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While I don't know about lethality, I do know it's usually easier to track down a murder by gun than a murder by knife/improvised club.

So, non-firearms do have something going for them there, at least.

And here come the vigilantes...

Really, people mostly want guns to 'feel big'. After all, it doesn't matter how many bench-presses the other guy can do, it won't help him when I press the trigger.

To the OP:

I think I mentioned this in another thread but I'll cover it again here:

1. I originally bought my M4 carbine to help me retain my marksmanship skills while I was in the National Guard. Right now it's stored at my brother's house, so if I feel 3 weeks of range time at TBS (Temporal Barrier Spell? WTF? TBS = The Basic School, USMC) isn't enough, I can go shooting with him.

2. I own 2 SKS's for tinkering and shooting-range plinking. It made more sense to buy a real gun for $175 than to buy an airsoft gun for $300. At least I can use the real gun to protect myself during the zombie apocalypse/post-hurricane insanity (I was living in Miami).


On the subject of weapon lethality and justification of firearms, I look at it like this:

There are some rights and freedoms for which a population is willing to sacrifice the lives of other citizens to keep. Most people compare weapons to cars, I prefer to compare them to alcohol.

Alcohol kills thousands every year, either through alcohol poisoning or drunk-driving accidents or just stupid mistakes. Alcohol is a complete LUXURY, unlike an essential tool like an automobile.* However, this nation decided long ago that it was collectively willing to let people die due to alcohol in order for the rest of us to enjoy its positive benefits.

The same largely goes for firearms. Yes, some people will die, but the rest of us get to enjoy our weapons.

It's also very much a cultural thing. This country was founded by men who grabbed some weapons and took matters into their own hands. Armed rebellion and individualism are at the very heart of our national identity. It's not surprising that most subjects of a constitutional monarchy don't comprehend this point; it's not the sort of mentality or behavior that such governments encourage.


*Why do they make cars that can go 200mph when speed limits are rarely over 75mph? These vehicles have a built-in capability that is largely illegal. Do they simply assume that people aren't going to use it? If manufacturers sold select-fire rifles with virtually no restrictions (illegal automatic-fire capability, but you don't have to use it) there would be an uproar.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And here come the vigilantes...

Really, people mostly want guns to 'feel big'. After all, it doesn't matter how many bench-presses the other guy can do, it won't help him when I press the trigger.

That hasn't been my experience.

Noble13 wrote:It's also very much a cultural thing. This country was founded by men who grabbed some weapons and took matters into their own hands. Armed rebellion and individualism are at the very heart of our national identity. It's not surprising that most subjects of a constitutional monarchy don't comprehend this point; it's not the sort of mentality or behavior that such governments encourage.

I guess most of us never felt compelled to rebel in the first place, especially us Australians. We've never had a terrorist attack, our government is holding up well at the moment, and people here are seem content*.

*In Tasmania at least. Murders are quite uncommon here, as opposed to Adelaide, which is apparently murder central.

Britain's history of armed rebellion stretches back around 2000 years - we have, despite being a constitutional monarchy, always had a healthy cynicism regarding authority, from Boudicca to the Miners. And the American Revolution wasn't a spontaneous uprising by oppressed, huddled masses bled white by taxation - that's propaganda.
The rebellion was driven by members of the merchant class who were demanding 'the same rights as all free-born englishmen'. The irony in the 'rebellion/independence' argument for gun-ownership is that people who espouse this notion are often ultra-conservative.

In America, conservatives usually have at least as much opposition to the government as liberals, with the focus on different issues. So that's not particularly ironic.

(Also, it wasn't purely the merchant class who were annoyed with Britain's policy on the colonies, even if they were the big leaders of it.)

Firearms are two things to me.

First, they are tools used to provide food. I happen to like deer, and it doesn't take very many rounds put through a reasonably priced rifle and into a deer to make that firearm pay for itself over and over and over. Very tastily, too. My grandmother has this recipie where you marinate strips of deer in a mustard based sauce to take the gamy bit out of the meat, the batter and fry. My Friend, them's good eats.

Second, they are, and have been for the last thousand years or so (weeeeell, not quite right; that was black powder. firearms were a bit later), the final and ultimate method of personal armament that's not trying to stop a tank. Firearms made armour on most anythign short of a terrestrial vehicle moot. In this day and age, they have an unmatched effectiveness/price point ratio for the individual.

Oops, nevermind this post.

Also, it wasn't purely the merchant class who were annoyed with Britain's policy on the colonies, even if they were the big leaders of it.

I didn't say they were - I just they said they drove it. And which policies where they unhappy with again? Remind me?

Taxation without representation in parliament, primarily. This was furthered by their experience with making decisions democratically on a more local scale.

There was some opposition to Britain's trade policy (the Navigation Acts), the closing of Boston Harbor and prohibiting of town hall meetings in Massachusetts, the western border imposed on settlers, and a general displeasure with European aristocracy, etc.

