Religious Quandary

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**Gwar!**

Falconlance wrote:You aught to care. That kind of brainwashing is akin to child abuse. Assuming they were brought up on it. If an adult were to come upon that and accept it well... you cant help some people.

Dude, get out of my head!

That is exactly my view too. If you are an adult and willingly get into it, more fool you, but pressing it on children when they do not know better is wrong.

**Orkeosaurus**

Gwar! wrote:I don't understand the question. Are you asking why I care people believe in Rib Women and Zombie Jews? (not being snarky, serious Question).

If so, I don't. I really don't care. However, I will not just sit back. I'll let people know what I think. If they don't like it, well tough tits we aint in Iran so i can say pretty much what I want.

You don't care, but then you go to great lengths to not only say what you believe in, but to argue why others should believe the same. You've gotten quite a few threads locked before because it. People have expressed dislike for you because of it.

Not meaning to "call you out", or anything it just seems strange to me. Perhaps you're not as amoral as you'd like to think?

::EDIT:: And you say now that you think it's wrong to teach children things you think are harmful lies. Surely that's a form of morality?

**Falconlance**

Gwar! wrote:
Falconlance wrote:You aught to care. That kind of brainwashing is akin to child abuse. Assuming they were brought up on it. If an adult were to come upon that and accept it well... you cant help some people.
Dude, get out of my head!

That is exactly my view too. If you are an adult and willingly get into it, more fool you, but pressing it on children when they do not know better is wrong.

Ah yeah well, were you raised christian too? I got sent to christian school up until my parents couldn't afford. I always felt out of place, and uncomfortable really, during the sermons. After I grew up and learned the meaning of indoctrination i was FURIOUS with my parents. Worst part is, theyre doing it to my little sister now. I saw one of her homework assignments a few months ago. She had to do alittle craft project and make suffering sinner out of construction paper and write a sentence about why he was suffering. Her science book? "Do you know why you have five fingers on each hand! Because God knew thats how many you needed! Did you know he knows exactly how many hairs you have on your head? Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Isn't God great?"

Made me sick.

**Gwar!**

Hardly gonna win many friends I know, and TBH I don't care what you believe. But I am not gonna just say "oh I am indifferent", I have a right to state my opinion, and I exercise it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:::EDIT:: And you say now that you think it's wrong to teach children things you think are harmful lies. Surely that's a form of morality?

Not morality. If those children are taught lies, it damages the species. It is a natural evolutionary response to try and protect ones species. Not Morality.

**Orkeosaurus**

Falconlance wrote:I saw one of her homework assignments a few months ago. She had to do alittle craft project and make suffering sinner out of construction paper and write a sentence about why he was suffering. Her science book? "Do you know why you have five fingers on each hand! Because God knew thats how many you needed! Did you know he knows exactly how many hairs you have on your head? Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

Holy gak, that's bad.

I know some very intelligent Christians though. People who have considered theology to an extent that's impressive, while also knowing a respectable amount about the world around them.

Ultimately, I do think their beliefs are incorrect (as I am an atheist myself), but I can respect a great deal of their position.

**dogma**

Gwar! wrote:If so, I don't. I really don't care. However, I will not just sit back. I'll let people know what I think. If they don't like it, well tough tits we aint in Iran so i can say pretty much what I want.

Apparently you don't understand the word 'care', because what you're describing here is caring.

Gwar! wrote:Hardly gonna win many friends I know, and TBH I don't care what you believe. But I am not gonna just say "oh I am indifferent", I have a right to state my opinion, and I exercise it.

Again, this is an example of caring. Its also moralistic thinking.

Gwar! wrote:
Not morality. If those children are taught lies, it damages the species. It is a natural evolutionary response to try and protect ones species. Not Morality.

Uh, yeah, that is morality. Pretty much by definition.

You're essentially criticizing people for romanticizing their lives through belief while doing the exact same thing via atheism/amoralism.

You're a hypocrite, and entirely unreflective. The very worst kind of self-righteous fool.

**greenskin lynn**

i give myself equal odds of some sort of after-life, or just going poof, i really don't care much/worry about it either way.

**Typeline**

Falconlance wrote: Why do you choose to continue living?

I think this question is fair game to anyone who doesn't have a lot of faith or a belief in some afterlife.

I'd like to hear everyone's answer, if you don't claim a faith or have a belief in an afterlife.

Even with my belief though, it tortures me daily. Why continue to live? It isn't exactly the most important thing. If the afterlife doesn't exist though, I'd be making a dire mistake and if it does exist will it be better than what I have now? I think it's this reason alone I don't own a firearm of any sort.

