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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 19:40:26
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If GW was a gaming company, and not a miniatures company that made some rules, this wouldn't be an issue. Privateer Press, while having a massive FAQ/Errata, has figured out that to have a good game, you need to provide a good framework of rules.
Personally, I think it's great that Ard Boyz adopted an FAQ. I don't always agree with it, but it's a lot better than the alternative. Now, I would prefer to see GW do this, but we all know it's not going to happen anytime soon.
I think it's poor form to switch rulings (deff rolla) between rounds of the tourney, but I can understand why they did it.
I can just see the Dev Team now, throwing up their arms about all the cheesy power-gamers who want to know if they can embark or disembark from a Valkyrie without grav-chutes or a really tall hill.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0016/01/10 19:41:51
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Fixture of Dakka
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I think that if the finals were held anywhere else we would not be using the INAT FAQ. I can think of one person on the council that has reached the finals. The FAQ is okay but learning that rules are being written now for IG just sounds wrong.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 19:46:10
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Strimen wrote:Timmah wrote:The difference is Judges do Law, Yakface and go make rulings on a freaking game.
I am saying that 7 people chosen by a company, with no community input, is not a good basis for rules that determine a ton of grey areas. If you think it is, thats fine, but I for one, don't.
Agreed, especially since thats not even enough people to each cover the number of armies in the game. Someone is being left out or not getting the same amount of attention.
Are you joking? Most of the serious GW gamers I know, whether hardcore competitive tournament guys, or total fluff/modeling geeks, have multiple armies. Most of the guys I know who’ve been in the hobby a few years have several different armies. I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that all the armies are indeed represented.
Here are data I know to be true:
a) The original point of the Adepticon FAQ was to make a smooth play experience, to enhance the quality of the event.
b) A lot of the development for the INAT FAQ was originally done independently here on Dakka, as the Dakka FAQ, before the Adepticon Council decided that it was too awesome to miss out on, recruited Yakface onto the council and adopted the FAQ officially. It was renamed the INAT FAQ- the Independent National FAQ, specifically so that it would maintain the original goal of being aimed at any tournament who wanted it, not just as Adepticon’s local in-house thing.
c) Adepticon is far too big, and the organizers bust their humps way too hard, and invest way too much money and time in it, to waste all that effort by biasing the event toward anyone.
What’s the upside? Seriously. Polonius' rule for conspiracies applies. Who benefits, and would it realistically be worth the effort, and possible consequences?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 19:52:35
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 19:55:41
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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[DCM]
Sentient OverBear
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You haven't figured out who benefits?
The players benefit. You know what 100+ pages of rulings will be before the event even starts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 19:55:57
DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++
Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k. Rule #1 - BBAP
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:03:19
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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I love how all the mods come out of the woodwork to defend this FAQ.
Couple of things.
1. I'm confused, why am I making an Ad hominem attack/argument when all I did was point out that you were making a personal attack towards me?
2. Yes, I would like more than 7 people, and I would like to know the selection process ect. If I am going to follow your rules, I want to know how you have come to them.
3. If GW is going to use this FAQ, I want it official and a link to it on their site. What about the people who don't come onto dakka to find out the rules? I see nothing on GW's site that says, "we are using the adepticon FAQ"
If GW wants to adopt it as their official FAQ, that is fine, I would love a concise set of rules like this. But I see nothing that says they have done this. They still have all of their FAQs/errata on their site and that is it.
I don't think a private set of rulings should be used unless the GW is going to take responsibility for them being correct. Meaning that they officially support and maintain them and replace/compliment the FAQ's on their site with it.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:07:58
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Focused Fire Warrior
Atlanta
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Timmah wrote:3. If GW is going to use this FAQ, I want it official and a link to it on their site. What about the people who don't come onto dakka to find out the rules? I see nothing on GW's site that says, "we are using the adepticon FAQ"
Community & Events, Ard Boyz Finals, page 1. It's there. Thus the start of this post which I now regret.
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Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. -- Sun-tzu
The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on. -- Ulysses S. Grant
Armies and records (w/l/d) (1v1 only)
Orks: ~8500pts -- 2009: 52/2/7 & 17/2/6 in RTTs -- Casual size 85% Painted
Empire: 7000pts -- 2009:19/6/11 & 3/1/5 in RTTs -- Casual size 50% Painted
Marines: 2000pts -- 2009: 4/2/0 -- 20% Painted
Kroot Mercenaries - ~1500pts -- 2009: 0/1/1
Vampire Counts: 1850pts -- 2009: 9/3/4 -- Paint? We're dead...
