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Techpriest: If they gave the lowly gauss rifle poison,I'd probably..well I dunno what I'd do, but I'd probably have to change cloths. That's potentially 40 shots hitting on 3s, wounding ANYTHING on 4s. Am I understanding you correctly?

Flayed ones fix is fairly simple. Let'em assault directly after deepstriking. Give'em fleet if your feeling generous. Or, more "fluffy" per se is to let'em deepstrike into an enemy unit as the description is infiltrating, ambushing.

CC destroyers would be exceptionaly interesting to me. However, what do you equip them with? What's their advantage over Wraiths?

yeah, all gauss weapons as poison would be wayyy too OP, unless we're misunderstanding you Mars Techpriest...

Also, epic thoughts on the flayed ones, but expanding on it a bit more: If they deepstrike, and scatter (or even direct hit) an enemy unit (infantry or tanks) they do not role deep strike mishap, but rather are placed into Base Contact, with pile in moves made in the CC phase (neither counts as charging)

Also, about the CC destroyers: Their called Wraiths. We shouldn't add even MORE CC to this army, because as SsevenN has already pointed out, we have a lot (Pariahs, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs, Tomb Spiders, C'tan; Half of the army list), so we should just focus on making each of those unique and usable in regular games.

Flux Whip Nerf : Done.

Every time I have played against Necrons I have lost. A decent list is pretty much all you need with them to be competitive, and some basic tactics to be affective.

Skinnattittar:WHY would you want to nerf the only real decent actual-tank-killing weapon Necrons have? (Sure their is the heavy gauss cannon, but meh)

Also, I am actually kinda curious what kinds of lists this Necron player you can't beat uses...

If a tourny I played last week is any indication, its the Monolith. Everybody shoots at it, it laughs at you, and theoretically the rest of the army goes on its merry way. In my case, all the way to a draw, but my Monoliths didn't die.

I think that necrons should have the ability to ignore the AP on weapons and the effects of power weapons. If the are suppose to be able to ignore grievous wounds and re-knit, then how about just counting them as having weapons be not as effective against them? It makes them not be so much like PM's and they are VERY tough to take down. Toughness 5 all around might be OK but is probably NOT necessary. Also, necrons should be the Relentless USR or their guns should be assault 1-2. This makes up for their lack of movement by extending their reach.

Necrons need mobility? So lets give it to them!

Phaser

Points: 150 *whatever*
AV 12 | 12 | 11

Living Metal
Deep Strike

Power Matrix: *except change the first option to allow the Phaser to use two TL Gauss Blasters*

This allows necrons a cheap x-port unit. It won't carry them, but it allows necrons to have "mini monoliths" to run around and teleport them places. It's not that strong of a shooter but it should live. It's main purpose is that fact that it's cheaper AND it can move up to 12" a turn.

Idk how they are going to fix pariahs or anything else. Maybe making flayed ones troops would fix them and allow you some assault troops.

EzeKK wrote:I think that necrons should have the ability to ignore the AP on weapons and the effects of power weapons. If the are suppose to be able to ignore grievous wounds and re-knit, then how about just counting them as having weapons be not as effective against them?

Something must have the ability to kill necrons well.

If power weapons and and plasma is rendered a waste of points, lasguns and choppas become the way to kill them. That becomes silly, though, in the same way that Storm Shield terminators are silly. Small arms fire should not be the bane of the most resilient and heavily armored troops.

I know how GW plans to fix them.

1) They've been eaten by Tyranids, just like a certain race of space Dwarves...
2) Replace with Undead Space Marines.
3) Profit.

EzeKK wrote:I think that necrons should have the ability to ignore the AP on weapons and the effects of power weapons. If the are suppose to be able to ignore grievous wounds and re-knit, then how about just counting them as having weapons be not as effective against them? It makes them not be so much like PM's and they are VERY tough to take down. Toughness 5 all around might be OK but is probably NOT necessary. Also, necrons should be the Relentless USR or their guns should be assault 1-2. This makes up for their lack of movement by extending their reach.

Necrons need mobility? So lets give it to them!

