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So this issue crops out fairly often and became a recurring issue in space wolves thread, the Gav responds to Chaos sucking thread, and any time space marines are talked about. So in the interest of educating people about the discussion and trying to expose people to as many viewpoints as possible, I'm gonna approach this topic. I think I need to set some ground rules, because every time this gets discussed heads explode and wars begin.
So please: Respond by stating what you think of the issue and why. Then state what you think is the best solution and why. Please concentrate on what you think and providing support for why you think that way and not whether or not someone on the internet is wrong.

GW releases more space marines as a release than any other type of supplement. The fundamental issue is that some think there is too much emphasis on Marines and that has ruined the hobby. Space marines are so commonplace that they're no longer seen as super human in game and are considered the norm. Others think that this is wonderful for the game, since it allows people to play specialized space marines that are different from other space marines. What do you think of the issue? What do you think is the best approach for GW to approach the issue?

Classic solutions:
1. Sub codecies such as legions, DA, BA, SW are good and the correct approach.
2. All 3+ save armies should be consolidated into one book.
3. More emphasis on xenos and nonsuperhumans is preferable.
4. A sort of compromise>a generic space marines book and one book with all the variants.



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I think this issue, like Abortion, has no easy answers. I also feel that one side dismisses what the other side has to say fairly regularly because there are different fundamental ideas about armies. To a xenos player, all 3+ armies are the same. Eldar kill space wolves the same way they kill crimson fists or whatever variant chapter there is. So of course, there is the feeling of why are there different subcodecies. To a space wolves or nightlords player though, his army is distinctly unique and different from the other space marine armies, so he doesn't feel the same way.

Then it becomes an issue of fairness and perspective. To an Eldar player, it's not fair. It's not like craftworld eldar are legal or what not. So why allow space marines all the variants? To a nightlords player though, his army was distinct and now no longer exists. After investing so much time and money in an army, why is it suddenly okay to remove his army from existence?

The best solution in my opinion would be to do something in the middle. GW complains that they can't fit everything into one book, and even if they did that would be bad for sales. So the easiest fair solution is to allow a generic book that allows you to do whatever chapter you want, and then make a separate book of variants. I would expect each variant to be designed to be significantly different from the other variants while maintaining balance. Simple force org swaps or name swaps would be deemed unacceptable. The keys are different, distinct, fair, and yet fun. I would allow this for every single codex released: Chaos, chaos variants, eldar, eldar variants (like a harlequins list where everything is distinct and different), etc.
I think this solution answers many of the problems.
Keeping them different, distinct, and yet fair would give each variant a compelling reason to be played while at the same time keep one variant from being preferred over others. Classicly, either the generic codex or the variant codecies were too strong, making one or the other obsolete. By keeping them distinctlty different, there would be no reason for players to only play one codex over another (Blood angels are just marines but better...but if they're distinctly different, the comparison would be like comparing oranges to apples)
It also solves the wargear issue, no more which cyclone is which. Or stormshields being directly compared.
It also solves the share book problem, which required players to carry several sets of rules because one codex referred to another.

The over-saturation of Marines comes from Marines being about 60% of 40K sales. They outsell the entire WHFB LINE. This means that GW will do anything they can to make more money. That is their goal, and the key is to never think it isn't. If you think GW is in it for the game or for the hobby in general, you are WRONG. They just want your money.

That being said, they COULD start pimping other armies by giving them the ability to easily kill Marines. 40K Game Marines are no where near as good as Fluff Marines, but yet they are still superior to most armies in a general way. Most other armies can do SOMETHING better than Marines can, but no army can do anything as well across the board.

I would rather see a Generic Marine codex, and then a supplement codex with some of the variants. Want to make more variant codexes? Fine. Just make upgrade sprues for variants, instead of making entirely new mini lines.

What I am eager to see is what they do to the Tyranid Codex, which is quite likely the next release. If they can't fight Marines to a 50-50 split, it will be a travesty for the game.

I think it depends entirely upon how each book works.

For example, I would call Space Wolves, having read the new book a bit, more MEQ than Marines. This is because they don'tplay like your standard Marines, so could be considered a seperate force altogether.