**generalgrog**

Falconlance wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Falconlance wrote:You aught to care. That kind of brainwashing is akin to child abuse. Assuming they were brought up on it. If an adult were to come upon that and accept it well... you cant help some people.
Dude, get out of my head!

That is exactly my view too. If you are an adult and willingly get into it, more fool you, but pressing it on children when they do not know better is wrong.

Ah yeah well, were you raised christian too? I got sent to christian school up until my parents couldn't afford. I always felt out of place, and uncomfortable really, during the sermons. After I grew up and learned the meaning of indoctrination i was FURIOUS with my parents. Worst part is, theyre doing it to my little sister now. I saw one of her homework assignments a few months ago. She had to do alittle craft project and make suffering sinner out of construction paper and write a sentence about why he was suffering. Her science book? "Do you know why you have five fingers on each hand! Because God knew thats how many you needed! Did you know he knows exactly how many hairs you have on your head? Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Isn't God great?"

Made me sick.

Falcon... of course the obvious hypocracy of what you and Gwar are spouting is that you believe indoctrinating(as you put it) youth into Christian beliefs is somehow immoral, yet your perfectly fine with being indoctrinated in the "Holy" secular point of view.

You both come across as Nazi Bigots.

GG

**Mad Rabbit**

generalgrog wrote:
Falconlance wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Falconlance wrote:You aught to care. That kind of brainwashing is akin to child abuse. Assuming they were brought up on it. If an adult were to come upon that and accept it well... you cant help some people.
Dude, get out of my head!

That is exactly my view too. If you are an adult and willingly get into it, more fool you, but pressing it on children when they do not know better is wrong.

Ah yeah well, were you raised christian too? I got sent to christian school up until my parents couldn't afford. I always felt out of place, and uncomfortable really, during the sermons. After I grew up and learned the meaning of indoctrination i was FURIOUS with my parents. Worst part is, theyre doing it to my little sister now. I saw one of her homework assignments a few months ago. She had to do alittle craft project and make suffering sinner out of construction paper and write a sentence about why he was suffering. Her science book? "Do you know why you have five fingers on each hand! Because God knew thats how many you needed! Did you know he knows exactly how many hairs you have on your head? Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Isn't God great?"

Made me sick.

Falcon... of course the obvious hypocracy of what you and Gwar are spouting is that you believe indoctrinating(as you put it) youth into Christian beliefs is somehow immoral, yet your perfectly fine with being indoctrinated in the "Holy" secular point of view.

You both come across as Nazi Bigots.

GG

Where to begin? Did you read what they wrote? Indoctrinating children so obviously is something that people should be worried about, especially when it produces things like the Creationism museum with the children and dinosaurs playing together. Either way, throwing around terms like Nazi Bigots is a sure way to "turn the other cheek," isn't it?

If you want to believe that something you can't see, touch, taste, hear or smell exists and controls everything, that's just fine. If you want to tell your kids the same thing, again, no worries. Once you put it into an institutional setting like a school you cross a line. Religion has its place for some people, but you should NOT teach religion side by side with hard facts. Even Christians (if I ever meet a real one) will say that faith is an important deal to them. If so, teach things that require a lot of faith (God) separately from things that require little to none (i.e. Gravity or Evolution).

My personal views are obvious from that statement. I'm an atheist. I believe in the Buddha's teachings and I find a lot of wisdom in Lao Tzu's writings (early Taoism). I'm not going to go as far as Gwar has, but if you fail to recognize religion as a destructive force you are fooling yourself.

When I say I've never met a real Christian, it's because I haven't. No Christians that I've met refuse to harm another. None of them truly devote themselves to the poor, none of them withhold judgment from others (i.e. Nazi Bigot comment). In short, a lot of them are good people, certainly. Some are terrible people. But none really follow the basic teachings of the religion.

**Cheese Elemental**

I think you're wrong there. What you have is Catholics, my friend.

I can't stand the Christians/Catholics who insist on indoctrinating children and brainwashing people. Humans have choices, dammit! I chose to become Christian because of the wonderful community and values it offered me. I may not be one of the devout (I don't go to church often, and I'm a bit lenient with a few things), but come on, you have to take the Bible with a pinch of salt.

I recall someone (dogma, perhaps) asked the question in a religious argument 'Have you ever seen an atheist soup kitchen?'

That stuck in my head. No, I haven't. The Catholic church in particular has a lot of people with power who abuse it. There are more good Christians than you might care to think.

Religion is not that destructive a force, especially in the modern era. Was Hitler religious? What about Robert Mugabe or Mao Tse Tung?

