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I am always perplexed when I hear these stories of all the terrible managers in the world. How in the hell do they keep their jobs?

In terms of the raising/ lowering price issue, I think the goal should ALWAYS be to lower your prices in any situation. As I said before I am playing with tiny soldiers, and they are made of plastic and metal. If it is that hard for GW to make it's goods at fair prices, they should just go out of business.

Boxes of Guardians for 5$... I just read that from a previous post. That is wishful thinking, I had a range of 15-20$ in mind for the 10-man plastic boxes. I highly doubt that GW loses more money to "cheap" pricing, than sheer greed due to their management. Seems to be a fairly consistent theme among top-tier business men, alongside mind boggling incompetence and lack of ANY smidge of compassion for anyone. Sure, when they leave the office they can be decent people, but most of the time the are just money grubbing @$%#!#$.... I think this may be a more universal and cultural problem than I am fully aware of.

"I think a bonus is in order, Harumph!"

It's Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap).

One thing not being calculated into the price argument here is how long the figures will last. My first army is still in good shape and it's 20 years old! I would say yes it's an expensive hobby but name me a cheap one.

The one price that gets me is $15.00 US for a can of primer.........Lowe's for my primer!

Would they happen to be mostly metal models???

That could make just a bit of a difference .

Also you should remember that your 20 year old army was bought at a fair price, and we are mainly talking about the current GW pricing. On this same note, rocks last quite a long time too, most likely longer than plastic .

My main point here is the cost of the plastics/pewter and manufacturing (along with any other primary costs) of models in general. The "fake" cost means absolutely nothing to me, these are toys. Furthermore they are toys that YOU put together AND paint, they have no springs or mechanisms, and they usually end up breaking over the course of 5 years. If your models last longer, that is fine, but I would estimate an average of 5 years for most regularly played with plastic models. GW is also known to use particularly inconsistent plastics, so if you are planning on buying used models, you have to do a bit of research as to when that batch of models was made so you won't end up destroying all of the detail on your minis when stripping paint. Stripping paint can severely damage models, and takes quite a lot of time and effort to do properly. If you factor the costs of all of these things in, GW products are probably THE worst buys in the War-gaming market.

It is just a bad deal.

Wrexasaur wrote:Would they happen to be mostly metal models???

That could make just a bit of a difference .

Also you should remember that your 20 year old army was bought at a fair price, and we are mainly talking about the current GW pricing. On this same note, rocks last quite a long time too, most likely longer than plastic .

It's an Undead army. It has a lot of plastic skeleton warriors but today's pricing will be also seem fair in 20 years compared to what that current pricing will be. 20 years ago I paid ALOT in 1980's money for that army. GW stuff was never cheap!

You have to factor in how long something lasts if our talking about value for money.

I consider that for a car or a house or a boat or a etc...

NOT TOYS. Toys break and most hobbies don't actually have any toys involved in them. Golf clubs can last a life-time, paint-ball guns can do so as well, and any hobby using tools usually limits itself to things you can find laying around the house. Perhaps we need to limit this to War-gaming only, it seems a bit odd to be comparing things that have absolutely nothing in common besides "Well, I tend to do both on the weekend".

Sure my minis CAN last a long time, but in order for them to do so, I have to invest care into the army, thus incurring more personal investment. My time is worth money, but I prefer to be paid in GOLDEN PEANUTS.

Your just trolling now.

If you think they are toys and the hobby is to expensive, stop playing.

I guess RC cars and boats and planes aren't considered hobby items either. I mean they aren't real planes or cars so they are also toys......can that paintball gun of your fire a real round? Didn't think so, but you don't consider that a toy right? Why because it has moving parts?

A lot of hobby's involve "toys".....it doesn't make them any less a hobby. I know of a lot of Lionel train collectors who would love to hear their hobby isn't of value because they are "toys".

I am not sure how I am trolling, I just wanted to talk about things that are comparable.

If we are talking about costs, plastic and metal models are some of the simplest hobby items out there.

As I said before, when I buy something like an airsoft/paintball gun, it is most definitely not a toy. I would be some sort of insane badass if I could actually fight with a mini.