The mistake in the past has been the defining rules/units haven't been all that defining. Right now, the only difference between Dark Angels and Vanilla Marines, are the Deathwing and Ravenwing. Even as a Dark Angels player, I don't think thats really enough to justify an entirely seperate book.

And yet having said that, I think it would be a sad site to see these dropped to a single book with just the characters offering definition, as the various Chapters have quite cool backgrounds which need exploring, and the single volume approach doesn't really satisfy this need.

Look at the previous Chaos Codex. Sure, it had lots and lots of different lists and FoC arrangements, but Night Lords were just Sneaky Spikey Marines, Word Bearers were Spikey Marines with Added Daemons. These guys are survivors of the Horus Heresy, and as a force deserve better treatment. However, not being quite as fleshed out as the Loyalist Chapters, perhaps a single book could be shared ala Angels Of Death in 2nd Edition?

For marines I have always been an advocate of multiple books however I feel there should be less, and for that matter less codecies in total to prevent armies stagnating (ala Dark eldar).

As an example, for loyalists I feel there should be a vanilla book (similar to what we currently have), a minor divergents book with some unique units (basically angels of death with some iron hands and white scars), and finally the really divergent marines (wolves, templars etc.)
Next, they could fold all 3 types of inquisition into one book, then 1 IG book, that rounds off the imperium.

For chaos you could do similar things, with a chaos marines codex for non god affiliated chaos marines (iron warriors, night lords word bearers etc), and a chaos marine 'gods' book, with the 4 gods armies (death guard etc) and black legion.
Finally you get the daemons book (if you must, i'm personally against it)

For all other armies you give them codexes about 1/3 thicker than the current marine codex, (scary thick) which has the current army list and the diverdent equivalents, (so eldar and craftworld, orks and ork tribes,).


As for the wargear issue, I think the solution is to reach back to 2nd edition and include a wargear list in the rulebook, it would not have to have everything in it, just the commonalities such as TH/SS, LC, force weapons, boltguns, you get the idea.

Personally, I feel that it's up to us as a player base to decide what gets made and supported. As a previous poster mentioned, Marines make up a giant chunk of GW sales. Can we therefore be surprised that they get constant support and attention? If more players would branch out and adopt other armies and codexes, this issue would begin to resolve itself. GW is a business, and sales are the top concern for them. It would be silly of me to preach all the marine players out of the door, because they're just as important as any other kind of player. My basic suggestion, is that rather than start a 2nd MEQ army, be sure that you have at least one non-MEQ one. If every one had at least one non MEQ force they had purchased, things would be distributed more equally.

In terms of army books, I think that joint codexi would be brilliant. I love the idea of unlocking options. Here's a few top of my head ideas:
Codex: Chaos. In this book are both the renegade CSM (4th ed codex) and chaos daemons.
Codex: Legion. In this book are Chaos Legions and Instructions on how to make your own.
Codex: Imperialis. In this book are the 3 Inquisition branches, supported by Sisters, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Arbites
Codex: Enemies of the Imperium. In this book is Genestealer Cult and LatD. They are separate lists.
Codex: Angels of Death. Dark and Blood.


There are plenty of flaws with my idea, and I'm no game developer, but this is the direction I'd really like to the the game heading.

Edit: fixed a few more obvious spelling errors.

Iboshi2 wrote:Personally, I feel that it's up to us as a player base to decide what gets made and supported. As a previous poster mentioned, Marines make up a giant chunk of GW sales.

But is the reason for that simply because they are constantly shoving them down our throats?

If you are just getting in the game as a teenager, this is what you see:

Black Reach (Marines)
BIG Space Marine Codex
Space Wolves Codex
New Products that AREN'T Marines: Just regular humans. Not really that cool in a far-future game.

The other armies are just drab by comparison. The only other army that seems to be big are Orks, which are also in Black Reach. Depending on the age of stock at your store, you might see some Chaos stuff, like alternate Chaos Marines. Look in the codex, and don't seem to find much. What about combining them with these Chaos Daemons? Not allowed, OK.

So you buy Black Reach.

After a few games played, you go back to look through the other Codices. Necrons, just don't seem that good. You see references to the Tyranids, but the store is out of the Codex, and you can't seem to order it. The Witchhunters and Daemonhunters are just too expensive for you to start playing. Eldar seems alright, but you aren't sure they are your style. The Imperial Guard are just humans. You play one of those in Real Life, why would you pay THAT MUCH to play them in a game? Some older players tell you about Dark Eldar, and then launch into a diatribe of forgotten units and Marine favoritism.

