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Elric of Grans wrote:Best solution? Scrap the Codex system. The rules for the game and every army are then written, tested and released at the same time. This makes everything easier, no one gets left out and everyone is as balanced as Games Workshop are capable of. The fact is, however, that the Codex system makes them more money, so they are more likely to continue releasing more MEQ books than solve the problems in the game.

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Yup, this thread is a biggie...Yes, the current system is ok. The divergent marine lists have enough 'different' units to make one marine book too clumsy to make effective. There is a lot to be said for the codexes as they have (mostly) differing qualities, though personaly the DA book is out of touch and the WD BA is broken...but enough of that, on the whole it's good.

What I think is missing is this, and that is to say that it is relatively easy to put variant army lists at the back of codexes. This is especially true of lists where the the units don't change stats, but move around in the unit organisation chart. We used to get the lists and I don't know why it changed, but it would be nice to see at the back of codex eldar an Iyanden chart that mentions wraithguard as troops and the other minor type swaps required for example.

Why are marines so popular? That's easy, often they are a players first army (2nd ed Space Wolves!), and they are often the 2nd force bought if non marines were first up.

For me Marines = Profit = More nice toys = More stuff for non marines (with patience)

Another thought...Have you seen how the plastic marines have come on in quality? If they can do that with (relatively) simple minis, the what awaits when these new skills are applied to filthy xenos? (I can't wait to see!)

Agree with Capt Jack - GW infrastructure is building, SM are definately a core line but I think appetite to do more with Xenos is def there, its about balance b/w supporting marines up to the point they can be left for awhile then getting onto Xenos

Does anyone really disagree Spez Puppies need a revamp?

Would be great to see a couple of solid months spent on each Xenos race so a few were really upgraded each year then those in turn could be left for a whole cycle with players having great options for infantry, armour, aviation etc etc

My final thought - GW does this well, they make a profit and we all love playing their games, others have failed - I would rather some flaws in their runs of some lines than some ideologist took over and ran the business into liquidation.

lol marine topics are like abortions

i have to say i have no problem with the current system. in fact i like it better this way. you hear talk of rolling all the codex's togethor and selling them as one book. do you know what a $125 marine codex would do for anyone?

space marines get people to play the game, and i bet there are very few 40k players that have never owned or bought a space marine army or even a box.

space marines are bad ass and, as fire warrior showed us, they get sold in every market. i know zombies and munchkin sell and their fun however they are for a niche market. so most people don't pick them up then others don't hear about it that would like it and there's no community for it.

i like the fact that they don't update codex's at the same time (thank god how would that be for learning curve?) i like that i can go back to my templar codex and use the armoury.

and honestly why shouldn't they sell more marines? it makes the company money and more support for more armys. in fact we're getting a new army soon. not to mention how many groups like BOLS make codex's for armys and units that don't exist (lords of battle, warhammer 30k, etc etc)

i say marines are marines, if your to big of a fanboy to realize that there's a community built around an obscure game that very few people have ever heard of and you can play on a regular basis from a company trying to make money. yes there's marines, and there's a lot of them. but how often do you really fight every marine codex? and isn't it better then playing against the same marines every time, especially since their the intro army.

Wash-away: If you take your post to its logical conclusion it would be in GW's interest to only release marines.

Mattlov wrote:The over-saturation of Marines comes from Marines being about 60% of 40K sales. They outsell the entire WHFB LINE. This means that GW will do anything they can to make more money. That is their goal, and the key is to never think it isn't. If you think GW is in it for the game or for the hobby in general, you are WRONG. They just want your money.

That being said, they COULD start pimping other armies by giving them the ability to easily kill Marines. 40K Game Marines are no where near as good as Fluff Marines, but yet they are still superior to most armies in a general way. Most other armies can do SOMETHING better than Marines can, but no army can do anything as well across the board.

I would rather see a Generic Marine codex, and then a supplement codex with some of the variants. Want to make more variant codexes? Fine. Just make upgrade sprues for variants, instead of making entirely new mini lines.

What I am eager to see is what they do to the Tyranid Codex, which is quite likely the next release. If they can't fight Marines to a 50-50 split, it will be a travesty for the game.

To me, I think this is a chicken or the egg question. GW has always treated SM's as their favored son. They've always received the greatest amount of coverage, the greatest amount of marketing, and the greatest amount of fluff. Now, is this merely because SM's have produced the greatest sales numbers? Or, possibly, is it a self perpetuating cycle where the higher sales are the result of a greater amount of attention paid to MS's by GW, and that justifying further increased attention?

Hi all.
IMO the real problem is the disjoint between ,GW corperate acountants 'short term path of least resistance profiteering', and the GW studio staffs vision of 'long term growth of a hobby by inspiring creativity.'