As to the RC cars (etc..), sure they are a hobby but they are sure as hell not actual toys. Toys for people that are responsible maybe, but not your average plastic soldier that is for sure. GW does have talented artists and designers on their staff and I am not saying little green soldiers are as good as your average GW product; on the other hand those little green soldiers are available at like 1 cents a piece. All that I am saying is the level on skill for building and maintaining RC planes and helicopters (cars drive on the ground, relatively simple) is drastically higher than what you average WH40k player would possess. Painting and modeling are one thing that can be compared, but a project like the RC Bane-blade is a HUGE endeavor, and if I had a chance to play with it, I would be as careful as possible when doing so.

Pretty good definition of toy = a nonfunctional replica of something else (frequently used as a modifier); "a toy stove"

Here is a small sample of the effort involved in making something like the RC Baneblade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ2styaeGUA

Soooo the RC cars in Toys R Us are toys but the ones from RC Car magazine aren't because of the cost and where I bought it?

An airsoft gun is a TOY. It's not a real gun! It shoots paint....water soluble paint....you know finger paint.

I'm not dis-agreeing with you about my figures being toys but it doesn't make the game any less of a hobby then paint ball. And yes the price of an item be it a toy or a house has to be judged on value for your dollar and the lemgth of time you can use that object for enjoyment is part of it's value.

My 20 year old army was ridiculously expensive in 84'. My sons Lizardman army is expensive to purchase now but it's cost versus value is not! He'll still be playing WAR with it in 20 years. Toy or not, it's an expensive hobby to get started in but it's a hobby that I think you get great value for your dollar considering the longevity of the figures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Webster's definition of a toy:


Main Entry:
1toy Listen to the pronunciation of 1toy
Pronunciation:
\ˈtȯi\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English toye
Date:
15th century

1obsolete a: flirtatious or seductive behavior b: pastime ; also : a sportive or amusing act : antic2 a: something (as a preoccupation) that is paltry or trifling b: a literary or musical trifle or diversion c: trinket, bauble3: something for a child to play with4: something diminutive ; especially : a diminutive animal (as of a small breed or variety)5: something that can be toyed with6Scottish : a headdress of linen or woolen hanging down over the shoulders and formerly worn by old women of the lower classes
— toy·like Listen to the pronunciation of toylike \-ˌlīk\ adjective


Sounds like I don't play with toys, or are you calling me a child? Heheheheheh.

We should all be thankful we are in a position to buy and argue about GW products. I'm sure there are a lot of people who walk by a GW store be it man, woman or child that think it's cool as hell but flat out can't afford to have a hobby.

We're lucky we get to have this dicussion.

So back to arguing about whats a toy! Anyone else want to jump in?

Matter of fact an airsoft/paintball gun is NOT a toy, companies are required to state this on the actual product to the best of my knowledge. You can realistically hurt or severely injure a person with anything that can fire a projectile. Slingshots are weapons FCS.

Sure your army lasts a long time now, but so do most things made of plastic. I think it is a mood point (how do you say this?).

P.S. My son and I play with our Tamiya RC Tiger tanks all the time in the back yard! I love that video!


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Wrexasaur wrote:Matter of fact an airsoft/paintball gun is NOT a toy, companies are required to state this on the actual product to the best of my knowledge.

Sure your army lasts a long time now, but so do most things made of plastic. I think it is a mood point (how do you say this?).

Moot is the word I think your looking for. Anyone can walk into Wal Mart or Target and purchase a paintball gun. My "lovely" 12 year old neighbor is the perfect example of that! The side of my deck is day glo on some summer days!

This is a toy gun at its finest form. Funny thing is this one is actually functional, and could be considered dangerous by Barney and friends.


This is a weapon, albeit non-lethal in nature.


If you disagree, then so be it.

Anyone can walk into Wal Mart or Target and purchase a paintball gun. My "lovely" 12 year old neighbor is the perfect example of that! The side of my deck is day glo on some summer days!

Really? They cannot do so around here. You need t be 18 to buy an airsoft/paintball gun, so if the parent deems fit the child can have one, thus the responsibility would fall solely on the parent.

So for you the complexity and cost of an item make it not a toy? In that case then model rockets are toys because they have no moving parts and are of simple construction. Yet in most states you need to be 21 years old to purchase the fuel......once again any 14 year old can walk into a sporting goods store and buy that Airsoft SAW replica.