Space Marines and Orks seem the only option. Your buddy you play Black Reach with ACTS like an Ork most of the time, so he really gravitated to them. You get Marines. Even without your buddy liking the Orks, the Marines seem to have the best options, and you don't need a TON of them to have a good force.

That is why Marines sell. GW has made the other options look bad in comparison.

Mattlov wrote:

Iboshi2 wrote:Personally, I feel that it's up to us as a player base to decide what gets made and supported. As a previous poster mentioned, Marines make up a giant chunk of GW sales.

But is the reason for that simply because they are constantly shoving them down our throats?

If you are just getting in the game as a teenager, this is what you see:

Black Reach (Marines)
BIG Space Marine Codex
Space Wolves Codex
New Products that AREN'T Marines: Just regular humans. Not really that cool in a far-future game.

The other armies are just drab by comparison. The only other army that seems to be big are Orks, which are also in Black Reach. Depending on the age of stock at your store, you might see some Chaos stuff, like alternate Chaos Marines. Look in the codex, and don't seem to find much. What about combining them with these Chaos Daemons? Not allowed, OK.

So you buy Black Reach.

After a few games played, you go back to look through the other Codices. Necrons, just don't seem that good. You see references to the Tyranids, but the store is out of the Codex, and you can't seem to order it. The Witchhunters and Daemonhunters are just too expensive for you to start playing. Eldar seems alright, but you aren't sure they are your style. The Imperial Guard are just humans. You play one of those in Real Life, why would you pay THAT MUCH to play them in a game? Some older players tell you about Dark Eldar, and then launch into a diatribe of forgotten units and Marine favoritism.

Space Marines and Orks seem the only option. Your buddy you play Black Reach with ACTS like an Ork most of the time, so he really gravitated to them. You get Marines. Even without your buddy liking the Orks, the Marines seem to have the best options, and you don't need a TON of them to have a good force.

That is why Marines sell. GW has made the other options look bad in comparison.

I have seen that problem pop up in a few places I've lived. Though in the one I play at now eldar(store employee loves), IG(because of the new codex), SM, and Orks are the only largely supported armies here. Most of my chaos and tyranids were bought off friends and ebay etc.


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And I am slowly hating SM and Orks..

WHat about you players that think there should only be one space marine codex? Let's hear your perspective.

And HBMC, since you talked quite a bit about Gav's codex being bland, I'd like to hear your perspective on a solution.

I am gonna take a stab here and just hope I'm on topic.

I like Marine armies. I think that they offer a great intro army option into the game. I think they offer a great benchmark or standard in how they operate (not really referring to quality in any form), with other armies offering sufficient deviation from this basic army form to give a variety of options. This makes things fun for me, since i love to play weird and different builds. You can do this with marines, or you can do it with other armies.

Unfortunately, the forces of economic reality skew this game. Marines sell, so we see a lot of marine opponents, and then a lot of marine support. General wisdom in the business world, amongst other places, considers this to be a pretty standard strategy; rewarding success. It is an unusual leader or organization that will deviate from the safety of current success by going out on a limb and supporting another line, even thought the potential margin may be higher than the now-developed current success stories.

How to change GW's love affair with Marines? Only two ways it could change, from what I see. Either a change in leadership to someone willing to go out on a limb and capable of pulling it off, or do it from our end by a sea change in spending habits from Marines to Not Marines.

Marines are the face of 40k. There needs to be a consistent, appealing, distinctive, yet still familiar image to associate with the product. Marines supply this. Personally, I would love to see more love for Xenos, and I think there's been a great success with the Orks as of late. However, GW needs to keep making money to survive.

So xenos players, just remember that those Marines are paying for your alien filth to be developed

Best solution? Scrap the Codex system. The rules for the game and every army are then written, tested and released at the same time. This makes everything easier, no one gets left out and everyone is as balanced as Games Workshop are capable of. The fact is, however, that the Codex system makes them more money, so they are more likely to continue releasing more MEQ books than solve the problems in the game.