Skaven (Work in Progress) - ~4000pts -- 2012: 1/1/1 -- Unpainted
Tau (Work in Progress) - 1500pts -- 2012: 5/1/1 -- 20% Painted |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:15:14
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot
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Mannahnin wrote:Strimen wrote:Timmah wrote:The difference is Judges do Law, Yakface and go make rulings on a freaking game.
I am saying that 7 people chosen by a company, with no community input, is not a good basis for rules that determine a ton of grey areas. If you think it is, thats fine, but I for one, don't.
Agreed, especially since thats not even enough people to each cover the number of armies in the game. Someone is being left out or not getting the same amount of attention.
Are you joking? Most of the serious GW gamers I know, whether hardcore competitive tournament guys, or total fluff/modeling geeks, have multiple armies. Most of the guys I know who’ve been in the hobby a few years have several different armies. I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that all the armies are indeed represented.
Here are data I know to be true:
a) The original point of the Adepticon FAQ was to make a smooth play experience, to enhance the quality of the event.
b) A lot of the development for the INAT FAQ was originally done independently here on Dakka, as the Dakka FAQ, before the Adepticon Council decided that it was too awesome to miss out on, recruited Yakface onto the council and adopted the FAQ officially. It was renamed the INAT FAQ- the Independent National FAQ, specifically so that it would maintain the original goal of being aimed at any tournament who wanted it, not just as Adepticon’s local in-house thing.
c) Adepticon is far too big, and the organizers bust their humps way too hard, and invest way too much money and time in it, to waste all that effort by biasing the event toward anyone.
What’s the upside? Seriously. Polonius' rule for conspiracies applies. Who benefits, and would it realistically be worth the effort, and possible consequences?
You know what you're right, even as a non-serious GW gamer (because their approach to rules is crap) I own multiple armies so I can see they probably do too, since it seems to be their life as you say. And of course as one knows when you put all your time and effort into something you tend to have some strong convictions towards said thing. Heck its even been scientifically prooven that humans have strong convictions to a product they just bought 10 seconds ago (to immediately justify it to themselves) that it is the best product around. Err... wait that would mean those people have strong reasons to bias things towards their own purchases... Oops, whether or not they consciously recognize it, they will do it.
On a side note you also proved my point. If of the seven guys, six of them owned four different armies each and one guy had a single army. Guess which army will be getting a little more love from someone?
The answer is you still can't tell! Since the majority of people at least own some space marines (according to GW sales) your "Pros" most likely each own an army of them and therefor as a whole the council will most likely be fairer in their rules towards that army since each is more likely to have the same experience with the force. Where as other obscure armies will tend to swing to either end of the spectrum.
Basically my issue isn't with the FAQ its with GW for not play testing and doing this work themselves and releaseing a sound product. I encourage INAT to continue their hard work at making a house ruled game set to be used for their own enjoyment, but I find it slowed when GW uses a user made FAQ in the third round of an offical tourny and then doesn't at the very least make that FAQ the now offical GW standard and just end the whole issue of their incompetence.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/08/31 20:20:57
DQ:80+S+++G+MB++I+Pw40k96#++D++A++/sWD-R++++T(T)DM+
Note: D+ can take over 12 hours of driving in Canada. It's no small task here.
GENERATION 5: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:17:42
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Malecus wrote:Timmah wrote:3. If GW is going to use this FAQ, I want it official and a link to it on their site. What about the people who don't come onto dakka to find out the rules? I see nothing on GW's site that says, "we are using the adepticon FAQ"
Community & Events, Ard Boyz Finals, page 1. It's there. Thus the start of this post which I now regret. Sorry, I mean for all events. Not just one single tournament. Especially since it wasn't used for the first 2 stages of it. If they adopt it for everything, it means they are taking responsibility for what is in it. Using it for a single tournament means all that happens if they don't like it is; "Oops, our mistake. We will do it differently next year." (If you don't believe this, check out what happened at last years.) @Strimen Exactly the way I feel.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/08/31 20:21:21
My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:27:13
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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40kenthus
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Q: How does one get on the Adepticon Council?
