Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

generalgrog wrote:Look fetterkey obviously has an axe to grind here. The bottomline... if you don't like the format.... just don't go to it. Stop whining.


GG

Still doesn't change the fact that he's, you know, completely right. The format is bad.

Wise man once say

Play the game by all of the rules, don’t expect your house rules to become the standard.

He also say

There is no unbeatable list, no perfect build, and lists themselves don’t care at all if they win or lose. Any list can be fun or terrible to play against, so don’t roll your eyes at a list and groan, make the best of it and move on....If your local tournaments are being dominated by particular lists, build to beat those lists yourself.

Where he go? :}

Danny Internets wrote:

generalgrog wrote:Look fetterkey obviously has an axe to grind here. The bottomline... if you don't like the format.... just don't go to it. Stop whining.


GG

Still doesn't change the fact that he's, you know, completely right. The format is bad.

You forgot to add.... IN MY OPNINION.

Opinions are great aren't they?

GG

Well the fact that it's coming out of his mouth means it's his opinion, doesn't it?

I say we should get opinion tags to avoid further confusion!

This thread is deteriorating. Please keep it polite with the disagreements (and generalgrog said it best: if you don't like it, don't go).

Sidstyler wrote:Well the fact that it's coming out of his mouth means it's his opinion, doesn't it?

I say we should get opinion tags to avoid further confusion!

Well some people seem to think that their opinions are in indeed fact.

GG

generalgrog wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Well the fact that it's coming out of his mouth means it's his opinion, doesn't it?

I say we should get opinion tags to avoid further confusion!

Well some people seem to think that their opinions are in indeed fact.

GG

Heh. I've seen your posts in the OT forum...


I tend to agree with Yak's points but frankly the tournament isn't going to change now so the only thing to do is sit back and wait to see how it goes. Either jwolf is going to be right or Yak is going to be right and then one of them can gloat.

Ozymandias wrote:Either jwolf is going to be right or Yak is going to be right and then one of them can gloat.

I really hope for no gloating either way. But, hey, this is the Internet. Low expectations.

Yak doesn't strike me as the kinda guy that gloats. I mean he looks like Connery and as far as I know the gloating was always against him when he's strapped to a table with a DOOM laser aimed at his pride or something like that.

Ok apparently I need a smiley or something so that people know I'm joking about the gloating bit.

What I tried to do with this post is try to inform the organizers of the event of a huge potential problem.

I play almost exclusively in tournaments, and the bigger the better. I like the format and the competition.

What I do not like is being rushed. I play small armies and I play fast, but I still have trouble finishing games against the wrong player/armies. Greg (Inquisitor Malice) Sparks told me that I have to keep a timer on the table (normally a cell phone) to constantly be aware of the time (even) when it was projected on the wall. He also told me that I have to hurry my opponent along if they are taking to long by constantly reminding them of the time, and keep telling them that when the time is close to the end of the game tell them that we are getting to at least turn #5 no matter what.

That is one way of dealing with the time issue, but I do not want to constantly pressure my opponents with the time, and I do not want to be under the same pressure. I find it not enjoyable.

I travel far for tournaments. I drive from Los Angeles to Sacramento and from Jacksonville to Tampa (both 5+ hours). I also fly to Chitown for Adepticon and the Baltimore GT, so I am willing to pay some $$$ for a good time.

But before I play $250 to fly to Austin, $250 for the hotel room and $45 for the tournament I need to know at least in theory they are doing everything right.

Unfortunately I have concerns and I guess I am the problem because I should be able to finish a 2000 point game against Orks in 2 hours, but since I can’t I have to pass. It is too bad because they canceled the GTs, I have been Jonesing for a good tournament and I like the 7 game format and the pseudo -Swiss style.

Blackmoor wrote:Unfortunately I have concerns and I guess I am the problem because I should be able to finish a 2000 point game against Orks in 2 hours, but since I can’t I have to pass.

It is kinda funny because you and JWolf are probably exactly on the same page; if you want to talk being slow-played by Orks, then JWolf is the man to talk to. He'll talk your ear off.

In fact, that specific problem was the source of a long argument between he and I (and the rest of the locals) in our local tournament off-season. As a result of deliberate slow-playing in local tournaments, one game store has instituted a policy that if you don't finish at least one of your three games in the day you can be excluded from prizes. So if you slow-play your way to victory, you could get DQ'ed. I personally was against it (especially with my track record of not finishing games), but it turns out that it hasn't even come up this year (6 monthly tournaments into the season). I did notice that this type of penalty is not in place for BoLSCon, and I'm happy to see that.

