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Eldar Own wrote:True, the way that to hit only ranges from 3+ to 5+ is bonkers, I mean a Pheonix Lord needs a 5 to hit a grot!!?? surely it should be at least 6. Expanding theese is a good idea.

Back to the general concept, i think its good, often when things get bunched up you have 2 different models with the same WS when clearly one should be better than another. I can think of one example that would benefit from this- both boyz and nobz have WS4 nobz are more experienced so should have WS5. However this clashes with the Warboss, but sinse the 'max' has been raised its fine to put him up to 6.

Yep! That's the whole point, it makes so much more sense this way and helps everyone. (I'm talking about raising the maximum)

Also, on a closing note, since we're on the subject of raising ork stats, i would like to preach again of my thought (or demand) to raise big meks BS to 3.

Makes sense to me. I thought it always was BS3, but I guess not!

HI Fifty.
Thats my point about using a dice in a deterministic way.
D6 =6 posible results.
D 12 =12 possible results.

As long as we roll one die seperately per minature we are restricted to using dice in a deterministic way.
If we roll for the UNIT , we can roll multiple D6.
Comparing the results of 2 units fighting with WS of 3 =roll 3D6and compare this gives 225 possible out comes.
Any one know where to get D225s?

If we use WS-BS as number of dice the UNIT rolls we can get loads more detail in the interaction!

But that means straight forward rules and masses of game play, and no one wants that in 40k do they...

TTFN
Lanrak.

TTFN
Lanrak.

The ws/ bs system in 40k is all outta whack.

Yeah eldar characters can be higher up with these stats, And as a long time daemon player The lord of change has been robbed of his old BS 10 and I 10. A lord of change was shooting stuff down with easy by the time the eldar were fighting with primitive weapons! Not to mention the other greater daemons.

The deterministic approach to this is interesting to me. We have been playing a good bit of Necromunda lately, and combat there has a definite different feeling than 40k.
For those who are not familiar, each model rolls 1d6 for each A in it's profile (plus bonus), picks the highest, and adds their WS plus modifiers. The model with the highest score wins, and for each point they win by they get 1 hit on their opponant.
It was really wierd at first, since I has very little to do with it (only affecting ties) and the loser doesn't get to do anything other than die. However, it does make an interesting trade off between attacks and WS. Since your attack based number really only peaks at 6 (though rolling extra 6's gives a bonus and 1's give penalties) there is a diminishing return on getting a higher attack stat. Once you get that natural 6, every other die is only a chance to hurt or help yourself by 1.
WS, on the other hand, is always added straight, so more skilled opponants will defeat less skilled ones more consistantly. However, crappy rolls will still get you smacked.
Of course this really isn't convenient for a multiple model game, but it does demonstrate the very interesting results you can get by using different methods of resolution.

Tao wrote:The ws/ bs system in 40k is all outta whack.

Yeah eldar characters can be higher up with these stats, And as a long time daemon player The lord of change has been robbed of his old BS 10 and I 10. A lord of change was shooting stuff down with easy by the time the eldar were fighting with primitive weapons! Not to mention the other greater daemons.

To be fair all of the daemons lost their super awesome stats.

Bloodthirsters were WS10 BS10 S7 T7 W10 I10 A10.

The good old days...now Lords of Change have what, BS5?

I feel that this puts too much emphasis on heroes. If you play Eldar you have to use tactics where a Chaos Lord can really shred anything you put him up against.

When I see a 'fex or hero running at me I can't just countercharge with MY hero. I use Mind War, Doom and charge him, or Guide heavy weapons at him.

Owain wrote:I feel that this puts too much emphasis on heroes. If you play Eldar you have to use tactics where a Chaos Lord can really shred anything you put him up against.

When I see a 'fex or hero running at me I can't just countercharge with MY hero. I use Mind War, Doom and charge him, or Guide heavy weapons at him.

I should have probably put this in the first post. Heroes shouldn't just be the only benefactors of the increase.

If you play Eldar, and your Autarch has WS7, he will still lose against a Carnifex.

You can still "use tactics". This just makes the game more interesting for those of us who play the game for the cinematic and background aspect of it, not the game aspect of it.

I think it would make things more interesting too. It seems to me that the WS chart is a bit ridiculous, as well as the values for daemons in their current form. Is it really plausible that a guardsman could have a chance to hit a genestealer 50% of the time in cc? I think not.

And for all those who are shying away from heroes, lets take a look at the heroes in the codexes. How are they portrayed? As being unstoppable killing machines. Why not give them better stats? They already have one of ten thousand special rules that only apply to that special character. Doesn't a stat boost make sense?

The thing everyone should keep in consideration here is that if you boost the effectiveness of assault units, you are going to have to proportionally increase the effectiveness of shooting units.

HI all.
Skinnater raises a VERY good point.
If the only effect shooting has is to cause casualties,then this causes havoc on the generaly smaller unit sizes in 40k, so to cover this LD boosts are necissary to ensure some units make it into the super powered assaults!