Oh yeah, Writs of Assistance and Admiralty Courts too. And the Boston Massacre, although that was overhyped.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:And here come the vigilantes...

Really, people mostly want guns to 'feel big'. After all, it doesn't matter how many bench-presses the other guy can do, it won't help him when I press the trigger.

That hasn't been my experience.

I was being sarcastic.

Well, like grizgrin I hunt, and while I might bow hunt in the future, hunting with firearms is my only option right now. On the flip side, anytime I have ever felt threatened at home I have never gone for my guns, always a bat or something that won't splatter my attackers.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Guns are much more deadly than knives and so on. That's why soldiers have guns.

Not true. You need to get in closer with a knife but it's no less deadly, in fact it's deadlier. It's a lot easier to slice open someones throat when the knife is inches away from the target than to shoot a person in the throat from 15 feet away.

Evidence based medical and police science disagrees with you.

I read those studies and they don't address lethality, they address the chances of recovery and mortality after treatment.

What they prove is that it's easier to fix someone with a knife wound than a gunshot wound, which stands to reason. A knife stab is really a pretty clean thing especially if it's a puncture wound. A gunshot is a messy, brutal affair with blunt force trauma combined with penetrating factors and is more of a tear than anything.

The fact remains that without treatment that heart, artery or venous injury via gun or knife will kill you just as dead. The gun just does it from farther away.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I was being sarcastic.

Oh.

Corey85 wrote:On the flip side, anytime I have ever felt threatened at home I have never gone for my guns, always a bat or something that won't splatter my attackers.

Yeah, blasting an intruder with a 12-gauge is probably a satisfying feeling.....until you have to get his intestines out of your carpet the next day.

Getting stabbed apparently hurts more. Getting shot has burning sensation but isn't as painful. The people I know that have had both happen say they'd rather be shot again than stabbed, or in one case, bayoneted.

I love my guns. I recently bought a new S&W 460 to hunt gators down in hte Everglades. I am looking forward to it. It always cracks me up when people say no one should be allowed to own a gun. If they ever outlaw guns I'll hide mine.

G

Guns are fun! Thats why I own them and think they are great.

They are big boy toys. Great recreation. A hobby. Something fun to collect.
I suppose it's a collectable toy for someone who is well off (ie rich).
Home defense is a bonus. But not the reason I own guns.

It's like fireworks on 4th of july. Dayum it's fun blowing stuff up. It's just as fun to shoot stuff!

The Green Git wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Guns are much more deadly than knives and so on. That's why soldiers have guns.

Not true. You need to get in closer with a knife but it's no less deadly, in fact it's deadlier. It's a lot easier to slice open someones throat when the knife is inches away from the target than to shoot a person in the throat from 15 feet away.

Evidence based medical and police science disagrees with you.

I read those studies and they don't address lethality, they address the chances of recovery and mortality after treatment.

What they prove is that it's easier to fix someone with a knife wound than a gunshot wound, which stands to reason. A knife stab is really a pretty clean thing especially if it's a puncture wound. A gunshot is a messy, brutal affair with blunt force trauma combined with penetrating factors and is more of a tear than anything.

The fact remains that without treatment that heart, artery or venous injury via gun or knife will kill you just as dead. The gun just does it from farther away.

Let me summarise what you seem to have taken from the references, to make sure I understand your argument.

Police statistics show gunshot murders comprise about 2/3rds of all murders.

Medical statistics show that gunshot wounds are roughly 5X more deadly than knife wounds, and even when death does not occur, they are twice as difficult to treat.

All this proves that knives are equally lethal as guns.

Is that correct?

I just went shooting today. Nice pump action and an over under. I sure do love trap shooting...

Kilkrazy wrote:

The Green Git wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Guns are much more deadly than knives and so on. That's why soldiers have guns.

Not true. You need to get in closer with a knife but it's no less deadly, in fact it's deadlier. It's a lot easier to slice open someones throat when the knife is inches away from the target than to shoot a person in the throat from 15 feet away.

Evidence based medical and police science disagrees with you.

I read those studies and they don't address lethality, they address the chances of recovery and mortality after treatment.

What they prove is that it's easier to fix someone with a knife wound than a gunshot wound, which stands to reason. A knife stab is really a pretty clean thing especially if it's a puncture wound. A gunshot is a messy, brutal affair with blunt force trauma combined with penetrating factors and is more of a tear than anything.

The fact remains that without treatment that heart, artery or venous injury via gun or knife will kill you just as dead. The gun just does it from farther away.

Let me summarise what you seem to have taken from the references, to make sure I understand your argument.

Police statistics show gunshot murders comprise about 2/3rds of all murders.

Medical statistics show that gunshot wounds are roughly 5X more deadly than knife wounds, and even when death does not occur, they are twice as difficult to treat.

All this proves that knives are equally lethal as guns.

Is that correct?

