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Krootman wrote:
Anyways I like the 2nd mission alot going to make a lot of people reconsider taking some of the nastier builds
I was thinking about taking Space Wolves, but this mission kills them.
I fully understand the extra points for HQ units to do exactly what he said. However the ONLY army I ever play in 40k is Space Wolves and I have been looking forward to this for months, and that mission alone just dropped a steamer on my chances.
My current list has 34 kill points in it under those rules, which could be simplified by saying "pray". If I dropped every heavy and elite I had I would still end up in the very high 20's due to the HQ requirements on SW. Average opponent will probably have around 20 and that is being pretty generous. I dunno if you CAN even play as cautious as that would require and still put up any offense. I have adjusted the weapons on My Ven Dread, tossed termi/runic armor on my three other HQ, and in the process sacrificed a troop unit/drop pod assault. I know the very small population of SW players in this means that it's either deal with it or play them as vanilla marines, but this is a major nutshot for us.
I can pretty much guess, but will all three have to be played through the three rounds or will they be random? Also will these rules carry over to the second round? If this is clearly stated somewhere I am sorry.
Kaotik wrote:I fully understand the extra points for HQ units to do exactly what he said. However the ONLY army I ever play in 40k is Space Wolves and I have been looking forward to this for months, and that mission alone just dropped a steamer on my chances.
My current list has 35 kill points in it under those rules, which could be simplified by saying "pray". If I dropped every heavy and elite I had I would still end up in the very high 20's due to the HQ requirements on SW. Average opponent will probably have around 20 and that is being pretty generous. I dunno if you CAN even play as cautious as that would require and still put up any offense. I have adjusted the weapons on my Ven Dread, tossed termi/runic armor on my three other HQ, and in the process had to sacrifice those points from other spots weakening the army in general to protect all four of my 5 troop squad equivalent KP's. I know the very small population of SW players in this means that it's either deal with it or play them as vanilla marines, but this is a major nutshot for us.
I can pretty much guess, but will all three have to be played through the three rounds or will they be random? Also will these rules carry over to the second round? If this is clearly stated somewhere I am sorry.
I think you're goin a little far here. 34 KP's in the second mission is actually kinda low if you consider that most of the Mech IG lists everyone is talking about runs about 39+ in the second mission, and is heavy on KP's in every other mission. Your wolves only have a handicap in one mission, and still work really well. There are other armies that suffer just as bad from this KP rule. (Eldar Seer Councils, DA or BA Honor Guards, Black Templars, Tau Crisis Bodyguards, for example) I think you'll end up just fine and this isn't the end of the world.
Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.
I think you're goin a little far here. 34 KP's in the second mission is actually kinda low if you consider that most of the Mech IG lists everyone is talking about runs about 39+ in the second mission, and is heavy on KP's in every other mission. Your wolves only have a handicap in one mission, and still work really well. There are other armies that suffer just as bad from this KP rule. (Eldar Seer Councils, DA or BA Honor Guards, Black Templars, Tau Crisis Bodyguards, for example) I think you'll end up just fine and this isn't the end of the world.
Ya I looked at my friends list for the tourny and he has like 28 so my assumed number on the opposition was way of and I edited the post. You made some points on the other lists though, but it was stated that the bodyguards for the council were one point and not the 5 stated originally so the numbers in those situations won't be that high. Mech Guard and the like will be rough I admit, but I still think a forced 20pts on the board is rough.
I like the Stones reply though.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2009/07/01 18:29:29
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.
34 for my IG army and I'm not concerned at all! It isn't like I roll onto the field and my whole army blows up automatically 'giving up' 34 kill points.
I am going with the idea of denying kill points bby shooting threats into little tiny peices instead of reworking my entire play style around having less KP's in my army.
I think IG will be fine in scenario 2 but I do think they will have a very hard time scoring a massacre. I playtested it this weekend against a DH 5x Landraider list. I virtually tabled him ( of course his two HQ hid behind a wreked landraider on the corner of the board so they, and one 5man marine squad were all he had left. ) and still only got a Major Victory.
The armies that will have the hardest time with it are the ones that depend on thier HQ for the majority of thier killing power.
I have made some minor changes and cut down the number of chimeras from 7 to 5 but overall Im confident with the basic mech vet strategies.
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LOL I'll just run where I usually do... the shower.
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Steelmage99 wrote:Can any of you guys help me understand the Battlepoints? Do you get a set number of Battlepoints for a Massacre? Another set number for a Minor Win and so on?
And do you then add any scenario-specific bonus-Battlepoints?
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
Steelmage99 wrote:Can any of you guys help me understand the Battlepoints? Do you get a set number of Battlepoints for a Massacre? Another set number for a Minor Win and so on?
And do you then add any scenario-specific bonus-Battlepoints?
I just ran a test game with my guard list and scored a massacre in scenario #1. It would also have been a massacre in scenario #2, there's no way to call how #3 would have went.
Of course my opponent didn't optimize his list or anything and it seemed like my dice were on FIRE so it might have been a false positive.
John Shaffer wrote:Accompanying retinues that are technically HQ choices (Seer Councils, Tyrant Guard, Dark Eldar Retinues, Space Marine Command Squads, etc.) award 1 KP, as do their transports. So for example, a Farseer and his accompanying Warlocks riding in a Wave Serpent would award 7 KPs (5 +1 +1) if you destroy the lot.
While I wait for the PDF on the website to be updated...
So is a Warlock unit officially a retinue now? (I'm having trouble finding Seer Council in my Eldar Codex.)