IF however , shooting was used MAINLY to supress units ,(reduce opponents manouverability,)and asaults were the main method of destroying units....
It would make the game FAR more intuitive and straight forward, IMO.
(Especialy if assaults included the effects of close range shooting .... )

TTFN
Lanrak.

If shooting is used mainly to suppress units then the Imperial Guard is screwed.

Shooting sucks enough as it is, why make it worse?

Shooting should either be to cause casualties or to suppress. For example, a lasgun versus a sniper. Lasguns should be for casualties, snipers to cause a casualty and to suppress the crap out of people.

Which is why I really like the Thunderfire cannon, the one that makes it so the people seem to move in difficult terrain.

If Heavy Bolters and the like did this, shooting would be much better.

Unfortunately something like that would make the rules even more complicated, wouldn't it?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Unfortunately something like that would make the rules even more complicated, wouldn't it?

I fail to see how.

Suppressing: Squads taking fire from this weapon take a LD test at -X, where X is the amount of troops in the squad taking a wound by this weapon. (0 men wounded: test at normal LD). If the squad fails, it moves as if in difficult terrain for the next turn. If it passes it may act as normal.

Well, even that is a lot more to remember already. You've also put in another 3 steps to every act of shooting... Which to me seems like a lot. Perhaps complicated is the wrong word, maybe 'slowing down the game' would be a more appropriate term?

I feel like I am watching my roommate troll the WoW forums... with everyone and their dog saying that they are underpowered and need a buff... and everyone else saying they are over powered and need to be nerfed.

Lt Lathrop wrote:I feel like I am watching my roommate troll the WoW forums... with everyone and their dog saying that they are underpowered and need a buff... and everyone else saying they are over powered and need to be nerfed.

Hammer, meet nail. Nail, meet hammer.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well, even that is a lot more to remember already. You've also put in another 3 steps to every act of shooting... Which to me seems like a lot. Perhaps complicated is the wrong word, maybe 'slowing down the game' would be a more appropriate term?

I have an idea for you. If this is so much to remember, then how about we change the entire game to speed up the game for you:

Just have a roll to hit and a roll to save.

So an Imperial Guardsman will hit on a 4+, and then there is a roll to save.

Just sped the game up there!


By the way, I'm not really claiming that anything is more powerful or not powerful enough, I'm just trying to help out everyone with stat boosts. Yep.

Vladsimpaler wrote: I'm just trying to help out everyone with stat boosts. Yep.

How does across the board stat inflation change anything?

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: I'm just trying to help out everyone with stat boosts. Yep.

How does across the board stat inflation change anything?

Jack

It's not for every single unit.

However it opens up breathing room for other factions.

For example, if Autarchs go to WS7 and BS7, then Marine captains can easily go to WS6 and BS6.

You could have stuff like the Sternguard then go to BS5.

In all it just opens a lot of room for everyone to work.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well, even that is a lot more to remember already. You've also put in another 3 steps to every act of shooting... Which to me seems like a lot. Perhaps complicated is the wrong word, maybe 'slowing down the game' would be a more appropriate term?

I have an idea for you. If this is so much to remember, then how about we change the entire game to speed up the game for you

Would you please? I'm aware of the fact I'm the center of the universe and that you're here to serve me.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
For example, if Autarchs go to WS7 and BS7, then Marine captains can easily go to WS6 and BS6.

You could have stuff like the Sternguard then go to BS5.

In all it just opens a lot of room for everyone to work.

I suppose, but personally I don't feel that the heroes need to be better then everyone else, so if the goal is to make Sternguard and the like better then they can be improved with out changing anyone else (much like IG Veterans are the BS as the IG heroes) and avoid the unfortunate hero hammer effect.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
For example, if Autarchs go to WS7 and BS7, then Marine captains can easily go to WS6 and BS6.

You could have stuff like the Sternguard then go to BS5.

In all it just opens a lot of room for everyone to work.

I suppose, but personally I don't feel that the heroes need to be better then everyone else, so if the goal is to make Sternguard and the like better then they can be improved with out changing anyone else (much like IG Veterans are the BS as the IG heroes) and avoid the unfortunate hero hammer effect.

Jack

Herohammer still is irrelevant as even if Eldar Autarchs has WS10 BS10, they'd STILL get insta-killed by Str 6 weapons.

Personally I just want to make heroes a bit cooler. I'm not suggesting that we go back to 2nd edition with super hard to kill guys, but not boring heroes either. That's just me though.

I don't think that shifting all unit's WS about is a big deal from an effect perspective, and I do agree that it will add a bit in the fluff perspective, but I also think it won't actually do anything overall and the process of making this shift will be extremely difficult, cause a lot of problems and a major increase in the number of complaints.

So from a bare logistics perspective, I wouldn't do it. It's just nonsensical at this point in Warhammer 4o,ooo.