It is my hope that reports from the event are good and you decide to join us next year. For competitive gaming, Austin really is one of the best places to be.

Blackmoor wrote:What I tried to do with this post is try to inform the organizers of the event of a huge potential problem.

I play almost exclusively in tournaments, and the bigger the better. I like the format and the competition.

What I do not like is being rushed. I play small armies and I play fast, but I still have trouble finishing games against the wrong player/armies. Greg (Inquisitor Malice) Sparks told me that I have to keep a timer on the table (normally a cell phone) to constantly be aware of the time (even) when it was projected on the wall. He also told me that I have to hurry my opponent along if they are taking to long by constantly reminding them of the time, and keep telling them that when the time is close to the end of the game tell them that we are getting to at least turn #5 no matter what.

That is one way of dealing with the time issue, but I do not want to constantly pressure my opponents with the time, and I do not want to be under the same pressure. I find it not enjoyable.

I travel far for tournaments. I drive from Los Angeles to Sacramento and from Jacksonville to Tampa (both 5+ hours). I also fly to Chitown for Adepticon and the Baltimore GT, so I am willing to pay some $$$ for a good time.

But before I play $250 to fly to Austin, $250 for the hotel room and $45 for the tournament I need to know at least in theory they are doing everything right.

Unfortunately I have concerns and I guess I am the problem because I should be able to finish a 2000 point game against Orks in 2 hours, but since I can’t I have to pass. It is too bad because they canceled the GTs, I have been Jonesing for a good tournament and I like the 7 game format and the pseudo -Swiss style.

Oh come on Allan. You need to come down here to play. I need to buy you at least three or four drinks

and maybe you too Steve

I looked over the BoLS FAQ and was pleasantly surprised. It's only 12 pages and I agree with most the rulings so kudos to the BoLS crew on a good job. Still I think you should strongly consider lowering the points a bit. If you cranked the time per round up to 2.5 hours the first day that is 2 extra hours and 1.5 hours the second day... That's a lot of extra time for sure and why I suggest thinking about lowering the points. However at the end of the day it's your tournament so you should run it as you wish. If it all goes off without a hitch you'll reap the praise. Again I wish you the best of luck wif it. I think this has lots of potential. Like I said earlier my mom is coming down for a visit that weekend so I can't play this year but if I hear a lot of good things I'll certainly consider playing next year 4 sho.

: )

G

2000 points in two hours? LOL! They're begging for a bunch of nidzilla/nob biker/deffwing w/ shrike armies aren't they?

I'm new to the Austin area. At a recent tourney with 2k/2hr turns I took a nid list that had roughly 80 models, 60+ of which were without-number gaunts. It was a list that was active in all three phases of the game. I played against 100% foot slogging marines, tau, and daemons, and I finished all three games within time, with only 1 game going up to the final minute. I had my reservations about the time limits too, but so long as you know your army it's not bad at all.

Also, speaking towards the no-allies rule: Maybe 1/2 the people in the community are running guard right now. If disallowing guard & marines the ability to take inquisitorial allies means we won't see an assassin with a potential assault 20 AP2 pistol, or that daemons other deep striking armies stay viable, then I'm all for it. People who play an inquisition force can still induct to keep those forces strong vs the newer lists.


SteveW

SteveW wrote:Also, speaking towards the no-allies rule: Maybe 1/2 the people in the community are running guard right now. If disallowing guard & marines the ability to take inquisitorial allies means we won't see an assassin with a potential assault 20 AP2 pistol, or that daemons other deep striking armies stay viable, then I'm all for it. People who play an inquisition force can still induct to keep those forces strong vs the newer lists.


SteveW

The Culexus Assassin animus spam, like the Psyker Battle Squad that is needed to use it effectively, is a gimmick, and not even a powerful gimmick like Nob Bikers. Regardless of whether Inquisition units are actually good, though, restricting them hurts the state of the metagame as a whole by making the results of this tournament uncharacteristic of how the game is normally played and preventing people from drawing accurate conclusions from its results.

Placing restrictions on any race or army that Game Workshops allows in 40k is pure cow poop put in place to allow certain deep striking and lash welding armies to operated unhindered in a way not forecast by Game Workshops. The "They are too Powerful" thread is borne out by how many 1st, 2nd, or third place finishes in how many tourneys ?

Lets ban those Valks next.

Then lets go after Caprice armor, those IG don't need any stinking 4 saves, 5 should be enough.


"People who play an inquisition force can still induct to keep those forces strong vs the newer lists. "

Thank you for telling me how to play my army. I can now enjoy getting lashed all over the board and watch Deep striking marines tear up my HQ with no fear of them getting shot out of the sky.