Both of those pictures are toys....sorry. Haven't you ever heard the saying:

The difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys......

I will give you this, I won't let my 8 year old play with the Airsoft, I don't let him shoot ours without me there. (We have the MP5 replica and the 45 replica).

Oh yeah you americans think your prices are bad? I'm from canada. A dreadnot from here costs About 69 bucks with one paint!


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Oh yeah you americans think your prices are bad? I'm from canada. A dreadnot from here costs About 69 bucks with one paint!

I will give you this, I won't let my 8 year old play with the Airsoft, I don't let him shoot ours without me there. (We have the MP5 replica and the 45 replica).

This defines a toy for me. Can a child take care of it on their own? You could argue that WH40k is not for kids (which it sort of is) for all sorts of reasons, but in terms of the Hobby itself, you have Hobby-knives, acrylic paints, and all sorts of other relatively dangerous stuff for anyone using it, especially a kid.

I do not have kids, but if I were a parent no projectile weapon would be a toy in my house. A few dead birds around the property would be a testament to this. A paintball gun can feasibly kill someone, whereas an airsoft is not anywhere near as dangerous. A frozen paintbal IS lethal, and that makes a paintball gun specifically, a lethal weapon.

Right... back on topic. I wouldn't mind starting a new thread to discuss this, but here is really not the place.

My main point is that I want the price of my plastic and metal soldiers to realistically reflect the cost of making and distributing them. I could care less about how awesome the model is on table-top or how long my models last. I want to know why a company can mass-produce plastic toys made for YOU to build and paint, yet still charge so very much. I stopped making model tanks and planes, because I would rather just make the real thing... wait, besides that I thought they were overpriced for what they were; PLASTIC.

Does anyone know how to find this information out? I am not interested in hearing informed knowledge, I want numbers on paper telling me why I have to pay so much.

Wrexasaur wrote:

I will give you this, I won't let my 8 year old play with the Airsoft, I don't let him shoot ours without me there. (We have the MP5 replica and the 45 replica).

This defines a toy for me. Can a child take care of it on their own? You could argue that WH40k is not for kids (which it sort of is) for all sorts of reasons, but in terms of the Hobby itself, you have Hobby-knives, acrylic paints, and all sorts of other relatively dangerous stuff for anyone using it, especially a kid.

I do not have kids, but if I were a parent no projectile weapon would be a toy in my house. A few dead birds around the property would be a testament to this. A paintball gun can feasibly kill someone, whereas an airsoft is not anywhere near as dangerous. A frozen paintbal IS lethal, and that makes a paintball gun specifically, a lethal weapon.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying a paintball gun is more lethal. My airgun shoots metal slugs and will go through an empty tin can from 30 feet away without knocking it over. I'd rather get shot with a paintball gun then my airgun!

BB guns were not mentioned.

Airsoft is specifically plastic pellets that do not have the weight to be a lethal force. Use metal pellets in an airsoft tournament and watch how fast you get banned from the field. A lead pellet from a hunting BB rifle is meant to kill things, so of course it is lethal.
Frozen paint is more than enough to kill someone in one hit. This makes it more lethal than a BB gun, at a much more limited range.

Off topic again... sorry.

Airsoft guns can shoot either metal or plastic ammo.

Stock control is a problem for GW. They announced in their annual report a year or two ago that they were going to focus on stock control as a way of getting back into profit. That's why most shops now only stock the basic lines and you have to order so much stuff for delivery.

Blackmoor wrote:I am what you would call pretty price insensitive. I buy just about anything I want, when I want it without batting an eyelash. When they raised the price of Terminators to $50 for 5 plastic models, I did not think it was to bad in spite of the outcry.

But tonight I was stunned at GWs prices for the very first time. I was looking at the Eldar range and I was thinking about buying 3 vibro-cannons to keep the IG players on their toes, and I was wondering what it would cost. An Eldar Heavy Support cost $33. So to purchase 3 of them it comes out to $100!

$100 for 6 models and 3 cannons and are a 150 point unit?

All I could say is Wow!

GW prices make me sad... :(
I have found a few site's that are somewhat cheaper, although most of these seem to have upped their prices in recent months....
giftsforgeeks.co.uk seems to be about the best prices i have found. Although, this is with shipping to the UK.