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Matthias wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I thought the ruling concerning the icons fit both armies' background well. I don't blame Toledo for taking advantage.

Especially when there were so many prominent memebers of the council on DD1. No reason to complain when your teammates help make the rule.

This was a Team Tournament clarification and NOT In the INAT at all. No one in Dakka Detachment One had any say about that whatsoever. That clarification was on the TT rules page for months and months and months and months and months but no one ever said anything to me about reviewing it.

So...place the blame on me. I thought it made perfect thematic sense and fit well within the rules of Wargear the TT has always lived by. Just want to state that before statements like the above turn into the same rumor-mongering BS they always do.

No blame to assign, Matt - you guys did an awesome job of getting everything going smoothly, and there will always be a need for the organizers to make judgement calls on inter-codex interactions. There is plenty of room for discussion on either side of the argument, but you had to make a decision. We all knew what it was, because you made sure it was available to everyone months ago - no surprises.

edit:

Kallbrand wrote:I dunno, this quite shows that the organizers are making up the rules to fit for themselves. Just like many people voiced fears about when with the INAT. Sure, you can say: I didnt write my name on that rule but you are all a big part of it, so collusion is a quite big factor in the picture.

It becomes quite valid when it pushes the power factor of "your" armies and punishes others.

This isn't even a good conspiracy theory - not only were Yakface & Centurian99 uninvolved in setting up the Team Tournament rules, it didn't benefit them at all.

The fact that you are saying I spent the last 6 months of my life organizing an event so someone else on the AdeptiCon Council could win $600 in stuff is...well just plain stupid. Hell, I only just met Yakface for the first time this weekend (and that was for about 30 seconds).

- Team Tournament Rules have been more or less the same for 7 years - only slightly clarified as new army books were released or the edition changed.
- "My" armies don't even remotely calculate in this equation. I don't play Chaos and in 8 years I have never played in the TT.
- The rules/clarifications have existed for months. Did DD1 (and many other armies) see a possible strong combination as defined by the clarifications...of course...was that clarification designed specifically for them...seriously?
- The Team Tournament will never be standard 40K. Of course we have to make up some rules/clarifications. The entire Force Org is defined by the tournament.

Had a fantastic time. Now time to get back to painting some Epic!

Thanks for the insults but did I ever say that they were in the INAT? Maybe read before you jump me on every post I make.

Dont you think that Yak and Cent has anything to say about the rest of the rules they make for the TT? Do you think its coincidence that they play the army combination that reaps the most benefit from those rules?

There is a reason why you shouldnt play in your own tournaments and this is precisley why.

Edit since more posts came in while writing.
To all who sais that Yak and Cent have nothing to say about the rules in the TT, are you serious? They might not havent been part of writing them, but dont you think the people who have their names on that paper listens to them? Come on.

Gentlemen this thread has been reported. Please remember Dakka Rule #1-be polite. Failure to do so, even in YMTC, can result in disciplinary action. read your posts to insure they are without personal attacks or are being needlessly abrasive.

I will review posts after this warning to insure it has been complied with. If posts violate this warning they will be dealt with.

And for the record I am not paid by Yakface and don't care a whit about who won Adepticon, so lets clear that charge immediately from whomever I drop the hammer on tomorrow if warranted.

Lock and load-

Kallbrand wrote:I dunno, this quite shows that the organizers are making up the rules to fit for themselves. Just like many people voiced fears about when with the INAT. Sure, you can say: I didnt write my name on that rule but you are all a big part of it, so collusion is a quite big factor in the picture.

It becomes quite valid when it pushes the power factor of "your" armies and punishes others.

So wait let me get this straight. Your crying fowl against a ruling that was used by a team that didn't have a hand in creating said rule, against DD1 where some of its members had a part in helping? Are you sure you have your facts straight?

Arander I strongly suggest you look at the post above and check to make sure your post is in line with that. If in doubt ponder what a person who views people as a waste of skin and has the ability to suspend accounts would think...

Kallbrand wrote:Thanks for the insults but did I ever say that they were in the INAT? Maybe read before you jump me on every post I make.

Dont you think that Yak and Cent has anything to say about the rest of the rules they make for the TT? Do you think its coincidence that they play the army combination that reaps the most benefit from those rules?

There is a reason why you shouldnt play in your own tournaments and this is precisley why.

Edit since more posts came in while writing.
To all who sais that Yak and Cent have nothing to say about the rules in the TT, are you serious? They might not havent been part of writing them, but dont you think the people who have their names on that paper listens to them? Come on.

Let's lay this out very clearly:

DD1 (of which I am a member) did not take a CSM & Daemon combination.