If it was left up to GW corperate accountants we WOULD be playing Space Marine Crusade.Red marines fighting Blue marines.

AFAIK, GW manages to give 'fairly even support' to all the WHFB armies.(Some armies are over-underpowered , but all get visited before the new version of the rules comes out.)
WHFB army books often have themed lists in the back of the book.(Last time I looked in 6th ed.)

40k background is nearly always written from an Imperial stand point.
And of the Imperial forces super human warriors in the best armour carrying the best weapons some how are the most attractive to GW new target demographic.(11 to 16 yo?)

In RT SM forces were rather hard to win with, bieing quite limited in number and comparativley fragile.
Over the years GW has made the SM the no brainer chioce for new players.

Cheapest army to collect .
Easiest army to paint.
Most forgiving to play.
Always features in the starter sets.

The prevelance of SMs in 40k is one of the oldest self forfilling prophecies that GW have made.
We support the SMs more, we sell more SMs, we support the SMs more than any other army because they sell well.

As reguard to the codex release shedule used by GW.They belive it optimises the returns on minature releases.And use this to directly influence sales.

GW used to release cool rules and senarios because the wanted to maximise OUR fun.We responded by retaining our interest -continuing to buy GW stuff.

Now GW PLC ONLY releases rules updates with associated hobby product.

GW PLC only sell 'GW HOBBY' products.They stopped promoting the hobby a few years ago.IMO.

For gameplay reasons , all armies should be as far as possible equaly supported ,and the function of rules should NOT be tied to asthetic release shedules.
(Why not update codexes when they need revising, not wait 10 years+ for new minatures releases.)

And the basis of comparative effectivness should be made against ' standard troops'(IG,) not 'elite troops'(SM.)IMO.

If the rules were written in an inclusive rather than exclusive way, ALL armies could have a wide variety of playstyles covered by one codex.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Saldiven: I don't think GW has always had the SMs as their favorite. I think it was 3rd edition and the increase in plastics that really pushed everybody into SMs at every turn. Combined with the unified SM/Imperial PoV in every piece of background (even the xenos codexes can't escape them) and launch of Black Library really sealed it. So no, I don't believe SMs were always the best sellers.

Looking at sales data from the first day of 40K to today would resolve it.

Look at the outcry with Chaos Marines. Limiting the army and removing fluff is roundly despised by most players.

Marine players have the most fluff and loyalists have routinely been expanded based on that fluff, and fat blokes love of white scars. Other armies could have as many variants, and IG do when it comes to models, just not whole separate lists.

However Nids, Necrons, Tau, and Eldar don't have the model diversity or background to support. Any variants are just force org limits and a few special rules. These armies need more work to reach the point of marines, who have 4 upgrade sprues for their troops alone.

GW is limited on how many new models it can make at once, so it bunches together stuff into a release around a new rule book. Naturally, they have to be picky about which armies they support this way because the release has to support all the artists and equipment. So the management chooses stuff they believe will sell.

They have come a long way since the blandness of 3rd, and we should encourage that trend. Armies recently have been very different, and SW are shaping up to play very differently from UM.

What vexes people the most really is the limited number of releases. No one would care if there were 20 marine 'dexes if they also had 5 Eldar, 3 necron and a big tau empire to choose from as well.

To do something like that would require GW to change the release process completely.

If GW went with a simultaneous release for all the variants, they would need to bring back the global campaigns to get the hype needed for good sales. They could add new units every campaign like a video game expansion, but again they would only be able to add a handful of new models or units per event.

So you would have more army choice, but individual armies wouldn't be updated as often, and players would be more likely to have several generations of mini's in their current force.

Is that worth it?

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Wash-away: If you take your post to its logical conclusion it would be in GW's interest to only release marines.

of course...

wash-away wrote:space marines get people to play the game, and i bet there are very few 40k players that have never owned or bought a space marine army or even a box.

and armys to fight marines. but you also have to look at fantasy. if a player wants to play 40k it would be a lot easier transition if their army was there in the 41st millenium.

it is in their best interest to keep marines supported. i mean its like taking the food section out of wallmart if they stoped supporting them.

yes they do get a lot of attention but i don't see the problem. i haven't had to be jerked around and revamp my entire play style and mini line since the eldar codex came out. and honestly i hope they don't revamp the templar codex for a long long time.

any army can beat any army no matter what anyone says. however having to rebuy everything and drop hundreds of dollars every time you get a new dex isn't worth it.

Every player that isnt space marines should try their damnest to beat the tar out of space marine players and show that they suck. After experiencing much suckage, it should be easy to convince them into playing something other than space marines. Devoted space marine player will still play them, the easily discouraged ones move on to a new army.