I'll stab you in the gut with a 8" bowie knife and shoot you in the gut with a .22 pistol from 15 feet. Guess which wound proves more lethal and fatal (a hint: it won't be the .22 pistol round)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JEB_Stuart wrote:I just went shooting today. Nice pump action and an over under. I sure do love trap shooting...

Best enjoy it before our new Overlords try to pass some other dumbass law restricting your gun rights or ammo access.

I like watching "Shooting Gallery" on the, I think it's, Outdoor Channel. There is one old dude on their who can shoot a double action revolver as fast as most guys can shoot a semi-auto and he is an insanely good shot as well.

George Spiggott wrote:I've wanted a Broom Handled Mauser for a while now. Not enough to actually go out and buy one.

They are way cool but not accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mick A wrote:It is interesting that it seems to be mainly Americans that own guns or want to own them. I can't, and won't, condone this as I have never lived over there but it does make me glad that my family and I live over here...
Mick

probably because its a predominantly US board. Go to Texas gun sites and you'll be stunned at how many Texans are there, and how pro gun they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:I would think upon seeing the MG-42 sitting behind sandbags in my front yard would keep criminals out.

Son, I like the cut of your jib.

For the record, anyone putting an MG 42 in their front yard, will have my respect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Noble13 wrote:It's also very much a cultural thing. This country was founded by men who grabbed some weapons and took matters into their own hands. Armed rebellion and individualism are at the very heart of our national identity. It's not surprising that most subjects of a constitutional monarchy don't comprehend this point; it's not the sort of mentality or behavior that such governments encourage.

I guess most of us never felt compelled to rebel in the first place, especially us Australians. We've never had a terrorist attack, our government is holding up well at the moment, and people here are seem content*.

*In Tasmania at least. Murders are quite uncommon here, as opposed to Adelaide, which is apparently murder central.

Funny, if the aborigines had been armed with AKs, they would have managed to keep that illegal immigration problem under control...
Might have allowed them to keep their families intact as well yes?

You're asking people what's great about guns on a website called "DAKKADAKKA?"

Good point there.

Fateweaver wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

The Green Git wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Guns are much more deadly than knives and so on. That's why soldiers have guns.

Not true. You need to get in closer with a knife but it's no less deadly, in fact it's deadlier. It's a lot easier to slice open someones throat when the knife is inches away from the target than to shoot a person in the throat from 15 feet away.

Evidence based medical and police science disagrees with you.

I read those studies and they don't address lethality, they address the chances of recovery and mortality after treatment.

What they prove is that it's easier to fix someone with a knife wound than a gunshot wound, which stands to reason. A knife stab is really a pretty clean thing especially if it's a puncture wound. A gunshot is a messy, brutal affair with blunt force trauma combined with penetrating factors and is more of a tear than anything.

The fact remains that without treatment that heart, artery or venous injury via gun or knife will kill you just as dead. The gun just does it from farther away.

Let me summarise what you seem to have taken from the references, to make sure I understand your argument.

Police statistics show gunshot murders comprise about 2/3rds of all murders.

Medical statistics show that gunshot wounds are roughly 5X more deadly than knife wounds, and even when death does not occur, they are twice as difficult to treat.

All this proves that knives are equally lethal as guns.

Is that correct?

I'll stab you in the gut with a 8" bowie knife and shoot you in the gut with a .22 pistol from 15 feet. Guess which wound proves more lethal and fatal (a hint: it won't be the .22 pistol round)?

Why don't you answer my question?

On a one to one correct. However knife wounds are typically multiple. But yea I'd posit gunshot wounds are more lethal in general than knife wounds. Thats kind of the point.

As the immortal bard used to say: "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."

How about killcrazy shoots you in the gut from 15 feet and you(fateweaver) then fall down and cry like a baby because you got shot in the gut, also, if you want to compare knives to bullets, use comparable sizes.

.22=butter knife, 8" bowie=.308, 7.56, or even 50cal.

Personally I own 2 firearms a .22 rifle and a 7.62 rifle. In my family's house we have more than several rifles of varying calibers, a shotgun, and a bunch of pistols of varying calibers.

Why, because we can and they're interesting. Its fun to go to the local range and fire a few dozen rounds at paper targets and the smell of expended cartridges is awesome. Sometimes its just for history, like a musket used by a relative in the civil war, or a weapon used by soldiers in previous wars. Other times its just because its fun to shoot stuff.

George Spiggott wrote:I've wanted a Broom Handled Mauser for a while now. Not enough to actually go out and buy one.

I have one. They are pretty cool. First time out at the range I was hiding under the bench for the first shot out of that gun. I wasn't sure if the gun was going to blow up since it was over 70 years old.

inquisitor_bob wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:I've wanted a Broom Handled Mauser for a while now. Not enough to actually go out and buy one.

I have one. They are pretty cool. First time out at the range I was hiding under the bench for the first shot out of that gun. I wasn't sure if the gun was going to blow up since it was over 70 years old.

That's funny! You are an honest person! I admit I've always wanted one as well (for reasons of Han Solo and being nine when that first film came out). I've fired one but never bought one.