Phaser

Points: 150 *whatever*
AV 12 | 12 | 11

Living Metal
Deep Strike

Power Matrix: *except change the first option to allow the Phaser to use two TL Gauss Blasters*

This allows necrons a cheap x-port unit. It won't carry them, but it allows necrons to have "mini monoliths" to run around and teleport them places. It's not that strong of a shooter but it should live. It's main purpose is that fact that it's cheaper AND it can move up to 12" a turn.

Idk how they are going to fix pariahs or anything else. Maybe making flayed ones troops would fix them and allow you some assault troops.

I think ignoring AP and PW wounds is a bit much, because as has been said lots of small arms fire will be the only thing to take them down.
Also, relentless, as I have said before, yes it would be nice: Having long range shots at 24", or lots of shots within 12" (if you know you're screwed)

Also, about the Vehicle thing, I had sort of had another idea (which may have been said a long time ago already, but whatever):
-Let's take your tank, make it AV12 all around (why would a necron vehicle have a weaker rear facing?)
-Power Matrix: The (tank name, not sure of a decent name) can teleport units towards itself (as per the Monolith power matrix rules). ALSO, instead of doing this, a unit of Necrons can embark into the vehicle, and instantly deep strike anywhere on the table....this gives you the option of getting necrons out of CC and near the tank, OR get a unit away from the tank, but not both per turn.
-Give it say a Gauss Cannon or two (and give them 360º LOS; why wouldn't necrons have weapons that can always get a target?)

Just another idea

Skinnattittar wrote:Flux Whip Nerf : Done.

Every time I have played against Necrons I have lost. A decent list is pretty much all you need with them to be competitive, and some basic tactics to be affective.

Good to see that you understand the Necron codex and the many issues surrounding most of the units, especially under 5th ed. /sarcasm

Firstly what list does this guy run and secondly how does changing the stats on one (1!!!) weapon make the Necron army list balanced? The Particle whip isn't even that ridiculous, essentially its a short ranged battle cannon with +1 strength. Oh, and if you have never won a game against Necrons that doesn't tell me that Necrons are over powered, it tells me you don't know how to play against them.

Well, I am going to undertake reading this whole thread but I have to say, Terminator Salvation rocks when thinking about Necrons! That's how they should feel

In reality, there's little that the Gauss rifle doesn't wound on a 4+ already. Warbosses, Space Marine Bikers, Obiderators, Wraithguard/lords, Monsterus Creatres. With the possable exception fo the Warboss, these all have good armor saves that would midigate the damage.

I otherwise find it funny that a volly of guass rifles can take down a landraider, then have a harder time on a space marine assault bike.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:I otherwise find it funny that a volly of guass rifles can take down a landraider, then have a harder time on a space marine assault bike.

Yeah, but that's because Gauss has a rule (SORT OF similar to rending) against vehicles, but if you had that against everyone non-vehicle, it would probably be a bit op

@Eight Ball: They do have it against non-vehicles. Any roll of 6 to wound/penetrate gives a wound/glancing hit.

@Tech Priest: The standard gun the necrons use doesn't wound all that stuff on 4s. It's a bolter with special rules. I do agree that generally the armor save of the unit in question shrugs off the wounds generally.

Interesting thing; Living Metal. Why not make it so that all weapons get -1 Str against it, and any additional penetration dice are reduced to d3? And Armor can only be reduced by 1. So a melta firing would be Str 7 with d6+d3 armor penetration. So it would actually become a bit easier, but also a bit harder to kill. And this makes Living Metal unique.

Necron Soul Hunter

BS: 4 AV: F:11 S:11: R:11
Fast Skimmer

Armament: Two Heavy Gauss Flayers (Str 6 Ap 4, Heavy 2, Gauss)
Other Equipment: Targeting Scanner (Models must reroll successful cover saves), Searchlight, 1 Gauss Missile (Str 8 Ap 3, Heavy 1,Gauss one shot only, unlimited range)

Special Rules:
Living Metal (Weapons firing at this model get -1 Str. Additional armor penetration dice are reduced to a d3, and this model's armor can only be reduced by 1.)
Scout


Something faster for the Necrons. No prize awarded for guessing where this came from.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Interesting thing; Living Metal. Why not make it so that all weapons get -1 Str against it, and any additional penetration dice are reduced to d3? And Armor can only be reduced by 1. So a melta firing would be Str 7 with d6+d3 armor penetration. So it would actually become a bit easier, but also a bit harder to kill. And this makes Living Metal unique.