We took nothing but Chaos Daemons.

The "treat CSM Icons as Daemon Icons" ruling was irrelevant to our armies.

Kallbrand wrote:Thanks for the insults but did I ever say that they were in the INAT? Maybe read before you jump me on every post I make.

You mentioned the INAT FAQ and you have a history of negativity regarding it so don't act all innocent. I love you telling me to read when you ignore several posts including the post right above yours. You know, the one from the guy who ran the TT and said he met Yakface for the first time this past weekend.

Dont you think that Yak and Cent has anything to say about the rest of the rules they make for the TT? Do you think its coincidence that they play the army combination that reaps the most benefit from those rules?

IIRC, DD1 was pure Daemons. Daemons/CSM was the killer combo, the army that DD1 played AGAINST. Not to mention that Yak and Cent didn't write the rules for the TT.

There is a reason why you shouldnt play in your own tournaments and this is precisley why.

Yakface didn't run the TT, he helped run the Gladiator (which he didn't play in). He helped make the INAT FAQ but would you say Alessio couldn't play at Adepticon cause he helped write the rules for 40k?

You keep trying to find anything possible to denigrate Yak and co but frankly at this point you are not only wrong, but you are making stuff up to try and support your own delusions.

Edit since more posts came in while writing.
To all who sais that Yak and Cent have nothing to say about the rules in the TT, are you serious? They might not havent been part of writing them, but dont you think the people who have their names on that paper listens to them? Come on.

*sigh* Well since lack of proof is proof to you....

Janthkin said it but I'll say it again: THE TT RULING WAS IN NO WAY A BENEFIT TO YAKFACE AND CENTURION99 AS THEY DIDN'T PLAY CSM/DAEMONS, IN FACT IT HURT THEM AS IT WAS USED BY THEIR OPPONENTS.

Kallbrand wrote:Thanks for the insults but did I ever say that they were in the INAT? Maybe read before you jump me on every post I make.

Dont you think that Yak and Cent has anything to say about the rest of the rules they make for the TT? Do you think its coincidence that they play the army combination that reaps the most benefit from those rules?

There is a reason why you shouldnt play in your own tournaments and this is precisley why.

Edit since more posts came in while writing.
To all who sais that Yak and Cent have nothing to say about the rules in the TT, are you serious? They might not havent been part of writing them, but dont you think the people who have their names on that paper listens to them? Come on.

The TT rules were written years ago. Waaaaayyyy before the INAT. Waaaayyyyyyyyy before either of them were involved with AdeptiCon.

Just to be very, very, very, very clear. The TT rules were written by Jeff Chua years ago. They have been updated every year by Jeff (but are 95% the same as the year before). I have helped run the TT from day one. This year Jeff could not devote the time required to run the convention let alone the tournament so I volunteered to continue. Yak, DD1, Bill Kim had nothing at all to do with the TT rules. Period.

Was the Icons clarification a bit over the top? Perhaps, but it wasn't a state secret and available to all since November. This was not a rules call made at the convention. It was a clarification that was part of the TT ruleset on how wargear interacted as published on the website.

Janthkin wrote:Let's lay this out very clearly:

DD1 (of which I am a member) did not take a CSM & Daemon combination.

We took nothing but Chaos Daemons.

The "treat CSM Icons as Daemon Icons" ruling was irrelevant to our armies.

Ha!...why am I even bothering to explain this then!

Time for something important...like walking the dogs.

Malfred likes this thread.

Since I started this, let me clarify my comments.

I am not upset at Toledo for using a rule everyone had equal access to, nor Matt for making the rule.

Also people please, let’s put this in perspective… it was not a game breaking rule that made for a overwhelming advantage, but gave an army with a certain combo a little boost.

I think since this was the first year of the demon codex in play, they make a ruling that makes a lot of sense from the fluff perspective.

I was just stating my opinion that it was perhaps a powerful combo that was overlooked because of the fluff, and the newness of the rules for demons, but in hindsight might be too powerful of a combination for future team tournaments.

Janthkin wrote:

malfred wrote:You guys should have Janthkin's Eldar. Sexy metallic chrome... or whatever. I'm guessing
metallic airbrush paint. Hot purple.

Very nice.

Thanks...but damn it all, my Eldar have had the least time put into them, aren't even finished, and get far more positive comments than anythinig else I've ever painted.

The lesson is obvious: don't try.

(It's actually "Metallic Periwinkle", by Folk Art - cost you $1/3 oz. at your local Michaels. "Metallic Red Copper" for the other parts. And yes, some quality time with the airbrush.)

