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So, the major question seems to be whether allies constitute part of Vulkan's army. Do they? Do they not? Why do you think so?

Search function is your friend. Quit beating the dead horse.

No offense to the programmers of this site (who are far more knowledgable than I), but Search is hardly worth the pixels it's printed on.

Yeah, I can sympathize with that opinion.

Short breakdown:

Vulkan's special rule grants its benefit to the entire army (including Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders toting melta/flamer gear). The loss of combat tactics is not the condition that allows the use of the special rule, as with Shrike, Khan, Lysander, and the other special characters.

Because of this, Combat Tactics is not the prereq for Vulkan's SR to work. It's linked to the weapon type. A Heavy Flamer on a Dreadnought takes the benefit, just like the flamer on a Tac squad. Therefore, Sisters allies are granted the benefit of his SR because they're wielding the types of weapons that benefit from Vulkan's rule.

There's a significant demographic that believes this isn't the case, but they really don't have anything to stand on by pure RAW.

Thank you. That was a very concise and informative brief.

Now, on the one hand I play the rules as written, even when it dooms my game. On the other hand, while I really hate to use the word "broken", when I read this I can hear a transmission grinding itself into shavings.

And you can bet I'm writing a list right now. Just to holster on for a few power gamers at the shop who need a bit of an attitude adjustment frm time to time.

Understood. I would recommend taking regular flamers instead of heavies because it'll allow for more re-rolling and potential '6's when you burn a faith point to get Ap1 shots.

You've lost me. I see zero benefit to not taking heavy flamers, since any time you have a chance to use one instead of a regular flamer, you trade off on a one to one basis.

You get fewer wound with regular flamers, which means more re-rolls, which means higher chance of 6's with Guidance on.

Mmm, crispy terminators...

sourclams wrote:Yeah, I can sympathize with that opinion.

Short breakdown:

Vulkan's special rule grants its benefit to the entire army (including Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders toting melta/flamer gear). The loss of combat tactics is not the condition that allows the use of the special rule, as with Shrike, Khan, Lysander, and the other special characters.

Because of this, Combat Tactics is not the prereq for Vulkan's SR to work. It's linked to the weapon type. A Heavy Flamer on a Dreadnought takes the benefit, just like the flamer on a Tac squad. Therefore, Sisters allies are granted the benefit of his SR because they're wielding the types of weapons that benefit from Vulkan's rule.

There's a significant demographic that believes this isn't the case, but they really don't have anything to stand on by pure RAW.

just remember, Vulcan only twin links flamers and heavy flamers, meltas and multi meltas. He does not twinlink all flamer/melta type weapons, only those with the exact same name, according to RAW. So, only sisters with the appropriately named weapons get the bonus. For exaple, he does nothing for the Seraphim's flamer type pistols.

Why bother with Seraphim when you can take 4 flamer Dominions? There is no need to Hit and Run out of combat if there is no one left standing to combat with.

Conquest NW ruled that he only twin linked Marine army weapons (including dreads, land speeders, ect), not Sisters or stormtroopers.

The RAW says:

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies" is how the rule is stated.

Therefore one could say going by a RAW interpertation Sisters and stormtroopers are technically not part of the space marine army, but are Allies.

Either way, good luck pulling this off at a tournament. If you do I'm pretty sure your sportsmanship score will take a hit.

BRB pg. 87 Multiple detachment games
"Each detachment will be a seperate army, using it own force organisation chart."
This implies that the FOC is what determines what an army is.

asugradinwa wrote:Conquest NW ruled that he only twin linked Marine army weapons (including dreads, land speeders, ect), not Sisters or stormtroopers.

The RAW says:

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies" is how the rule is stated.

Therefore one could say going by a RAW interpertation Sisters and stormtroopers are technically not part of the space marine army, but are Allies.

Either way, good luck pulling this off at a tournament. If you do I'm pretty sure your sportsmanship score will take a hit.

So playing by the rules leads to low sportsmanship? Any other legal army builds that automatically lead to low sports scores? Nidzilla? Mecheldar? Drop Guard? Nob Bikers? Do you immediately dock those armies if they line up across from you?

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:You get fewer wound with regular flamers, which means more re-rolls, which means higher chance of 6's with Guidance on.

Mmm, crispy terminators...

You get to reroll the dice to wound on a template weapon regardless of whether you wounded or not as far as I can see, which means, while extra re-rolls would be better for taking out terminators I would rather have the heavy flamer for all the things that aren't space marines and against marines I will just reroll some succesful dice if I really need the AP1 hits.

You don't reroll successful dice.

SeattleDV8 wrote:BRB pg. 87 Multiple detachment games
"Each detachment will be a seperate army, using it own force organisation chart."
This implies that the FOC is what determines what an army is.

Actually, the rule you quoted from the BRB applies to something different entirely, allies are different than detachments, which is why different words are used. Also there is no rule, that I can find, that states that you must take the 1 HQ and 2 troop choices normally required of a "real" FOC which seems to show that they are an augmentation to the normal force, rather than a separate force entirely.

Shotgun wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Conquest NW ruled that he only twin linked Marine army weapons (including dreads, land speeders, ect), not Sisters or stormtroopers.

The RAW says:

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies" is how the rule is stated.