If you're gonna do all that, why not just keep it as is?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Necron Soul Hunter

BS: 4 AV: F:11 S:11: R:11
Fast Skimmer

Armament: Two Heavy Gauss Flayers (Str 6 Ap 4, Heavy 2, Gauss)
Other Equipment: Targeting Scanner (Models must reroll successful cover saves), Searchlight, 1 Gauss Missile (Str 8 Ap 3, Heavy 1,Gauss one shot only, unlimited range)

Special Rules:
Living Metal (Weapons firing at this model get -1 Str. Additional armor penetration dice are reduced to a d3, and this model's armor can only be reduced by 1.)
Scout


Something faster for the Necrons. No prize awarded for guessing where this came from.

The thing is though, Necrons don't NEED anything this fast (especially with destroyers: 12" move + 36" shots), and this doesn't really fit the fluff that well (Why would the necrons have a weak fast skimmer with ONE missile on it?)

EDIT:Also, the stats of your "Heavy Gauss Flayers" S6 AP4 Heavy2, is already very similar to the Gauss Cannon: S6 AP4 Heavy3, except the gauss cannon is better

Sarge wrote:@Tech Priest: The standard gun the necrons use doesn't wound all that stuff on 4s. It's a bolter with special rules. I do agree that generally the armor save of the unit in question shrugs off the wounds generally.

I know, I was quoting the stuff it doesn't wound on a 4+ or better. Bolters are able to wound the same level of things. The problem with Gauss's 'always wound on a 6' rule is that it's useless, at least outside of Apoc. In order for a Gauss Rifle not to wound something on a 6, it would need to have a Toughnes of 9 or 10. Which only Super-deamons and Gargantuan creatres have.

As for the Living Metal rule, I agree with Eight Ball, the combination system given is even more complicated then the current rule, and changes it from invulnerable to Melta (and other multi-dies) to almost only volnerable to Melta or other multi-die attacks. (Only Str 10 could pen without an additional die) Honestly, with the new damage table, The Monolith is nearly impossable to crack open. Unless its abilities jump it to 500pts, it doesn't really need additional defences.

Personaly, I think any other (non walker) vehicle would detract from the Monolith/Obolisk etc. Same reason why there's no Walkers in the Tau Codex.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:

Sarge wrote:@Tech Priest: The standard gun the necrons use doesn't wound all that stuff on 4s. It's a bolter with special rules. I do agree that generally the armor save of the unit in question shrugs off the wounds generally.

I know, I was quoting the stuff it doesn't wound on a 4+ or better. Bolters are able to wound the same level of things. The problem with Gauss's 'always wound on a 6' rule is that it's useless, at least outside of Apoc. In order for a Gauss Rifle not to wound something on a 6, it would need to have a Toughnes of 9 or 10. Which only Super-deamons and Gargantuan creatres have.

As for the Living Metal rule, I agree with Eight Ball, the combination system given is even more complicated then the current rule, and changes it from invulnerable to Melta (and other multi-dies) to almost only volnerable to Melta or other multi-die attacks. (Only Str 10 could pen without an additional die) Honestly, with the new damage table, The Monolith is nearly impossable to crack open. Unless its abilities jump it to 500pts, it doesn't really need additional defences.

Personaly, I think any other (non walker) vehicle would detract from the Monolith/Obolisk etc. Same reason why there's no Walkers in the Tau Codex.

I agree with all of this.

However, in regards to gauss guns: Sure, it doesn't make sense that they can glance tanks but not cut through infantry armor, but as has been said that would be too OP army-wide. However, there could be something like "On a roll of a 6 to wound, the target receives a -1 roll to his Armor Save (so that a marine would fail his save on a 3, termie on a 2, etc)"

Save modifiers have been dead since 2nd Ed. Don't get your hopes up.