What about Imperial Guard Priests or the Black Templars Emperor's Champion (does not use up an HQ slot according to the FAQ)?
Jim Fire Hawks, Pre-Heresy Luna Wolves Orks
Rook End | Fly Lords | real genius DQ:70S+G++M+++B+++I+++Pw40k91++D+++A+++/wWD169R+++T(M)DM++
John Shaffer wrote:Accompanying retinues that are technically HQ choices (Seer Councils, Tyrant Guard, Dark Eldar Retinues, Space Marine Command Squads, etc.) award 1 KP, as do their transports. So for example, a Farseer and his accompanying Warlocks riding in a Wave Serpent would award 7 KPs (5 +1 +1) if you destroy the lot.
While I wait for the PDF on the website to be updated...
So is a Warlock unit officially a retinue now? (I'm having trouble finding Seer Council in my Eldar Codex.)
What about Imperial Guard Priests or the Black Templars Emperor's Champion (does not use up an HQ slot according to the FAQ)?
The Warlock unit is called a "Warlock Bodyguard". They are not a "retinue" per say, they are a separate unit taken as an HQ that do not use up a slot. However, since they are an HQ unit, under the 'Ard Boyz rules in Scenario 2, they would be worth 5 KP's. John's clarification means they will only be worth 1 KP in Scenario 2.
Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.
whitedragon wrote:The Warlock unit is called a "Warlock Bodyguard". They are not a "retinue" per say, they are a separate unit taken as an HQ that do not use up a slot. However, since they are an HQ unit, under the 'Ard Boyz rules in Scenario 2, they would be worth 5 KP's. John's clarification means they will only be worth 1 KP in Scenario 2.
My Codex just says "squad of 3-10 Warlocks", nothing about them being a "bodyguard". It also says, like you say, that they are a separate unit, but the Codex says "This unit and the Farseer are a single HQ choice." So why would they be 1 or 5 in addition to the Farseer?
And when will the scenarios be updated on the website? No offense intended, but a random post on Dakka certainly isn't going to be noticed by all the local stores participating in the event. Our local store has already said that any changes posted won't be in effect until they come from an official channel.
Jim Fire Hawks, Pre-Heresy Luna Wolves Orks
Rook End | Fly Lords | real genius DQ:70S+G++M+++B+++I+++Pw40k91++D+++A+++/wWD169R+++T(M)DM++
I appreciate your concerns about the HQ Kill Points. There are so many options and exceptions to the hard and fast 2 HQs (especially in the older books) that I feel I should amend the Kill Points for Scenario 2 as follows:
Kill Points in this scenario are determined in the
following way:
• Troops - 1 Kill Point
• Dedicated Transports - 1 Kill Point
• Fast Attack/Elites/Heavy Support - 2 Kill Points
• HQs that use up a HQ slot - 5 Kill Points
• Other HQ choices & Retinues - 1 Kill Point
• Demonic Heralds - 3 Kill Points
• Space Wolf Characters - 3 Kill Points
• Units created in battle - 0 Kill Points, such as:
Tau Drones from vehicles
Chaos Spawn from Gift of Chaos
Kugath’s Nurglings
Spore Mines, etc.
Is that clear enough to avoid any confusion or bias? I will post the amended scenarios tomorrow and will have the Trade accounts notified that the newest versions are currently available for download. If in doubt, please contact your local game store hosting the 'Ard Boyz and request they download the most recent scenarios.
Thanks again for the input, and have a great time this weekend!
John Shaffer wrote:
• HQs that use up a HQ slot - 5 Kill Points
That clears it up for Eldar players: no reason to not take a Warlock squad since the squad and Farseer "are a single HQ choice". Toughest 5 KPs to get IMHO.
John Shaffer wrote:
Is that clear enough to avoid any confusion or bias? I will post the amended scenarios tomorrow and will have the Trade accounts notified that the newest versions are currently available for download. If in doubt, please contact your local game store hosting the 'Ard Boyz and request they download the most recent scenarios.
I didn't think there was any bias, but yes, that clears up some small confusion from an otherwise well put together set of scenarios. Thanks and look forward to meeting you a BoLSCon!
-Jim
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 02:01:42
Jim Fire Hawks, Pre-Heresy Luna Wolves Orks
Rook End | Fly Lords | real genius DQ:70S+G++M+++B+++I+++Pw40k91++D+++A+++/wWD169R+++T(M)DM++
I have a small concern regarding the Techmarine from the TFC (if the gun is destroyed) and/or Chronus. Do those fall under the created in battle category?
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Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
I'd say yes. they only become units themselves when something happens to the item their attached to. But that's just my opinion.
::doin a dance about the drones:: That saved me 6 KP's in the second mission
And I agree that that should be added to the main FAQ. Ridiculous that spore mines, gun drones, and newly created spawn are KP's but we make due like we always do
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 06:34:46
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Thank You for keeping ahead of all of these issues. It is really going to reduce a lot of the confusion and potential arguments going into the second scenario. All the scenarios are really interesting and should make for a great tournament experience.
John- You are the freaking man! Way to go with answering the questions and supporting this event!
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Set in your storage bin, pick up vulkan model, place in list.
Thanks, John! Theses well-considered and timely adjustments are really encouraging, and will make the event much more fun.
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I have to thank you for your timely response to all the questions posted in this thread and others around the net! This is the kind of support I have longed to see from Games Workshop for their rules and events. Please keep up the great support!
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