Elric of Grans wrote:Best solution? Scrap the Codex system. The rules for the game and every army are then written, tested and released at the same time. This makes everything easier, no one gets left out and everyone is as balanced as Games Workshop are capable of. The fact is, however, that the Codex system makes them more money, so they are more likely to continue releasing more MEQ books than solve the problems in the game.

Aw how sweet a cynical sister

Elric of Grans wrote:Best solution? Scrap the Codex system. The rules for the game and every army are then written, tested and released at the same time. This makes everything easier, no one gets left out and everyone is as balanced as Games Workshop are capable of. The fact is, however, that the Codex system makes them more money, so they are more likely to continue releasing more MEQ books than solve the problems in the game.

Or reduce the number of releases and start bundling them into larger books and allow
for both good guy and bad guy lists in each book.

Warhammer 40,000: There is Only War = Vanilla Marines, Vanilla Chaos
Warhammer 40,000: Strength in Numbers = Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks
Warhammer 40,000: Fear the Xenos = Eldar, Tau, Necron

then you can cycle back to create variant lists

Warhammer 40,000: Inquisition = Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Daemons
Warhammer 40,000: Secrets of the Warp = Dark Angels, Thousand Sons, Ulthuwe
Warhammer 40,000: Corruption = Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Lost and the Damned
Warhammer 40,000: Warriors without Peer = Space Wolves, Goffs, Biel Tan

Probably wouldn't be feasible, but I can dream, can't I?

malfred wrote:

Elric of Grans wrote:Best solution? Scrap the Codex system. The rules for the game and every army are then written, tested and released at the same time. This makes everything easier, no one gets left out and everyone is as balanced as Games Workshop are capable of. The fact is, however, that the Codex system makes them more money, so they are more likely to continue releasing more MEQ books than solve the problems in the game.

Or reduce the number of releases and start bundling them into larger books and allow
for both good guy and bad guy lists in each book.

Warhammer 40,000: There is Only War = Vanilla Marines, Vanilla Chaos
Warhammer 40,000: Strength in Numbers = Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks
Warhammer 40,000: Fear the Xenos = Eldar, Tau, Necron

then you can cycle back to create variant lists

Warhammer 40,000: Inquisition = Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Daemons
Warhammer 40,000: Secrets of the Warp = Dark Angels, Thousand Sons, Ulthuwe
Warhammer 40,000: Corruption = Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Lost and the Damned
Warhammer 40,000: Warriors without Peer = Space Wolves, Goffs, Biel Tan

Probably wouldn't be feasible, but I can dream, can't I?

Hey at least you optimistic and not a cynical sister

Well the rolling release is taken from my main game, Warmachine.

GW relies on a constant stream of splash releases that works very well for them.

Hmmm...

Although I would love more attention to other races such as Necrons and Dark Eldar, I simply understand that Space Marines will be GW's flagship product. I'm fine with this, as I will eventually own a Space Marine army someday.

Space Marines actually have 3 main jobs for GW, which are:

1. Getting new people into the hobby.
2. Random kids who won't ever play the game buying them, therefore making cash.
3. Giving GW a constant icon or image which GW hobbyists all-over can recognize.

Cryonicleech wrote:Hmmm...

Although I would love more attention to other races such as Necrons and Dark Eldar, I simply understand that Space Marines will be GW's flagship product. I'm fine with this, as I will eventually own a Space Marine army someday.

Space Marines actually have 3 main jobs for GW, which are:

1. Getting new people into the hobby.
2. Random kids who won't ever play the game buying them, therefore making cash.
3. Giving GW a constant icon or image which GW hobbyists all-over can recognize.

and with all the stagnation and sm brow beating in your face has also caused several people I know to quite. Also if a tyranid, eldar whatever player keeps having to see yea space marine they can grow bored with the game. It's like blizzard and wow.. it will last for awhile but eventually will leave a bad taste in the mouth. Right now wow is loosing fans and what's worse they'll loose more with the release of their own products. If you have too many eggs in one basket eventually you will regret it. Part of the joy of this game is seeing other cool armies and types not just "winning" sm or ork armies.. BORING! hell there's alot of people who follow winning armies which hhmm for some reason is the new codex armies.. oh wait SM have many of those gee suprise!? I mean in the fiction humans are fighting a loosing battle so why is it that they are some of the strongest armies? I'm in the game business(video games) and the way to keep crowds to to keep giving fresh new stuff. Could you imagine if the only game and movies we privy to were from the 20's cause they sold at the time? my god come you can make all the excuses you want for GW but in the end SM will bury this game unless some of the others get some sprucing

