it. Thats cool. Your 1" away from the vehicle. (But you dont finish 1" away because the unit is a vehicle)

Or you follow the rules "..as follows..." and complete a ram manouver.

If you want to complete that ram manouver AND try a tank-shock manouver.. then fine.

Here's exactly what you said:

So you have to decide. Only if you try to ram a vehicle behind a non-vehicle unit you can do both, but only at the appropriate time.
because tankshock demands to stop by RAW and you can't divide a "straight move without turn" into 2 sentences, there is no way
to perform a tankshock and ram in any "wanted" order. You follow either tankshock (call out distance to move) or ram (move always maximum distance). Still seperate rules and actions

So if you and I are playing a game, and I declare that I am tank shocking a unit by moving my Battlewagon four inches, and your unit is 3 inches away, a tank shock occurs. Now, I cannot decide, that based on the success of this maneuver, that I feel like moving a further 7 inches and ramming the Rhino that was 11 inches away from my start location.

Why is this? Because I declared a tank shock, not a Ram. You can't ram while tank shocking because you don't meet the criteria for a Ram special maneuver.

So it's next turn, you move another unit between myself and the rhino 7 inches away, and I decide to Ram the rhino. I declare a Ram, I tank shock the unit between myself and the rhino, and pending that maneuver's success, I Ram the rhino.

So no, you really can't parse out the tank shock rules for ramming because the maneuver incorporates those rules. A Ram is a tank shock maneuver with some added criteria and some added benefits. You're acting like it's a completely different thing, when it's actually the exact same maneuver with a few more bells and whistles. I can do absolutely everything during a Ram that I could during a Tank Shock, including Tank Shock other units, with the added benefit of not having to stop 1" away from vehicles.

You've got a Lexus.

I've got a Lexus SE with all-leather interior and the 10 disc changer/Dolby surround option that I paid $5,000 more to get installed.

Still makes my car a Lexus, just a better Lexus.

sourclams wrote:
You're going to have to come up with something other than a 'literal reading of the rules' because the BRB is clear that a Ram is a Tank Shock.



1hadhq wrote:
Again RAA?

If the only assumption made on my part is to read exactly what the rulebook says, I'm totally good with that.

Why are you trying to argue symantics and bring in lexuses and stuff but completely avoiding the actual issue of the rule?

Why can't you tell me how a maneuver that is identical to a tank shock in every single way with the addition of a single criteria (movement) and the removal of a single other criteria (stopping within 1" of a vehicle), that the Book explicitly states is a tank shock and is in itself able to Tank Shock, is in your world of parsed semantics and selective reading not a tank shock?

Ramming:

You tank-shock non-vehicle units.

If its a vehicle, you ram it. Ramming is a special form of tank-shock (not called tank shock, but ramming) that allows you to do many things.

It may be a special form of tank-shock yet due to all the clever wording in the BGB it is, infact, a ramming manouver (which is seperate and different to a tank-shock manouver)

You can make a tank-shock manouver in the process of making a ramming manouver.

Now fill me in, where in the above, you think you can use a deff-rolla against a vehicle.

Doesn't the deffolla say "ANY tankshock? "

Isn't a ram a special kind of tankshock?

Are "special tankshocks" not a part of "any tankshocks? "

Because I believe that's the point that others are trying to make. That just because its a "special tankshock" doesn't mean that its not part of "any tankshock."

sourclams wrote:
So if you and I are playing a game, and I declare that I am tank shocking a unit by moving my Battlewagon four inches, and your unit is 3 inches away, a tank shock occurs. Now, I cannot decide, that based on the success of this maneuver, that I feel like moving a further 7 inches and ramming the Rhino that was 11 inches away from my start location.

Why is this? Because I declared a tank shock, not a Ram. You can't ram while tank shocking because you don't meet the criteria for a Ram special maneuver.

So it's next turn, you move another unit between myself and the rhino 7 inches away, and I decide to Ram the rhino. I declare a Ram, I tank shock the unit between myself and the rhino, and pending that maneuver's success, I Ram the rhino.

So no, you really can't parse out the tank shock rules for ramming because the maneuver incorporates those rules. A Ram is a tank shock maneuver with some added criteria and some added benefits. You're acting like it's a completely different thing, when it's actually the exact same maneuver with a few more bells and whistles.

So we accept ram as special maneuver? Good.

1) if you tankshock,you control your moved distance.

my unit would take the deffrolla hit then.

2) if you ram,you move the full distance until you met any criteria to stop.

so my unit would receive a deathrolla hit, but my rhino wouldn't.
because you would resolve as = AV 14 + tank + move 7 = S 7 hit vs rhino.If my rhino explodes, you got to move 5".


still deffrolla vs non-vehicle.
You declare "RAM" , not tankshock. And you know you can't aim a tankshock at a vehicle and hit it.

The deffrolla is a "drive by" attack vs tankshocked units and i do think its enough for orks to have the only tankshock with a
to wound feature in the game. Plus the battlewagon has the same chance to damage as any leman russ or land raider in a ram.

If we would accept a tankshock vs vehicles, it would be possible to tankshock skimmers and deny to evade because the move wasn't a ram. plus hit it with a d6 S10 attack from the deffrolla.

So i have to stick with NO to the OP.

Because you're overlooking basic English.

The Ork Codex (this is the second time I've mentioned this, since you conveniently overlooked it the first time), specifically mentions Tank Shock. Capital letters, proper noun, specific thing.

The BRB is structured as follows:

I Tanks.
..A. Special Moves Tanks Make.
......1. Tank Shock.
..........a. Death or Glory
......2. Ramming

Regardless of whether you believe Ramming=Tank Shock (which it does not, it is a special kind), the fact that the Ork Codex clearly mentions ONE of the TWO types of special moves a Tank may make restrict the Deff Rollas function to that specific type of move.

You claim to read the entire page, so please make sure you've read the last paragraph, last sentence:

until it reaches its maximum move distance or another enemy (which it will tank shock or ram again!).

Two distinct actions, both in structure of the rulebook, as well as within the text of the rules themselves. Deff Rollas work against non-vehicle units which are tank-shocked, not against vehicles which are rammed.

Red_Lives wrote:Doesn't the deffolla say "ANY tankshock? "

Isn't a ram a special kind of tankshock?

Are "special tankshocks" not a part of "any tankshocks? "

Because I believe that's the point that others are trying to make. That just because its a "special tankshock" doesn't mean that its not part of "any tankshock."

Right.

Two distinct actions, both in structure of the rulebook, as well as within the text of the rules themselves. Deff Rollas work against non-vehicle units which are tank-shocked, not against vehicles which are rammed.

Except Rams are Tank Shocks. (top of page 69, BRB)

So...

just because its a "special tankshock" doesn't mean that its not part of "any tankshock."

There's that basic English you refer to.

I suppose if you insist on overlooking the structure of the rulebook, as well as the proper noun usage in the Ork Codex where it states, "Any Tank Shock.." which by definition of being a proper noun can only refer to a specific thing, then you're right.

If on the other hand, you care to abide by the rules of the English language and the structure of the rulebook clearly differentiating Ramming actions from Tank Shock actions, then you'll probably side with other educated folks and come to the proper conclusion that a Deff Rolla does nothing against a Rammed vehicle.