A: Volunteer to staff an event. There is an unending need for more volunteers to judge 40K, WFB, and all sorts of other events. People can assist in the time leading up to the convention or at Adepticon its self.
Q: How does one get on the FAQ committee?
A: Become the Head Judge of one of the 40K events.
Q: How can one become a Head Judge?
A: Demonstrate an ability to organize a major tournament, then request the position from the Adepticon Chairman.
Head judging positions for 2010 are already filled. If you're serious about wanting to be part of the process - come on staff for one of the three 40K tournaments then work towards one of the head positions in 2011.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:29:49
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
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Hmm. Or you could just not play?
Seriously, you expected GW to be "consistent"?
I like the FAQ's. If you don't like a ruling, change your list, maybe?
There's enough power gaming that I'm sure you can find another rule to take advantage of in the list.
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No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:36:59
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Timmah wrote:I love how all the mods come out of the woodwork to defend this FAQ.
Couple of things.
1. I'm confused, why am I making an Ad hominem attack/argument when all I did was point out that you were making a personal attack towards me?
2. Yes, I would like more than 7 people, and I would like to know the selection process ect. If I am going to follow your rules, I want to know how you have come to them.
3. If GW is going to use this FAQ, I want it official and a link to it on their site. What about the people who don't come onto dakka to find out the rules? I see nothing on GW's site that says, "we are using the adepticon FAQ"
If GW wants to adopt it as their official FAQ, that is fine, I would love a concise set of rules like this. But I see nothing that says they have done this. They still have all of their FAQs/errata on their site and that is it.
I don't think a private set of rulings should be used unless the GW is going to take responsibility for them being correct. Meaning that they officially support and maintain them and replace/compliment the FAQ's on their site with it.
I am not pro FAQ.
I am against bitching.
Please come up with a workable alternative given the constraints of :1. no money; 2. no time; and 3. a national event.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:47:22
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Uriels_Flame wrote:Hmm. Or you could just not play? Seriously, you expected GW to be "consistent"? I like the FAQ's. If you don't like a ruling, change your list, maybe? There's enough power gaming that I'm sure you can find another rule to take advantage of in the list. No, I do not expect them to be consistant. Thats why the community needs to let them know that we want them to be consistant. I personally am not going to lie down and just take whatever crap they send my way. Its not that I don't like the rulings in the FAQ. Its 2 things. The way they are determined The fact that GW is just adopting them for 1 event. @RantheCid Unfortunately I can not volunteer to staff an event because I do not live in the area. Since you are picking people solely from this list, would you not agree that some of these rules are almost house rules for the area? Basically the people with massive amounts of time and are in your area are the only ones allowed to make the rules? Seems like only a certain demographic of people are going to be in this group doesn't it? Meaning bias in the FAQ. @Frazzled Workable alternative? I am just one person, but I am sure there are many many reasonable alternatives. Like a better diversity of people on the council that decides on the rulings. However all are pretty moot until GW decides to take some responsibility. Either way, 7 people is not enough to make decisions for such a huge community over such controversial rules issues. I would say you would want a mix of community leaders and well know members from both the Americas (USA, canada ect) and Europe. As this big diversity is going to have different opinions on how things work.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 20:49:55
My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:56:17
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Timmah wrote:Either way, 7 people is not enough to make decisions for such a huge community over such controversial rules issues.
So when can Yakface expect his Sizeable Cheque from you to hire more people?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 20:56:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 20:56:18
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Huge Bone Giant
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Does GW tell anyone how they came to their rules creation?
I think I missed that.
And most codecii list significantly less than 7 authors.