Least any one doubt my opinion of these cheesy and beady tactics devised to help certain armies advance at BOLS and then still call it a 40K Event, let me say this

BOLS 2009 should be bypassed by all players this year.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:Placing restrictions on any race or army that Game Workshops allows in 40k is pure cow poop put in place to allow certain deep striking and lash welding armies to operated unhindered in a way not forecast by Game Workshops.

Thank you for telling me how to play my army. I can now enjoy getting lashed all over the board and watch Deep striking marines tear up my HQ with no fear of them getting shot out of the sky.

Least any one doubt my opinion of these cheesy and beady tactics devised to help certain armies advance at BOLS and then still call it a 40K Event, let me say this....

Fetterkey wrote:restricting them hurts the state of the metagame as a whole by making the results of this tournament uncharacteristic of how the game is normally played and preventing people from drawing accurate conclusions from its results.

Note- the quotes above are merely the most recent representative examples of individuals having disagreements with the tourney rules. The ideas expressed in the quotes above have been expressed multiple times throughout this thread by multiple individuals. My comments are not directed towards any specific person.


I'm not playing in the 40k tourney; I'm playing in the narrative events, so I have no personal stake in any of this. I'm just trying to point out the reasoning (as I understand it) behind some of the decisions especially after many posters have made completely unfounded accusations (such as a supposed desire to make lash armies unbeatable), and to give evidence that a 2k game in 2hrs isn't unreasonable.

Does it really matter if the results are applicable to the meta for every other tournament? Seriously, does it? Custom scenarios throw off the meta too, but I see very few complaints about having those. An argument could easily be made that being able to adjust tactics, army lists, and playstyles to different situations is the sign of a great general/player.

If you don't like the format, then don't play. Just consider this: every time you play in a tourney with a composition score you are allowing others to influence how you play your army and what is considered to be "fair". Why aren't the feral orks or squats, or lost and the damned lists legal? It's because someone decided they were no longer fair or balanced under the current rules. Anyone who has played in the adepticon gladiator has played under rules that are quite different from the normal 40k rules and allow models that arguably unbalance the game far more than disallowing allies, and yet the gladiator seems to be one of the most anticipated tournaments of the year.

As I said above, if you don't like the format, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play. But please at least be polite with your comments and quit the whining & bi***ing, and unfounded accusations about why the rules were set the way they are. I've only known the BOLS guys personally for a couple months, but they're good guys and I feel safe saying that they were only trying to do what they think is best for the game and the tournament. You may disagree with those decisions, and if so, then you have the right to run your own convention using the rules you think are best. I'm sure they would welcome your efforts.


SteveW

Personally my only beef is with the overall game time. As for restricting allies into space marines and guard from the WH/DH codexes i'm fine with that. I think a unit that everyone uses (2 mystics w/Inq.) is far to cheap for the current game. The codex is old and based around a time when you only got to deepstrike maybe 1 game in 3 at a tournament. They weren't designed with the idea of purely deepstriking armies (DoC). Though I will say they make a lot of sense in a DH list against DoC but should cost more.

And to be fair guys it's a little unreasonable to assume they are slanting the tournament in their favor by denying these units. I'll take it at face value that they are tired of gimmick ally rules and decided to say the heck with it.

I won't be attending simply because of the time limit. But if it was only a 6 hour drive or even if I was only in lubbock i'd head down for the weekend. It's the cost of the flight and not knowing if i'd get in my full games that keeps me from attending. I just don't want to pay good money to attend and not finish due to my opponents.

Attending or not I have to agree w/Steve. Don't assign motives that aren't there and are far more complicated than the probable reality.

LOL at the post below me

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

BOLS 2009 should be bypassed by all players this year.

You are certainly free to host your own gaming convention and set the rules as you think they should be set. I'm sure since you know how it should be organized you will have no problem setting one up yourself that is to your liking.

In the meantime, since GW isn't hosting GTs the rest of us will just have to make due will the Cons that others are kind enough to pour their time, money and energy into just so other gamers can have a great weekend. But I'm sure you are more than willing to show the rest of us here at Dakka the right way to do it.

So when will you be hosting a proper gaming Con in your city? I'll make sure to mark it on my calendar. Will you be able to get $4k+ in prize support for us, or can you top that as well?

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:BOLS 2009 should be bypassed by all players this year.

Keep it to yourself.

I think it's rather absurd to try and complain that your 45 point mystic squad can't be used to completely screw over every army with a lot of deep striking.