I don't really agree. Yeah, there is a lot of Space Marine support. It's true. Though I fail to see this as such a terrible thing, provided the following remain true:
1. The basic Marine Codex has sufficient variety to support a multitude of playstyles. (also included in this point is the need for multiple tournament builds)
2. The armies of unorthodox chapters (BA, DA, SW) are instantly recognizable - in both their appearance and playstyle.

With those criteria met, I don't think it's such an awful thing to have so many Marine armies. Sure, we can all whine about how many marines there are, and every one of us really just wishes that OUR army was the favoured child of GW, but it's just jealousy. The multitude of marines and marine variants does no harm, and earns GW money that they then go on to spend on other things (okay, and Marines).

I instantly know that a BA army is going to be different than a SMurf army. The Space Wolf army looks to be unique and characterful in it's own right. Dark angels have exciting playstyles and robes. There's sufficient difference that I don't think of SW as 'just marines'. It's an army in it's own right.

That said, everyone has opinions on whether or not these armies should have been developed/revamped instead of, say, DE and necrons. That's definitely debatable, and I do wish that GW would go back to Dark Eldar especially, as their codex is very old. Even though we might wish those other armies had been produced, GW is still producing some cool stuff for our enjoyment. The game isn't lessened by these additions, even though they're 'more marines'. They really have become armies in their own right, and I respect them as such.

The game is called Warhammer 40k not SM squabbles..


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And has it occurred to those who use sales as a reason for the tragedy is that thats all the new stuff is sm orrientated and many stores( espeacially smaller) ones only carry new items?

I think it really comes to the question of how divergent is the Codex from the standard?

For instance, the most different are chaos space marines and marines. Both are MEQ but no one sudgests putting them in the same codex. (except above in this post ;-).

Then you have codexes that are very dissimilar, Space Wolves and Black Templars come to mind.

After those two however, there really isn't a need for any additional codexed. I play DA's and I can't really understand why they have their own codex. Either (1) they should have been very different or (2) just put us in with Angels of Death and be done with it.

Something else that occured to me. I think that we need to get used to the idea that there will be a type of marine codex EVERY year. Marines make the money, they need to push them, ergo they will create a new marine codex each year.

2008 - Space Marines
2009 - Space Wolves
2010 - Blood Angels
2011 - Black Templars (?)
2012 - Chaos (?)

Continue ad naseaum.

Could there be a better way to package them? Maybe. Is it going to happen? Probably not. There will be a MEQ codex every year.

I just want each codex to play significantly differently.

so of course space marine sales are up its all there is to buy.. Lets see is it easier to buy this sm stuff here at the store or wait several weeks for ebay to deliver my xeno army? I can tell many of you guys are smart and are giving localized opinions not state spanning etc.. This is a dedicated fan base not a big one like tcgs so you have to work with those that are hanging around. Most the gamers that play wh, wh 40k are older crowd due to its expense and lack of video game flash.. so as a business listen to fans? because its a business is the lamest attempt at bs I have ever heard. Oh yes BA are sooo different than other marines they have red rhinos not blue.. space wolves are so diff from the vanilla they has fuzzy collars.. please.. its all variants of the same thing just like the other xeno, etc armies are wanting for their armies.. but once again gw has failed to deliver..

WarmasterScott wrote:The game is called Warhammer 40k not SM squabbles..


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And has it occurred to those who use sales as a reason for the tragedy is that thats all the new stuff is sm orrientated and many stores( espeacially smaller) ones only carry new items?

It's not nearly that bad.

Space Marines get tons of support because they are a popular army. I'm not making excuses, it's actual fact.

Besides, there are plenty of non-marine players out there.

As a player in it for the very long term, the more *Official* Codices, the better. The more Codices, the more choices available, the slower the update schedule, and the longer each of my Codices remains valid before I need to buy a new one.

It's best not to bring up the new lack luster csm codex.. many chaos people are pissed at the watering down.. there's bout 8 threads of pissed off chaos people with the csm/daemon stuff.. so yes there is this going on else where for them.