shrug
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:02:51
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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GW is the official source, they don't need to tell us why they chose to make certain rules. I don't see why I owe someone money so they can make their UNOFFICIAL FAQ less bias. I would happily volunteer my time to help write a more impartial FAQ, as I am sure many other 40k players would. Especially if it was going to be used by every/most RTT's. The thing is, if you have people from all over the US help with this, then they all adopt it as the official FAQ and it becomes a better document. As is, it feels like a couple gamers from the chicago area are telling us how they think we should play our game. Letting more people in on the decision making, makes it more accepted by the masses. Heres an idea. Ask for volunteers and invite a number of community managers from different websites. Librarium online, tau online, dakka dakka, YTTH, warseer ect ect. Then take accept a number of volunteers from around the US and collaberate together on a single set of rules. Votes can be taken after discussion on each item. Now you have a FAQ that can be posted on all the major websites and that a lot of the community can feel they helped create. Most people are more likely to accept a new rule if they have a say in it or at least were allowed to let their opinions known.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 21:06:03
My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:04:39
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Timmah-
You are misinformed on so many levels. The 7 members of the council do not all reside in the Chicagoland area. There are head judges who live 3 states away. I was on the original faq committee, but I am not on it any longer. The members stretch from Wisconsin, Illinois, Ohio, Virginia, California, Florida since the inception of the FAQ. Some people are added and some people leave. When I was on it, a rule was discussed at length, either over e-mail or on conference call. Most rules had majority and minority opinions and we presented our arguments over several days so as not to miss anything.
Your idea that this is a regional set of house rules is false and has no basis in fact, only conjecture. It is true the head judges are the FAQ makers and then a few other people who have been with Adepticon from the beginning. No head judge is allowed to play in their event and the 3 head organizers rarely play in any event as they are to busy running the whole Con. How can they benifit from a ruling when they don't play???
Timmah I don't know if you are going to the Ard Boyz finals or not, but I am. I also know virtually everyone who will be responsible for any ruling at the finals. How do you think it would look when I get my way on a rules dispute that the judge has to rule on? There would be an uproar claiming I got a favorable ruling because I know them and you don't. And you know what, I would get my way in the ruling and you would be screwed. That's the way it goes. But now you have that taken away from me and the playing field is now level. You can bitch about it all you want, but noone will take what you're saying seriously and do you know why? Not because we have run the biggest 40k weekend in the world for over 7 years with virtually no hitches, not because 95% of gamers love the INAT FAQ, not because you are being shouted down 10-1 on this board, no sir it's because no one cares what you think. This is the way it is and will be, period. I don't even think they were going to tell you guys ahead of time about the INAT FAQ until I said it would cause a big stink unless everyone knew about it first. Next time I'll tell them to keep it quiet. Automatically Appended Next Post: Timmah wrote:The thing is, if you have people from all over the US help with this, then they all adopt it as the official FAQ and it becomes a better document.
As is, it feels like a couple gamers from the chicago area are telling us how they think we should play our game.
The council already represents the US. You have no idea what you are talking about. The initla INAT FAQ came from Dakka itself. Can you get any bigger than that? The more you type about this the more it becomes apparent you know nothing. You just want to be an important person and say you can write the FAQ. Talk about a bias piece of Bull. Keep your hands off of it. Don't show up and you'll make everyone happy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 21:07:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:08:51
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Timmah wrote:GW is the official source, they don't need to tell us why they chose to make certain rules.
I don't see why I owe someone money so they can make their UNOFFICIAL FAQ less bias.
I would happily volunteer my time to help write a more impartial FAQ, as I am sure many other 40k players would. Especially if it was going to be used by every/most RTT's.
I don't believe it.
You mayhaps would help. But in my experience ask people to actually put substantial effort into something and they will run like cats from a timberwolf.
How many manhours are you going to put into it?
How are you going to decide issues?
Are you going to get more than seven people?
Why would I think these volunteers are any more qualified than the ones who did Adepticon?
 3/4 of the YMDC posts are five people or so.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:10:27
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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40kenthus
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Timmah wrote:
@RantheCid
Unfortunately I can not volunteer to staff an event because I do not live in the area. Since you are picking people solely from this list, would you not agree that some of these rules are almost house rules for the area?
Basically the people with massive amounts of time and are in your area are the only ones allowed to make the rules? Seems like only a certain demographic of people are going to be in this group doesn't it? Meaning bias in the FAQ.
There is no requirement to be in the area to work on the Council. Instead, most of the work leading up to Adepticon is done by phone and email. In the area I work with ( LotR, WAB, BFG, EPIC, etc....) I've had judges come in from Florida Ohio and Arizona. The only common denominator is a willingness to work hard and desire to see the convention succeed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:11:33
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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DarthDiggler wrote:Timmah-
You can bitch about it all you want, but noone will take what you're saying seriously and do you know why? Not because we have run the biggest 40k weekend in the world for over 7 years with virtually no hitches, not because 95% of gamers love the INAT FAQ, not because you are being shouted down 10-1 on this board, no sir it's because no one cares what you think. This is the way it is and will be, period. I don't even think they were going to tell you guys ahead of time about the INAT FAQ until I said it would cause a big stink unless everyone knew about it first. Next time I'll tell them to keep it quiet.