Because, you know, there's nothing else you can do against deep striking units! Every Imperial codex has a crippling weakness against deep striking units, that can only be compensated for with that allied mystic squad.

SteveW wrote:I've only known the BOLS guys personally for a couple months, but they're good guys and I feel safe saying that they were only trying to do what they think is best for the game and the tournament.

I agree with you there-- that's why I'm offering my advice. If I thought that the BoLS guys were trying to hurt the game, I wouldn't make these suggestions. I think that they are in fact trying to to what's best for the game, but that some of their rules (specifically, the ban on Inquisition units and the Army Builder stuff) are in fact hurting the game, so I'm suggesting that they change those rules.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think it's rather absurd to try and complain that your 45 point mystic squad can't be used to completely screw over every army with a lot of deep striking.

I don't use Mystics.

That was more in response to Needle's insinuation that deepstriking space marines would overrun people's armies without the mystics to balance them out.

And banning Inquisition units throws off the game far less than special missions often do; take some of the 'Ard Boys kill point rewrites for example.

The problem is BOLS has excluded units Game Workshops allows for 40K in its current rules.

At what point does a 40k tourney cease to be a 40k tourney and something else.

How many rules have to be thrown out?

If we ban Inquisitional allies and everyone says that ok, not that many folks will care and we think its still official 40k, what next?

Lash are used to abuse, we talking about banning them? How about PBS's, nobody but Imperials like them, lets ban them, is it still an official 40k Tourney?

Everyone hates Horde armies when trying to run an event in a certain time frame.

BOLS could ban Horde armies, all those Orcs and Nids, would help a lot with the time problems everyone is talking about.

How does that sound, still official 40k tourney? Think Game Workshops would agree?

Banning a small thing in a regional 40k event will lead to other tourneys elsewhere.

For those who are OK with the banning of Mystics and Psychic Hoods for IG armies, suppose it was a ban of Deep Striking or Valkyries, some folks have problems with those, would you be OK with banning them and still call it 40k? Would Game Workshops?

Mark my words you will have folks show up at BOLS and pull out their Inquistional Allies.

When BOLS tells them those are not allowed and they should have read all of the BOLS non 40K rules their response will be.

Is this not a 40k Tourney using the official current Game Workshops rules ? And BOLS will respond yeah but...... we felt like.....

How many violations of the Game Workshops rules makes a tourney not a 40k tourney?

One?

Two?

Which website did I read the articlies on about

Play the game by all of the rules, don’t expect your house rules to become the standard.

and

There is no unbeatable list, no perfect build, and lists themselves don’t care at all if they win or lose. Any list can be fun or terrible to play against, so don’t roll your eyes at a list and groan, make the best of it and move on....If your local tournaments are being dominated by particular lists, build to beat those lists yourself.

OH YEAH, it was BOLS

Lol

Needle they aren't banning armies. They aren't banning units in armies that are in their own book. They are banning units being allied from a 3rd edition codex to 2 of the most modern codexes.

This is being done probably for several reasons one of which is it truly is a crutch and a gimmick that doesn't have a place in the game. I guarentee that those units won't be available once the re-write goes thru as 40k has moved to an everything in your codex kind of game. So think of it as getting you ready for the future

Your overreacting more than a little here. This event (the main tournament) is obviously geared towards more competative players and generally competative players read the rules before they show up. Hence how this thread got started when Blackmoor read the rules about the tourney before attending.

@fetterkey

I agree with you about the required use of army builder. A lot of hobbyists don't have it and don't want to spend the money and it is asking a little to much, in my opinion, to force everyone to use army builder. But as stated above I have no problem disallowing units not found in your own codex.

Over ruling the Game Workshops Books and their current FAQ's is a bad idea for a major tourney to take.

Really do not care what game stopping thing they are trying to stop. The more offensive the thing is the quicker Game Workshops will issue a updated FAQ to address it. Until then one lives with it.

Live within the rules or don't. There is no third choice.

The current BOLS tourney will not live within the Official rules for 40K as written by Game Workshops.

It is a precedent that should not be supported.

Wow.....

Every tournament has comp rules and sportsmanship scores. All of them are different for the most part too. Show me where in their FAQ's, codexes, and rule book. These things have far more impact on the winner of a tourney than the disallowing of a single unit. GW allows you to run your tournament however you'd like. They managed to get a ton of prize support, some of it from GW I'd assume, which means that obviously GW doesn't have a problem with it.

Why are you dictating other peoples hobby to them? I might not agree with some of the things they are doing but at least their supporting the hobby as a whole.