If you're referring to the Crusades, that was a sick bid for power made by power-hungry cardinals and the Pope, and was manipulation of the faithful masses. Like any good thing in the world, somebody will abuse it.

**J.Black**

Cheese Elemental wrote:
I recall someone (dogma, perhaps) asked the question in a religious argument 'Have you ever seen an atheist soup kitchen?'

That stuck in my head. No, I haven't. The Catholic church in particular has a lot of people with power who abuse it. There are more good Christians than you might care to think.

If you're ever in Manchester pm me. I go to work at a soup kitchen twice a month to give the homeless some free food. The sponsor? University of Manchester Biology department. To my knowledge, not a single person of the religious persuasion works there. (Although they may have been stunned into silence by the presence of so many nerds)

**Cheese Elemental**

I didn't say there were none. I personally haven't seen one. I'm probably taking it out of context to be honest.

But anyway, from what I see, religions in the modern day are more tolerant of each other and are adapting to fit in with the modern world. Sadly, there are still those Mary Whitehouse types who are convinced that we're all a bunch of hedonistic Satanists.

**dogma**

Mad Rabbit wrote:
Where to begin? Did you read what they wrote? Indoctrinating children so obviously is something that people should be worried about, especially when it produces things like the Creationism museum with the children and dinosaurs playing together.

First off, all children are indoctrinate in some sense. Its a natural part of socialization. The point you want to make is that what someone is being indoctrinated with is dangerous, or harmful. That's not particularly easy given its innate hostility. Most people end up falling into the 'kill them because they're different' trap, which is generally the reason the 'indoctrination' criticism was levied to begin with.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
If you want to believe that something you can't see, touch, taste, hear or smell exists and controls everything, that's just fine. If you want to tell your kids the same thing, again, no worries. Once you put it into an institutional setting like a school you cross a line. Religion has its place for some people, but you should NOT teach religion side by side with hard facts. Even Christians (if I ever meet a real one) will say that faith is an important deal to them. If so, teach things that require a lot of faith (God) separately from things that require little to none (i.e. Gravity or Evolution).

As much as I detest the schools in question, they are private establishments and can teach whatever they want.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
My personal views are obvious from that statement. I'm an atheist. I believe in the Buddha's teachings and I find a lot of wisdom in Lao Tzu's writings (early Taoism). I'm not going to go as far as Gwar has, but if you fail to recognize religion as a destructive force you are fooling yourself.

Yes, religion is a destructive force. Its undertaken by humans, and all human enterprise is inherently destructive. The issue is whether or not we can accept the destruction being caused.

Also, I hope you aren't making the mistake of assuming that Atheism is tacit to Secularism. Just because you're an Atheist it does not follow that you have no religious beliefs. You could be a Buddhist, for example.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
When I say I've never met a real Christian, it's because I haven't. No Christians that I've met refuse to harm another. None of them truly devote themselves to the poor, none of them withhold judgment from others (i.e. Nazi Bigot comment). In short, a lot of them are good people, certainly. Some are terrible people. But none really follow the basic teachings of the religion.

I'm guessing you aren't a theological scholar, because the majority of what you claim as basic teachings of Christianity are nothing of the sort. Without going into too much detail there is a whole lot more complexity to it than 'do no harm', or 'take care of the poor'.

**Mad Rabbit**

I will concede that Catholics are big on running schools and such to indoctrinate the young (i.e. Jesuits). Anyway, they tend to do so more than other Christian denominations.

Religion is not a destructive force? So Muslim extremists aren't destructive? Evangelicals shooting abortion doctors isn't destructive.

I will admit that I have never seen an atheist soup kitchen. What I have seen are completely secular charities that perform the same functions as religious ones, so I don't see the point.

The examples you give don't work in your favor.

1. Mugabe is listed on Wikipedia as a Roman Catholic.
2. Here is a quote from Hitler's Wikipedia page:
" In his speeches and publications Hitler spoke of his interpretation of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." "

I don't even need to go back as far as the Crusades to find examples like these.

**J.Black**

Cheese Elemental wrote:Sadly, there are still those Mary Whitehouse types who are convinced that we're all a bunch of hedonistic Satanists.

Probably my fault, i keep forwarding them Gwar!'s posts and links to 4chan.

**Typeline**

Cheese Elemental wrote:I didn't say there were none. I personally haven't seen one. I'm probably taking it out of context to be honest.

But anyway, from what I see, religions in the modern day are more tolerant of each other and are adapting to fit in with the modern world. Sadly, there are still those Mary Whitehouse types who are convinced that we're all a bunch of hedonistic Satanists.