Oh look, more conjecture and personal attacks. "Someone does not feel our FAQ is amazing, get him!"
DarthDiggler wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Timmah wrote:The thing is, if you have people from all over the US help with this, then they all adopt it as the official FAQ and it becomes a better document.
As is, it feels like a couple gamers from the chicago area are telling us how they think we should play our game.
The council already represents the US. You have no idea what you are talking about. The initla INAT FAQ came from Dakka itself. Can you get any bigger than that? The more you type about this the more it becomes apparent you know nothing. You just want to be an important person and say you can write the FAQ. Talk about a bias piece of Bull. Keep your hands off of it. Don't show up and you'll make everyone happy.
So how exactly do 7 people represent people all across the US? 7 Tournament venues? Sure, but it is still one type of individual. The outspoken community manager type. This makes it not a good demographic of people.
Would you make a survey that was only sent to the 7 richest people in america and assume its results to be true for everyone?
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:12:48
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Frazzled wrote:  3/4 of the YMDC posts are five people or so.
You are welcome  In fact were it not for me being stuck in this Third World Country (Ireland) I'd be at Adeptacon Judging it up So how exactly do 7 people represent people all across the US?
How does 1 Man Represent the US? Obama seems to be doing fine. Timmah, as much as this pains me to say it, you remind me, well of me, back when I was a total +++=][=+++ INQUISITORIAL CENSURE +++=][=+++
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/08/31 21:13:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:15:07
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Modquisition on:
Gentlemen, a reminder, politeness is required. Please make all posts in accordance with Rule #1, including any directed at the poster Timmah. If you disagree, then disagree on the merits, not via personal attack. Further disparaging remarks will be reviewed to see if disciplinary actions are needed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Non Mod mode to be clear)
In an ideal world you are correct. However,
We’re dealing with finite resources here. That finite resource is manhours. How are you going to get more people, of skilled caliber, to come up with a committed document superior to this FAQ, for this purpose? Volunteers are not that easy to come by, skilled volunteers even less so.
As the old saying goes in volunteering community-the bird with the idea just volunteered. Timmah, this sounds like a job opportunity. Go for it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 21:20:31
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:28:17
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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Well, I think it's possible that this is just a mental sticking point for Timmah. There comes a point where you have to realize that somebody is a crank or is indistinguishable from one, and you have to move on.
@ Timmah: I think we'd all be more receptive to your insinations of bias if there was any evidence of it. Everybody is going to disagree over one ruling or another, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a ruling that didn't conform to reasonable ruling or another. Show us any evidence, and we'll take this more seriously. Until then... you're just a guy with a chip on his shoulder.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:31:05
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Timmah wrote:DarthDiggler wrote:
Oh look, more conjecture and personal attacks. "Someone does not feel our FAQ is amazing, get him!"
My little work was done for 4th edition. For 5th edition everything was redone for that edition. Is this another part that you are misinformed on?
In my experience a democracy by unruly mob will produce nothing of value. We do not make national defense decisions by special election, we have a Secretary of Defense. We do not make farming decisions by referendum, we have a Secretary of Agriculture. And we do not open up, by vote of online cummunity members only, whether a Chaos dread pivots before fire frenzy or after.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 21:36:49
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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I do not have a chip on my shoulder.
If you read my earlier posts, I said I would be happy if GW chose to officially support this FAQ. (using it for one tournament is not that) However until they do that it is just a bunch of house rulings. It will not be accept by the masses until either one of two things happen.
GW officially supports it.
A larger amount of the community has a say in it. (more than just dakka dakka)
If GW supported it for every one of their tournaments then it would be recognized as the official FAQ.
If a huge amount of the community had some (any) involvement in it, then they would accept it more readily for RTT events and such and it would become official.
As is, it is just a FAQ written by 7 people and used for 1 (now 2) tournaments. And is not used by the masses and is therefore not all that useful.
On the concept of bias, everyone has them. Me claiming that 7 individuals who wrote something have a bias based on who they are, is like me claiming their is water in the ocean.