I have a buddy back in montana that used color changing paint airbrushed onto his necrons. He wins oodles of pain awards just because the effect is good, not because of any real honest skill put into them.

At least he admits that he didn't put much effort into them, but it sure is discouraging when those models get accolades and your painstaking details on other armies go un-noticed.

Its a rather cheap trick, but if it gets the plebelians muttering then I guess its good.

team toledo keeps adding the trophies to the wall. they must be getting tired of all the win!

Hellfury wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

malfred wrote:You guys should have Janthkin's Eldar. Sexy metallic chrome... or whatever. I'm guessing
metallic airbrush paint. Hot purple.

Very nice.

Thanks...but damn it all, my Eldar have had the least time put into them, aren't even finished, and get far more positive comments than anythinig else I've ever painted.

The lesson is obvious: don't try.

(It's actually "Metallic Periwinkle", by Folk Art - cost you $1/3 oz. at your local Michaels. "Metallic Red Copper" for the other parts. And yes, some quality time with the airbrush.)

I have a buddy back in montana that used color changing paint airbrushed onto his necrons. He wins oodles of pain awards just because the effect is good, not because of any real honest skill put into them.

At least he admits that he didn't put much effort into them, but it sure is discouraging when those models get accolades and your painstaking details on other armies go un-noticed.

Its a rather cheap trick, but if it gets the plebelians muttering then I guess its good.

Are you calling me a pube!

Oh, plebe. Nevermind. Carry on!

Wow just wow... Seems like pretty uncontestable proof for Buddhists that karma is truly a beeotch. Hee.



G

Oh, come ON guys. You should finally let Kallibrand in on the truth.

We all just sit around and drink all day and all night. Whoever is the last one awake gets to make up the "standings".

Adepticon's just a giant drinking contest.

Iorek wrote:Oh, come ON guys. You should finally let Kallibrand in on the truth.

We all just sit around and drink all day and all night. Whoever is the last one awake gets to make up the "standings".

Adepticon's just a giant drinking contest.

I would like to believe that, but a wine kooler between Mike and Greg is enough to get them into the same bed

Kallbrand wrote:Thanks for the insults but did I ever say that they were in the INAT? Maybe read before you jump me on every post I make.

Dont you think that Yak and Cent has anything to say about the rest of the rules they make for the TT? Do you think its coincidence that they play the army combination that reaps the most benefit from those rules?

As has been said:

#1 - We did a pure daemons army. Pure Khorne, 2/3 Khorne-1/3 Tzeentch, 2/3 Tzeentch-1/3 Khorne, and Pure Tzeentch.

#2 - Events at AdeptiCon are actually very decentralized for that reason.

Being a volunteer-run event, people who run or work on events are doing so just for the love of the hobby and in return, get some event tickets comp'ed. The individual events are totally the province of their Event Organizer, one or two people who write up the rules for the event, write up the missions, and are responsible for having the missions playtested (usually by running primers). Aside from that, we take deliberate steps to keep each event isolated from the others. Questions specific to one event (for example, codex interaction for the team tourney or super-heavy clarifications for the gladiator) are routed to the organizer in question. Final missions aren't available to anyone except the organizer for that tournement, or the Executive Council (Matt, Hank, & Jeff).

Kallbrand wrote:
There is a reason why you shouldnt play in your own tournaments and this is precisley why.

Organizers/staff don't play in their own tournaments. As I said, however, each tournament is decentralized...having all the tourney organizers collaborate on the INAT FAQ, for example, is an exception, not the rule.

Kallbrand wrote:
Edit since more posts came in while writing.
To all who sais that Yak and Cent have nothing to say about the rules in the TT, are you serious? They might not havent been part of writing them, but dont you think the people who have their names on that paper listens to them? Come on.

Sure they listen to us...and they listen to everyone else who has suggestions or comments as well.

They also don't accept everything we say. Which is fine. I know as Gladiator Organizer I explicitly ignored one set of suggestions from Yakface, and even another from Jeff Chua (one of AdeptiCon's Execs.) I also took suggestions from many other people too numerous to name who had feedback on the primer missions or even posted comments online, when writing the rules for the event and creating the missions. Since many of them ended up playing in the Gladiator, does that make anyone who makes suggestions culpable as well?

It's kind of related to something we discussed during post-convention drinking on Sunday night, actually. The 40K Invitational (an invite-only event run concurrently with the Championships on Sunday) had sportsmanship scoring, but when I looked at the final standings, Sportsmanship scoring was a joke, really. Out of 28 players, 23 had maximum sports scores, 2 had near-max sports, and 3 had lower scores because they had to drop out and get on the road or catch flights (incoming snow in April scared a bunch of people). I thought it was something of a joke, but Chris (who ran the event) pointed out that what else could we expect when the players involved often knew each other.