Modern societies are just repurposing many things in their religions to fit modern society. Stripping away many firmly held indoctrinations, warping the words originally written to fit. Not that it's a bad thing. Some old bearded man wrote some words, said god wrote them and had people eating out of his hand, now some older gent is rewriting the same words to get people to eat out of his hand again. It's the same deal. But if you think religions are becoming more tolerant of one another, you should turn the news on sometime you might be in for a rather rude awakening.

**Cheese Elemental**

You are winrar. Period.

You know, I think I'm far too stubborn sometimes, especially when it comes to my beliefs. I get angry very easily too. The stubbornness is, I think, an Australian trait. Building a nation in this crazy hellhole will do that to you.

**Mad Rabbit**

dogma wrote:First off, all children are indoctrinate in some sense. Its a natural part of socialization. The point you want to make is that what someone is being indoctrinated with is dangerous, or harmful. That's not particularly easy given its innate hostility. Most people end up falling into the 'kill them because they're different' trap, which is generally the reason the 'indoctrination' criticism was levied to begin with.

My point is that this indoctrination is harmful. Teaching children to ignore things like science seems rather harmful to me even without the religious aspect.

As much as I detest the schools in question, they are private establishments and can teach whatever they want.

Yes, they can. But should they be able to? That is my point. Not "is it legal?" but "is it right?"

Yes, religion is a destructive force. Its undertaken by humans, and all human enterprise is inherently destructive. The issue is whether or not we can accept the destruction being caused.

More harm than good is caused by it was my point here.

Also, I hope you aren't making the mistake of assuming that Atheism is tacit to Secularism. Just because you're an Atheist it does not follow that you have no religious beliefs. You could be a Buddhist, for example.

Not at all. I also hope that you don't think of Buddhism as a religion. Tibetan Buddhism venerates the Buddha as a god, but other sects do not, and the Dalai Lama calls Buddhism a "science of the mind" rather than a religion. He also says that if reliable science were to disprove any of his Buddhist beliefs that he would be willing to discard them.

That is not a destructive force, in my opinion. But then again, I don't see it as a religion.

I'm guessing you aren't a theological scholar, because the majority of what you claim as basic teachings of Christianity are nothing of the sort. Without going into too much detail there is a whole lot more complexity to it than 'do no harm', or 'take care of the poor'.

How'd you guess that I wasn't a theologian? I don't see how I'm misunderstanding "Love thy neighbor as thyself" "Turn the other cheek" or "Thou shalt not kill." Especially that last one. Either way I'm just going off of what I've read out of the Bible and heard in 15 or so years worth of attending a Presbyterian church.

**Falconlance**

generalgrog wrote:
Falconlance wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Falconlance wrote:You aught to care. That kind of brainwashing is akin to child abuse. Assuming they were brought up on it. If an adult were to come upon that and accept it well... you cant help some people.
Dude, get out of my head!

That is exactly my view too. If you are an adult and willingly get into it, more fool you, but pressing it on children when they do not know better is wrong.

Ah yeah well, were you raised christian too? I got sent to christian school up until my parents couldn't afford. I always felt out of place, and uncomfortable really, during the sermons. After I grew up and learned the meaning of indoctrination i was FURIOUS with my parents. Worst part is, theyre doing it to my little sister now. I saw one of her homework assignments a few months ago. She had to do alittle craft project and make suffering sinner out of construction paper and write a sentence about why he was suffering. Her science book? "Do you know why you have five fingers on each hand! Because God knew thats how many you needed! Did you know he knows exactly how many hairs you have on your head? Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Isn't God great?"

Made me sick.

Falcon... of course the obvious hypocracy of what you and Gwar are spouting is that you believe indoctrinating(as you put it) youth into Christian beliefs is somehow immoral, yet your perfectly fine with being indoctrinated in the "Holy" secular point of view.

You both come across as Nazi Bigots.

GG

I wasnt indoctrinated into atheism, my friend; I have been bombarded by criticism from family and friends for denouncing god and christianity. Here on the internet there appears to be quite a few of us but let me tell you something, in my real life, I am one of three atheists I know personally. I am surrounded by Jesus everywhere I go, during the last election I was disheartened by the overwhelming support proposition 8 had in my area. For every 1 NO on 8 signs there were 35 YES on 8's. Rick Warren and his MEGACHURCH are a ten minute drive from me, and his influence is sickeningly evident. A combined 64 million dollars of support from the three major christian churches, which is lobbying, and they still have their tax exempt status.

Tell me again whos a bigot.