I can't physically prove it, but everyone knows its true.
Now 7 people together might help to remove some of that, but it won't completely. Especially when all 7 people are basically the same demographic.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 22:09:21
Subject: Re:40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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I feel that a bigger issue is that the FAQ was not in effect for the whole tournament. I can see some of the Adepticon rulings I don't like, but I am willing to play by their rules.
A valid point that Timmah made at the beginning that that I feel was lost was that he spent money on a product that will not function the way it did in the last round. I can understand his frustrations, because if I were to drop prize money on product for a tournament and it wasn't going to work I would be pissed also.
In closing, I just hope that everybody reads the FAQ, and follows the rules. I will have to print out the FAQ and bring it just in case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 22:13:45
Subject: Re:40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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rednekgunner wrote:
A valid point that Timmah made at the beginning that that I feel was lost was that he spent money on a product that will not function the way it did in the last round. I can understand his frustrations, because if I were to drop prize money on product for a tournament and it wasn't going to work I would be pissed also.
This I can understand and agree with. If you start with a set of rules, you should finish with the same set of rules.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 22:27:00
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Dakka Veteran
Lexington, KY
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Timmah wrote:1. I'm confused, why am I making an Ad hominem attack/argument when all I did was point out that you were making a personal attack towards me?
The ad hominem attacks on your part come in because you're not interested in discussing the merits of the FAQ on its own, instead you're solely arguing based on the people who created it.
When discussing, say, the merits of a particular document, it's a logical fallacy to attack the authors instead of the document itself. The particular fallacy is called an ad hominem attack.
It's like, for example, we said, "Try this delicious cheese!" and you responded, "But the milk used to make the cheese was from communist cows!" while the rest of us are deciding that whether or not we prefer Colby Jack to Cheddar, that having cheese available while grilling burgers is better than no cheese at all.
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Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 22:27:39
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Timmah wrote:If GW supported it for every one of their tournaments then it would be recognized as the official FAQ.
As is, it is just a FAQ written by 7 people and used for 1 (now 2) tournaments. And is not used by the masses and is therefore not all that useful.
GW shouldn't support a third-party FAQ. They should be producing their own. Now, for some unusual circumstances, I can forgive them (for example, do Tau SMS, which ignore LOS, have to check for Night-fighting, Veil of Tears, GK Aegis Armor, etc.). But, big rules issues (do deff rollas cause d6 S10 hits on Armored vehicles, can you disembark from a valkyrie except by grav-chute or a hill, etc.), they have no excuse. I can't even forgive them for not having coherent FAQs for older edition codexes ( NFW vs EW, the point cost for SW rhinos, etc).
My experience is that most RTTs are willing to either accept the Adepticon FAQ wholesale, or with a handful of additional rulings and/or changes. And, that most RTTs are organized by people that don't peruse YMDC, so they're familiar with some of the big rule issues, but not the minor ones.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 22:49:17
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Dakka Veteran
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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Timmah wrote:GW officially supports it.
A larger amount of the community has a say in it. (more than just dakka dakka)
You may have failed to notice that some of the current GW FAQs are based upon the Adepticon FAQ and even mention thanks to Yakface and crew directly.
I agree, GW SHOULD be doing their own FAQs, but GW has decided FAQs are not important to their business model. I would like to thank Yakface and the others for providing a reasonable replacement until such time as GW finally does.
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"This thread is made of so much unrefined awesome spice, the Harkonnens are coming." -Frazzled
"After all, the Space Marines need something to fight against, and it can't always be Chaos!" -Phil Kelly |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/08/31 23:04:06
Subject: 40k Ard Boyz Final -- Using Adepticon FAQ
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Moonreaper wrote:What exactly is the deal with GW and that Inat faq?
I dont know if I understand correctly, but does Games Workshop approve and enforce that particular FAQ as official rulings set for the Ard Boyz tournament ?
If thats the case, Ill print it and bring it in our local store to have it as a "officially approved" Faq by GW
As I understand it, the INAT guys have put in a ton of work on creating a comprehensive Tournament FAQ.
GW is happy to let them do so, rather than to compete with FREE labor, and is using it at Ard Boyz, but doesn't otherwise care about FAQs, leaving them to the players to resolve.
So they're officially unofficial. Or unofficially official.
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