Therefore one could say going by a RAW interpertation Sisters and stormtroopers are technically not part of the space marine army, but are Allies.

Either way, good luck pulling this off at a tournament. If you do I'm pretty sure your sportsmanship score will take a hit.

So playing by the rules leads to low sportsmanship? Any other legal army builds that automatically lead to low sports scores? Nidzilla? Mecheldar? Drop Guard? Nob Bikers? Do you immediately dock those armies if they line up across from you?

Yes... beating me is unfair

I'm kidding, I'm not insinuating that the people here who do not believe that the Vulkan/Sisters combo is legal are questioning it's legality because they are afraid of it

sourclams wrote:You don't reroll successful dice.

There are no rule against it. Twin-linked template weapons can re-roll any and all to wound dice. You probably have it confused with the rules for normal twin-linked weapons as they may only re-roll failed to hit rolls.

Shotgun wrote:So playing by the rules leads to low sportsmanship? Any other legal army builds that automatically lead to low sports scores? Nidzilla? Mecheldar? Drop Guard? Nob Bikers? Do you immediately dock those armies if they line up across from you?

Heh. Welcome to the world of "soft scores". Several people do auto-ding the scores of people using those armies(or anyone who beats them). It's the nature of the soft score beast, which is why several people advocate removing them from GW events.

asugradinwa wrote:Conquest NW ruled that he only twin linked Marine army weapons (including dreads, land speeders, ect), not Sisters or stormtroopers.

The RAW says:

"Witch Hunters units can be included as allies in any of the following codex armies" is how the rule is stated.

Therefore one could say going by a RAW interpertation Sisters and stormtroopers are technically not part of the space marine army, but are Allies.

Either way, good luck pulling this off at a tournament. If you do I'm pretty sure your sportsmanship score will take a hit.

The INAT FAQ for Adepticon has ruled it is fair game to play this way. Under the Deploy Forces section it says "You can either agree with your opponent which type of deployment to use for your armies, or roll a D6 and consult the chart"

So when you get to deployment, which is after your forces have been made, you are deploying your "army", and therefore means all units in your force are your "army". Otherwise if you want to seperate it out then you would be deploying any "allied" IG, DH, and WH speratly from the parent codex. Obviously thats not the case. But to make such a distinction between "army" and "allies", you have to keep said distinction through every rule that it comes across.

And as we know the He'Stan rule applies to your "army", which is what you deploy every game.

In addition to this, Sisters in a dedicated transport would also gain the "outflank" rule with Khan in the army!

;-)

tallmantim wrote:In addition to this, Sisters in a dedicated transport would also gain the "outflank" rule with Khan in the army!

;-)

Incorrect. Khan's rules specifically state that the units exchange their Combat Tactics rule for the ability to Outflank. As Sisters do not have the Combat Tactics rule to exchange, they do not get its benefit.

To be specific, the rule states:

Chapter tactics: If you include ... Khan then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the ability to outflank. If you choose to do this, all dedicated transports also gain the ability to outflank.

Note that it does not say that the rule for transports is for units that have changed their chapter tactics - it is for all dedicated transports.

Certainly not the RAI, but certainly RAW IMO.

Shrike78 wrote:

SeattleDV8 wrote:BRB pg. 87 Multiple detachment games
"Each detachment will be a seperate army, using it own force organisation chart."
This implies that the FOC is what determines what an army is.

Actually, the rule you quoted from the BRB applies to something different entirely, allies are different than detachments, which is why different words are used. Also there is no rule, that I can find, that states that you must take the 1 HQ and 2 troop choices normally required of a "real" FOC which seems to show that they are an augmentation to the normal force, rather than a separate force entirely.

Yes , you must have the compulsory 1 HQ and two Troops from the "parent "list, (WH codex Pg. 25) and still have the normal FOC limits along with the allies limits.
The fact that this rule deals with a different section still does not change the idea that FOC = army.

tallmantim wrote:To be specific, the rule states:

Chapter tactics: If you include ... Khan then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the ability to outflank. If you choose to do this, all dedicated transports also gain the ability to outflank.

Note that it does not say that the rule for transports is for units that have changed their chapter tactics - it is for all dedicated transports.

Certainly not the RAI, but certainly RAW IMO.

No, as the Sisters don't have the rule, the transport would not be allowed to carry them. Its like having a character join a unit of Infiltrators. They lose the rule because the character does not have it. The rules only allow for a unit to pass the ability to Outflank to their Dedicated Transport, the rules do not allow for it to work the other way around.

Marius Xerxes wrote:The rules only allow for a unit to pass the ability to Outflank to their Dedicated Transport, the rules do not allow for it to work the other way around.

edit... Outflanking units with a dedicated transport already pass that ability to their transport if they arrive on the table in it, so Korsarro is intended to do something else.

The purpose of their dedicated transports getting the rule mentioned separately is so that the unit and transport could deploy from reserve separately but they both keep the outflank rule.

So you could have a 10 Man strong unit of Marines deploy via outflank as one unit (ie not in Combat Squads) while their Razorback deployed via outflank as well to move about on its own.

sourclams: this wasn't a dead horse at all, it was a dang hydra alive and kicking!

Indeed. Refreshingly it brought up a slew of new material, instead of the ol' horse beatin sticks. Good show.