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I guess everyone took the time from the first round to prepare for round two.

I really can't say too much as I don't have the C:SM with me and won't see it for a few more weeks, by which time this thread will have long expired I think. However,

1. Soft scores in tournies: pack sand. The 40k universe is far too diverse, broad, and unrestrained by canon to claim it has a canon. It's all opinion, so the only real guidance is the rules. Build the army you want, and accept all the consequences (both good and bad) that come with your choices.

2. Can anyone show me a rule from a GW pub that references allies (as rules, not fluff), quote chapter and verse, that states clearly that allies are a seperate army, or a seperate FOC? I'm not asking for preconceptions, opinions, or rules that talk about other things and QED prove your point. Show me the print, please. Thank you.

grizgrin wrote:2. Can anyone show me a rule from a GW pub that references allies (as rules, not fluff), quote chapter and verse, that states clearly that allies are a seperate army, or a seperate FOC? I'm not asking for preconceptions, opinions, or rules that talk about other things and QED prove your point. Show me the print, please. Thank you.

The rules show them to be part of the army they are in.

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies"

If they are included in an army, they are part of the army.

Redbeard wrote:Ok, that one combination is in the fluff.

I would still consider it to be a list designed for the special rules, more than anything else. In my experience, 99% of people who would run that combination would do it because the rules rock, and 1% would do it because they read a cool story and decided they wanted to represent that. And that's just how I would see it.

Like I said above, I'd rather play a strategy game, rather than a 'find the cool combo characters' game. If I wanted a combo-oriented game, I'd play Magic:The Gathering, which not only does combos better, but is considerably better balanced. I acknowledge that bringing two special characters is legal - but regardless of how fluffy it is, it all seems like WAAC gaming to me. If you want to do it at a gladiator-style tournament, more power to you. If you do it at a normal RTT with comp or sportsmanship scores, expect to be docked.

So, even when it is showed to be completely fluffy and legal, you'll still mark them down?

What's the point of calling them comp scores at all, then? Why not just call them a penalty for having the misfortune of playing against Redbeard?

Should everyone be given a perfect score for list comp then, unless they make an illegal list?

Obviously it depends on what the comp scores are exactly, but if there's a section for lists, I'm not going to give everyone who brings a legal list full marks. There would be no point in having the score.

Two stores I play have forbidden the use of applying Vulkan's special rules for allied units.

G

You are using the sisters in Vulkens' list as a power play. Nothing more. The fact that it's such a heated subject should give you caution to it's use. I believe every bolter, flamer and weapon is blessed by the emperor and is sacred to their owners. Makes sense for the Salamanders because they are fellow marines. But Sisters? They don't even like Marines. Why would they follow his word on their blessed weapons?

thanoson wrote:You are using the sisters in Vulkens' list as a power play. Nothing more. The fact that it's such a heated subject should give you caution to it's use. I believe every bolter, flamer and weapon is blessed by the emperor and is sacred to their owners. Makes sense for the Salamanders because they are fellow marines. But Sisters? They don't even like Marines. Why would they follow his word on their blessed weapons?

Useless argument based on fluff. Please read the "how to have an intelligent rules debate" article.

Cent99: Not that I agree with thanoson, but his post does have a place in response to the "soft scores" sub-discussion. It IS debatable, however, whether such a subdiscussion has a place in YMDC.

Thanoson: Using Vulkan as a power play? Well then, if that is how you see it, I guess the only thing that can be inferred is that the person doing this is more interested in the rules and the game than in the fluff. You seem to have a distinct fluff slant. Neither is wrong, since this game is extremely heavy on both fluff and rules; however I would discourage anyone from ragging on anyone else about their preferance of the two. It is. Sometimes that's all that matters.

GBF: on what grounds is this combination forbidden?

skyth: what skyth said.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
So, even when it is showed to be completely fluffy and legal, you'll still mark them down?

There are different ways to be fluffy and legal. It is fluffy and legal to field 2 units of nob bikers. It is fluffy and legal to field fateweaver and 16 bloodcrushers.

What's the point of calling them comp scores at all, then? Why not just call them a penalty for having the misfortune of playing against Redbeard?

What is the point of comp scores at all? Isn't it to add some sort of discouragement to WAAC gaming? I'm sorry, regardless of how fluffy or legal it is, you cannot convince me that fielding multiple marine special characters like that isn't an attempt to get as many special rules into play as possible, and that seems to me to be a facet of WAAC gaming. It's legal. It's appropriate in a gladiator. It's not so appropriate in a friendly game. Just as fielding multiple units of fluffy, legal nob bikers isn't.

Don't get me wrong - I don't like the idea of comp points at all. But, if a tournament features them, and I'm forced to rate my opponents on this random scale, why should fluffy, legal nob bikers be penalized any more than fluffy legal multiple-special-characters?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Two stores I play have forbidden the use of applying Vulkan's special rules for allied units.

G

Interesting; both of the two stores that I ever frequent allow the combination. There's a third that I occasionally visit that I have heard allows it, but I haven't been there in about 4 months, so cannot confirm first hand.

Ok, I am slanted more towards fluffy list and to having fun as opposed to tournament styles of play. I'm there to play a game in a competive atmosphere without questioning if it is a legal game mechanic to use squads from a different codex with special rules from another. Deep in my heart, it doesn't feel right. It's my opinion. I know everyone could come up with fluffy reasons to why they CAN do it. But if you have to do that aren't you trying too hard? It is a very strong tactic that can be abused. I know that the RAW purist out there say that everything is fair if it's RAW. But just because you can doesn't mean you should. Example; 3 monoliths, a C'tan, Lord with res orb and 2 warrior squads at a 1500 point tournament. Would anyone give him great sportsmanship scores? By the rules, he's legal to do this, but does it feel right to any opponent he faces? The Sisters and Vulken fall into this if RAW says you can (which I don't agree that they are apart of the army).

