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A:The Civil War was about Slavery.
B: No! It was about State Rights!
A: What State right was under threat?
B: Slavery but it wasn't about that, it was about States Rights!
A: What Sate Rights?
ect ect
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Well, it's more complicated than slavery to be sure. The South saw the economic and political center of the nation shifting north, there were some grievances on all sides, but at the end the South fought over slavery.
I've never been able to figure out how the south, how dominated politics until the civil war, had anything to complain about. Thanks to the various compromises, the South almost always held the presidency, most supreme court seats, and the leadership of the Congress.
All the more reason to resent losing influence, I suppose.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Lol. I was mainly posting that to make sure nobody thought I was making a simple claim that the South fought over slavery.
Orkeosaurus wrote:All the more reason to resent losing influence, I suppose.
Well, the source of my confusion is a claim that comes up from Lost Cause types, that the South had grievances beyond slavery that were the real cause of the war.
I'm not unsympathetic, given how morals have shifted in 150 years the idea of chattel slavery has become almost unthinkable, and so those interested in Southern history and heritage are forced with either facing that, or trying to find ways to justify the war and the sacrifice of their forefathers that don't involve slavery.
It's generally not meant with malice, but it does tend to ignore the reality of the situation. I'm as Yankee as they come, and I don't think the average Confederate soldier was a bad guy. I'm not even sure the slave holders were that morally accountable. It was a different time, and a different ethic existed. It was wrong, and it's a good thing to free the slaves, but I don't demonize the South as a whole simply because of that. It was later, during the Nadir of Jim Crow, that things got pretty demonic.
One thing that should be made clear is that it's not like the North was horribly interested in dealing with the freed slaves afterwards. The North at the time was still horribly racist.
What are you kidding me? The north loved everyone all day long!!! Seriously though man... geez...
Slap me silly and call me naive... but humankind has an awful long way to go on the whole hate and divide thing... just a bit further... just... ummm... well, 10k miles further...
On a lighter note... we do have candy corn. Placebo FTW, no harm no foul... umm, and play plenty of video games to make your brain big and strong. And eat that damn candy corn, there is no way in hell I am going to eat candied-earwax.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/10/08 10:24:34
Polonius wrote:Well, it's more complicated than slavery to be sure. The South saw the economic and political center of the nation shifting north, there were some grievances on all sides, but at the end the South fought over slavery.
The Declaration of Independence written by the Southern states is almost word for word the original Declaration, but with an added part about the absolute right of white men to own negroes.
While the North might have fought the war primarily to maintain the Union and not to free the slaves, the South started the whole thing because they were afraid they were going to lose their right to own slaves.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
This thread was fine until the horror of candy corn appeared. Now I'm scared.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
OK, good. I see brown monster creature is on the case.
All praise our savior from the evil of Candy Corn.
And remember, wherever you go, there you are.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Think colored pieces of wax, which is what they really are (or small fragments of evil EVILLLLL!!!!)
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Candy Corns are like Orks, once they get a foothold they're impossible to remove. Any candy corn that is not eaten reproduces via spores and will continue to attack every halloween, so they're like necrons too. To sum it up, candy corn is like a race of Ork Necrons that never die and reproduce through spores and attack the world in timed intervals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Norwulf wrote:Overall, I'm not impressed with american puclic education. Most of my highschool/middle school experiance was hearing a bunch of teacher's opinions and propaganda. I learned alot more from my mom's homeschooling than public school. FFS they never mentioned WW2 or WW1 at the schools I went to. They told us the American civil war was about slavery and only slavery. They barely glossed over the huge tariffs the north had on the south, and didn't mention that some confederates believed in the right to secede or didn't want to fight their neighbors. By the time my peers were in their senior year, I was attending my local community college. IMO schools here are crap, (maybe it's just washington state).
It probably is just Washington, which has a pathetic 33rd place(compared to my state which is 6th). In my schools we were taught that the north placed tarrifs on the south, the issue of slavery that was just swept under the rug since the signing of the constitution, and the fact that most southerners were too poor to own slaves, and were fighting for the chance to own slaves.
We also learned about WW1 and WW2 and how the french and brits helped to start the second world war. We also learned who the real first president was.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/08 18:56:02
halonachos wrote:We also learned who the real first president was.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Hmmm - if you want to go down that route, you have to have an aggressor to appease in the first place. Plus, France and Britain had guarenteed the independence of Poland, giving us Cassus Belli once they were invaded. The annexation of Austria would've been seen as a relatively minor event, comparitively. But, to use the schoolyard response: 'THEY STARTED IT!'
You can't blame Britain, dude...
I thought he was talking about the Treaty of Versailles or something.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
I'm not saying you can. Appeasement is generally little more than a right-wing excuse for overly aggressive foreign policy (if they aren't dead, then they're being appeased!), but it has a LOT of traction on this side of the pond; especially because of the whole 'Axis of Evil' thing.
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Orkeosaurus wrote:I thought he was talking about the Treaty of Versailles or something.
I would have thought that as well, but Mr. Nachos has called himself a jingoist in the past, so I thought otherwise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/09 01:15:38
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
how the french and brits helped to start the second world war.
How? By invading Poland? Oh, hang on a minute... that was someone else.
It was probaly more the treaty of Versailles and the crippling effect it had on Germany. Which was certainly a factor in helping Hitler come to power.
I think whenever someone says 'I thought this was simple but then I found out it was quite complicated' they're probably on to something. But when someone says 'I was taught one thing but then found out it was this other thing' they've generally just replaced one simplistic view with another.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Albatross wrote:Surely the post-war partition of Nazi Germany had a worse overall effect than the treaty of Versailles? No 'Hitler' figure arose from that.
Um, how could they? Its not like hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks, and aircraft from the guys who kicked the out of the Germans were sitting right on top of them or anything for 50 years...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I'm proud to be a citizen of the nation that ended it.
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
I'm proud to be a citizen of the Nation that tested the first 2 nukes on Japan.
Happy now?
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
out of the Germans were sitting right on top of them or anything for 50 years... 