WarmasterScott wrote:so of course space marine sales are up its all there is to buy.. Lets see is it easier to buy this sm stuff here at the store or wait several weeks for ebay to deliver my xeno army? I can tell many of you guys are smart and are giving localized opinions not state spanning etc.. This is a dedicated fan base not a big one like tcgs so you have to work with those that are hanging around. Most the gamers that play wh, wh 40k are older crowd due to its expense and lack of video game flash.. so as a business listen to fans? because its a business is the lamest attempt at bs I have ever heard. Oh yes BA are sooo different than other marines they have red rhinos not blue.. space wolves are so diff from the vanilla they has fuzzy collars.. please.. its all variants of the same thing just like the other xeno, etc armies are wanting for their armies.. but once again gw has failed to deliver..

Do you write up a whole bunch of these responses at once and then stick the chunk of text (frequent spelling errors and all) into a buffer, to be inserted after every other person's post?

I'm only asking because your posts do not seem to respond to other posters, and rehash the same arguments. Also, thank you for telling me that I'm smart, but I don't appreciate being told that my opinions are invalid because you think they're 'localized', while yours cover a 'whole state'.

I agree with John as well.

Newer Codex means more time for me to play without having to buy a new one.

I agree that more choice is better than less choice.

scuddman wrote:WHat about you players that think there should only be one space marine codex? Let's hear your perspective.

Simply put, if one codex works for every other army in the game, then it can work for Marines, too. The only reason Marines have more than one book is so GW can keep continuously pushing Marine sales throughout the year.

Cryonicleech wrote:

WarmasterScott wrote:The game is called Warhammer 40k not SM squabbles..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And has it occurred to those who use sales as a reason for the tragedy is that thats all the new stuff is sm orrientated and many stores( espeacially smaller) ones only carry new items?

It's not nearly that bad.

Space Marines get tons of support because they are a popular army. I'm not making excuses, it's actual fact.

Besides, there are plenty of non-marine players out there.

Have you ever taken a marketing class? If I continually shove sm stuff out with little tweaks here and there but say its all original and for yrs make the majority of the material to it you can make something popular? Of course people play marines they keep getting more stuff. If you pumped out nothing but IG or whatever for as long as the sm filth everyone would play them instead. Our place had no IG players till the new codex and the store flooded with IG stuff. Then store keepers saying oh beginners you should play sm cause I have crap loads of it cough I mean they're beginner friendly.. I am not here saying this though because "my" army is the gw love child.. I'm saying spread the love so the game grows away from just sm.


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Orkestra wrote:

WarmasterScott wrote:so of course space marine sales are up its all there is to buy.. Lets see is it easier to buy this sm stuff here at the store or wait several weeks for ebay to deliver my xeno army? I can tell many of you guys are smart and are giving localized opinions not state spanning etc.. This is a dedicated fan base not a big one like tcgs so you have to work with those that are hanging around. Most the gamers that play wh, wh 40k are older crowd due to its expense and lack of video game flash.. so as a business listen to fans? because its a business is the lamest attempt at bs I have ever heard. Oh yes BA are sooo different than other marines they have red rhinos not blue.. space wolves are so diff from the vanilla they has fuzzy collars.. please.. its all variants of the same thing just like the other xeno, etc armies are wanting for their armies.. but once again gw has failed to deliver..

Do you write up a whole bunch of these responses at once and then stick the chunk of text (frequent spelling errors and all) into a buffer, to be inserted after every other person's post?

I'm only asking because your posts do not seem to respond to other posters, and rehash the same arguments. Also, thank you for telling me that I'm smart, but I don't appreciate being told that my opinions are invalid because you think they're 'localized', while yours cover a 'whole state'.

Aside from text speech and a few run ons, I don't have spelling errors. I really don't care about your individual opinion when the defense of gw's sm force feeding is cause all their codexes make em something new! I call b t.. or the reason to ignore your fans because its a business, again b t..

Sidstyler wrote:

scuddman wrote:WHat about you players that think there should only be one space marine codex? Let's hear your perspective.

Simply put, if one codex works for every other army in the game, then it can work for Marines, too. The only reason Marines have more than one book is so GW can keep continuously pushing Marine sales throughout the year.

QFT