Which made sense when I thought about it for a bit - to get into the invitational, you needed to be on the top tables at a 2008 Tourney Circuit event, and getting there often means acquainting yourself with the others who are playing at that level. Barring a few personal conflicts, we mostly all get along quite well...after all, we're all there because we love playing the same game.

AdeptiCon got started because as the GT's became less "grand" some vets from the GT circuit got together and decided to throw a convention that they would want to attend. Anyone who joins the team does so because they want to give a bit back. The idea that we put hundreds of hours into running the con so that we can give each other plaques and box sets of plastic figs is quite simply ludicrous.

Centurian99 summed everything up really well. Bill and I were the only one's who knew the Gladiator missions up until about two weeks before the con when we had to finally send them to the executive council for final review and printing. The same goes for all of the other AdeptiCon events including the team tournament. The only input that was received from other event organizers was off the primer missions, which were available to everyone for comment.

Augustus wrote:So next week is the adpeticon Team Tourney (among other wonderful things!) What codex do you think has what it takes to win the whole thing!? Elaborate on the army if you wish!

I'm betting that a codex won't win anything, but that a person will win by rolling dice and pushing models around. the codex will lay on the table and only play a part when a rule is looked up.

I was part of the TT group that decided that cross-icon summoning would be allowed (months ago).

It was thematically fun, and gave a minor boost to a cross-codex combination, where all the other boosts favoured coalitions running all the same codex (which, is a bit boring, IMO).

For example, this year the all chaos-daemon army was allowed to run Fateweaver, Changeling, Skulltaker, and Ku'thagth. Or the all Marine codex team can run Vulkan, Kantor, Sicarius, and Telion.

The mixed codex lists were allowed one named character, total.

It wasn't just the Chaos Icons either, as other codexes with same-name wargear were allowed to utilize each other's as well. This is mostly beneficial to the imperium players, as with five different marine codexes and three other imperial codexes, they have a lot more overlapping items.

Its just quite humorous that Allen was complaining about a rule when his three other team mates were on rules committees.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Its just quite humorous that Allen was complaining about a rule when his three other team mates were on rules committees.

G

I know right? Man, what a laugh, you'd think someone would have already made insinuations or jokes about that or something.

Oh...


Nice try GBF but I expect better from you next time.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Its just quite humorous that Allen was complaining about a rule when his three other team mates were on rules committees.

Did I get put onto a rules committee, and no one told me?!?

PLEASE don't spout off erroneous rumors. The Adepticon folks do a hell of a job, and don't need anything that will provoke additional criticism from certain people who are no longer allowed to post here.

Booyah! Sounds like Adepticon proves that the Chaos Demonbomb from 3rd edition is not dead!

Well, I'm just glad it wasn't Orks that won.

There were a lot of them, they are cool, but after all the lootas and bike nobz talk I'm glad it wasnt that.

It was a great event cheers to all, and thanks to the organizers!

Janthkin wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Its just quite humorous that Allen was complaining about a rule when his three other team mates were on rules committees.

Did I get put onto a rules committee, and no one told me?!?

PLEASE don't spout off erroneous rumors. The Adepticon folks do a hell of a job, and don't need anything that will provoke additional criticism from certain people who are no longer allowed to post here.

Okay so two people... I thought you were on one of the rules committees as well.

Ozymandias wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Its just quite humorous that Allen was complaining about a rule when his three other team mates were on rules committees.

G

I know right? Man, what a laugh, you'd think someone would have already made insinuations or jokes about that or something.

Oh...


Nice try GBF but I expect better from you next time.

I just find it quite the h00t. You have to admit it is very funny. I don't Allen thought that post through much before clicking the SUBMIT button. It is no big deal really.

G

There were several teams in the running to win the TT. Dakka 1 and Reoccurring Nightmare were the top table for game 4 yes, but the Warmongers and Da Boyz were not far behind. Had Dakka and RN drew one another then one of those other 2 had a shot at taking the overall depending how their own games played out.

The rule that allowed Chaos and Deamons to work was made by the TO for the TT and not by those of us in the INAT.

Fact is, I think teams like those mentioned above can go to any tourney and be top contenders every time. I have nothing but respect for the players in all those teams. They played hard and earned that respect over years of consistent playing.

Yeah, those contenders are usual suspects because they always play well, bring nails armies, and paint well too.

I was happy that one of our teams cracked the top ten, even if it wasn't mine.

I'm also happy that I managed to call the winning codex, though disappointed that it wasn't MY CSM.