**Orkeosaurus**

Mad Rabbit wrote:Yes, they can. But should they be able to? That is my point. Not "is it legal?" but "is it right?"

What is right for an individual in regards to their own actions and what is right for a coercive state in regards to the actions of others are often two very different things.

**lord_sutekh**

generalgrog wrote:You both come across as Nazi Bigots.

That would be a misrepresentation, as the Third Reich was a staunchly Christian political structure.

**Cheese Elemental**

It certainly didn't stick with that stance for long.

**lord_sutekh**

All the way through, actually.

**Cheese Elemental**

But as I recall, many Christians were thrown in the concentration camps along with the Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals.

**Orkeosaurus**

The Nazis weren't particularly christian or atheist.

They're not that good of an example for either side, really.

**Falconlance**

No, I think throwing the nazi part in there was just an attempt to sting.

Took a lot of my self control not to fire back. Im not a very forgiving person.

**sebster**

Cheese Elemental wrote:I didn't say there were none. I personally haven't seen one. I'm probably taking it out of context to be honest.

Yeah, I made that point originally. It isn't meant to be completely literal (I asked it and I know it isn't completely true - my Grandfather grew to high status in the Anglican society through his good deeds, but never believed in God for a second). I asked it because people were talking purely about the harm caused in the name of various religions, and I was just pointing out that what religion does is inspire people - what action they choose to take is up to them. On the other hand atheism by itself doesn't spur people into action*. As a result, sure, you get abortion bombings, but you also get countless charities.

Meanwhile, it's a shame this thread has been highjacked. The question of finding meaning in life is good one. The issue of 'religion is bad and I know better because I'm rational and believe in sciense' is bad, and been on this board a lot lately.

*Of course, what really spurs people into action is ideology. If you start looking at ideologies with atheist underpinnings the situation is markedly worse than those with religious underpinnings. But communism skews the comparison quite a bit.

**djphranq**

rubiksnoob wrote:Well, here goes:

I was raised Catholic in a very religious family. My dad especially is very serious about religion. I went to mass every Sunday, said prayers before meals and bed, all in all I was a good little Christian. But around the time of Confirmation, this is where a person is officially recognized as a member of the Catholic Church, I started to really think about things. I am a very inquisitive person and I started to question my faith. I read a lot and did lots of research and the more I learned the more skeptical I got about the whole concept of God and an afterlife. I told my parents I was an atheist but my Dad made me go through with confirmation anyway.

I call myself an atheist but what I really am is not really sure. Don't get me wrong, I 100%, absolutely, do not believe in god. What I'm struggling with is whether or not there is an afterlife. I see religion as a way to try and explain things we don't understand. One of these things is what happens when we die? I really cannot think of anything other than that we cease to exist. A quote by Epicurus really explains what I believe- "Death, the most horrible of all evils, is nothing to us; for when we are alive it doesn't exist for us, and when it is present we no longer exist."

Of late though I have been thinking and I have realized that I don't want to not exist! I see that people cling to religion as a sort of comfort knowing that they will live for all eternity in the afterlife. But I just can't believe that. I want to, but I just can't. I have read about some schools of thought that argue that we just pass into another sphere of consciousness or that we are reincarnated, and I have to say that these make more sense than ending up in either heaven or hell after being judged by some all powerful divine being, but I still can't shake the feeling that this is just a comfort and ignoring the cold hard truth.

I recognize that it is human nature to want to have an afterlife, as shown by almost every religion in the history of humanity having one, and I want to believe in an afterlife, but I JUST CAN'T.

rant over.
What are your thoughts on this, but please, keep it civil. That means no blatant insulting of other peoples' beliefs and please don't post the cosmic jewish zombie poster, as that tends to get threads closed pretty fast.

I used to freak out, in the past, every once in a while, about 'not existing' anymore; not so much the dying but the idea of the switch to stimuli being all of a sudden turned to "off." I don't exactly know how it dissipated. It could be the anti-depressants and the mood stabilizers. It could be that I've found other things such as a 9-5, debt, and loneliness to take up the spot of 'fear of death'. It could be my connection to my Catholicism (love/hate). Whatever it is I don't think of it as much anymore... but I feel for you.

**sebster**

Orkeosaurus wrote:The Nazis weren't particularly christian or atheist.

They're not that good of an example for either side, really.

There were a lot of religious beliefs going on inside the nazis. Like everything else to do with the Nazis, it gets crazier and crazier the more you look into it. But religion was a sideshow, rationalised to fit in with the things the nazis really cared about, like conquering Russia and victimising other ethnic groups.