Word, maybe for vehicles it should be changed so that if more than one 6 is rolled then it causes a glancing hit. This way it represents that Gauss blasts are combining to strip away chunks of the vehicle instead of one lucky shot blowing out a chunk of the engine, tanks treads, or whatever.

Collective armor penetration? Like rather then roll seperate penetrations, you can replace the d6 with the number of additional hits? (4+d6 becomes 4+number of hits. 11 hits to penetrate a land raider) That could be interesting.

Untill their most recent codexes, both Orks and Chaos had max 4+ save weapons. But I don't think those will return soon.

Hate to say it, but Rending almost seems like the most logical answer. Just basic Str 4, AP 5 24", Rapid Fire, Rending.

If they are going to make it Rending then I would say that it needs downgraded to Strength 3. Rending could be nasty, but at S3 it takes the pain off a little.

yes, but again, rending won't help glance anything reliably (you still gotta roll d3 penetration, adding even more dice rolls) especially AV14 which they won't be able to glance at all. However, anything AV12 or less could get a penetrating hit, and gauss cannons could take down land raiders....

I see your respective points, and agree.

At risk of semi-adding a new rule, how about just changing Gauss to on a 6 Ignore armor save/Auto-glance vehicles?

As a note, reducing the guns Str. doesn't make rending any less nasty, as you'd have the same number of dice to roll a 6 on. In a 10 Necron squad at close range, you'd get about 6 rending hits, which just about makes up for not being able to take plasma guns or other such special weapons. And keeps the 'damn gauss rifle who's lucky shot can kill anything'

Again Mars, and not to sound like a dick, but the real problem I see with this is:

At risk of semi-adding a new rule, how about just changing Gauss to on a 6 Ignore armor save/Auto-glance vehicles?

is that, like rending, having this on basic warriors means that (yes on lucky dice rolls) the weapons can get past say terminator armor...not good....the only thing I had thought about this was to do something to modify say their save (but that wasn't taken well) or to add something even weirder (ex:Gun is AP5, anything with better than 5+ armor just takes a 5+ save) but still leaves a dilemma of the gun being either wayy too good, or unfluffily bolter-"weak"

How about make the Gauss rifle with the following statline.

Gauss Rifle 24" S:4 AP:5 Rapid Fire (Poisoned: 5+ unless you would otherwise wound on lower. Armor Flaying: Instead of rolling as normal when attempting to damage a vehicle instead roll only once adding one strength to the attack, to a maximum of 10 strength. Should you have additional hits beyond ten strength add +1 to the result on the damage chart to a maximum of +2.)

EDIT: The rules may seem long on this one, but that seems to be a Necron trait. XD

I think the power of the rending rule is somewhat mitigated by their complete inability to take special weapons. I also mis-wrote the math in my last post.

It's worth noting that anyone can kill a terminator with a lucky hit, a rending weapon just has to be slightly less lucky. 10 necron will take out 1.11 terminators with out rending
10 necron will take out 1.59 terminators with rending (thanks to their inv. save)

And that's within rapid fire range against a rending weapons best target. It seems a lot scarier then it is.

I actually like save modifiers, but they are out of fashion right now, so it's not likely to be implemented any time soon.

As for Poison 5+, that really limites it's effect to TMC & Wrathguard/lords And personally, I still like the flurry of glances, even though that seemes to make stun everything more effective then destroy one thing.

Another direction to take the guass rifle is to increase its rate of fire. A permanent FRFSRF so to speak.
Guass: Str 4 AP 5 24" Rapid Fire, Always fire one additional shot to normal.
This basicly doubles the necrons effectiveness at long range, and increases by 50% their shooting at short range, generating that many new hits, and therefore glances.

By that thinking why not just shorten the range and make it Assault 2.

Gauss: Str 4 AP 5 18" Assault 2+ current rules. You have an extra shot outside of 12", but your not getting 30 shots at close range.

Because then it's a DA Sherken Catapult.

Anyway, I like the fire getting more intence as they get closer.

lol good point. The last thing we want to do is make the Necrons anything at all like the Eldar *dodges shuriken catapult shot*