The composition score isn't there to say if your opponent had a legal list. An illegal list would be cheating and that forfeits the player.

A composition score exists so you can give your opinion of your opponent's list selection. Your opponent doesn't have to agree or even feel it is fair. That's the nature of opinion scores.

Frankly, I think that if there is going to be a comp score it should be given by the judges and not your opponent.

Democratus wrote:Frankly, I think that if there is going to be a comp score it should be given by the judges and not your opponent.

This.

It may not stop all bias or anything, but it's quite a bit better than having a bitter opponent tank your scores.

thanoson wrote:. Would anyone give him great sportsmanship scores?

Sportsmanship has nothing to do with the list that they took.

Sure it does. That list is made purely for a power gaming effect. Is there any sport to that? However, I do understand what you're saying. He could be the nicest guy during the game, but the fact is he made such list knowing he was going into a tournament where they judge comp and sportsmanship. That is why he should lose the points because he knows that his opponents will frown on that. Just like the old all starcannon list. When a person fields something like those list, I assume the person isn't trying to be sporting at all. I'm gonna try to play better because of it, however there's a bad taste in my mouth from the get go.

I'm continually amazed that one MEQ list generates this much tearjerking and pillowbiting after MechX/nidzilla/droppod whatever/ork d'jour have been around in various versions for years. The damn list hasn't even been proven on the RTT/indy/or GT circuits. Hasn't won a gladiator, hasn't demolished 'Ardboyz. At worst, its roughed up a shop or two or been "banned" (however the hell that is supposed to happed) from a couple locals.

It's an army that still has to get within 12 inches of anything to accomplish jack. It's an army that people are scared of because it first has to roll a 10 or less -and- then roll a bunch of 6's.

There is pleanty out there that can and will beat it.

But enraged listbashing to justify shrinking epeen size is so much easier!

thanoson wrote:Sure it does. That list is made purely for a power gaming effect. Is there any sport to that? However, I do understand what you're saying. He could be the nicest guy during the game, but the fact is he made such list knowing he was going into a tournament where they judge comp and sportsmanship. That is why he should lose the points because he knows that his opponents will frown on that. Just like the old all starcannon list. When a person fields something like those list, I assume the person isn't trying to be sporting at all. I'm gonna try to play better because of it, however there's a bad taste in my mouth from the get go.

Notice the two seperate categories? Judging sports on army composition is the same as judging painting by if you won or lost. If a list has two special characters in it, it could be a guy going 'hey, cool...I can put some flexibility into my list and use it one of two different ways. That would make it more fun'. Not to mention different people have fun with the game in different ways. Saying someone is a bad person because of the way they enjoy to play the game is the epitome of bad sportsmanship.

Hmm... to a point you are right. But if people start to groan every time they sit across from the 3 mono's or the flamers from the sisters with the rerolls, doesn't that say something too? My goal in playing my games is to have a fun game with a list that someone is not going to complain about. My list are always balanced and most like playing against me because there is no questionables in it. I play list that I wouldn't be frustrated to play against and I look for that in others list.
So why not just use standard marines with flamers? From a fluff point of view you would get no complaints. From a comp POV there would be none either. Your army would be a straight up legal army in every sense with the ability to reroll wounds. However, with the sisters in the mix, the players are looking for that something extra. Is it that needed to win the game?

Well to play Devil's advocate..

Sisters being included is a perfectly legal way by RAW to play as well, in every sense.

As for a "need to win", if its totally within the rules I see no problem with it.

You have to remember that this is a game and a hobby. Some people, like any game, play to win. If they are doing so totally legally at the location they play in, then more power to them.

This is what happenes when differant people do things for differant reasons in the same system. But when they all are doing them legally, there really isnt much room for complaint in my opinion.

Fortunatly like any game there is competition. The fortunate part of that is since its a hobby as well, the people who dont play one way have the oppertunity to make up for it in other areas where they do excel.

Yes - and continuing on that vein, it is completely acceptable for someone to mark a list as unsportsman like.

The Arcanacon convention in Melbourne where I live has a special rule for lists that are deemed "unbalanced":

We place no restrictions on composition. Please bring an army that you think is themed and fair.

But, in rounds 1 to 5, all players will be asked to inform us if their opponent's army was "Unbalanced"

If any army gets three peer votes as "Unbalanced", then the judges will pull out that list and assess it.

If they agree that the list is unbalanced, that player will lose 12 Battle Points.

That covers things quite well I think - if you are playing a pure power list (maybe Eldar with 3 wraith lords, wraith guard and 5 man units of avengers ensconced within wave serpents?) then you can lose points.

Makes the sportsmanship score count and for you to also raise a greivance if there is an issue (and to ensure that the really competitive types would probably not enter a sisters/Vulcan army as they could be dudded 12 points).

1)@Shotgun- I agree with your assesment of the army it hasn't swept torunaments for what ever reason so it's obviously not uber broken or anything.

2)@thanoson- There are much worst list made to power game then this, such as my cousion's lists for either 1850 or 1750 both are Kairos, 24 Bloodcrushers, and 1-3 Soulgrinders, and 3 Plaugebearer groups with whats left over. Is it power gaming yes but, my cousion plays to win. He feels at a tournament you bring your best, and that fluffy lists usually falter in this area depending on the army. Would you dock his score because of his army list, yes absolutly. However this won't worry him, he feels that if he wins his battles and gets his army painted up nice then list comp will only hurt him so much.