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So this has bothered me for a while.

Whenever a character gets WS or BS 6 and it's not an Eldar, there's a lot of whining. Who cares?

When I made an Eldar character with WS7 (the same as a Phoenix Lord) I got bitched at because supposedly my guy can't have it.

So this is what I am thinking.

Increase Autarchs and Archons to WS, BS, and I 7. Phoenix Lords to WS9 and BS and I8 or something along those lines. Points should also be increased accordingly.

This would give all factions some breathing room. Space Marine characters could then easily go to WS and BS6, Imperial Guard could easily then go to WS and BS5 without complaints. Again, points costs should be increased if they do get such statistics.

Daemons also need some boosts in these areas. A Lord of Change should have BS9 at least. Greater Daemons should especially get higher S and T. Really, a Bloodthirster that is pretty much the epitome of pain is as tough as a Keeper of Secrets?

In short, by increasing statistics for some faction, all factions can benefit by increasing their stats as well because it will fit with background better that way, and there can be a lot more room for variation.

Thoughts?

Vladsimpaler wrote:
In short, by increasing statistics for some faction, all factions can benefit by increasing their stats as well because it will fit with background better that way, and there can be a lot more room for variation.

How does this make the game play better, or more fun?

Or go play 2nd edition it had more inflated stat numbers for heroes.

Jack

Autarchs and Pheonix Lords could probably use the boost, honestly.

Jackmojo wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
In short, by increasing statistics for some faction, all factions can benefit by increasing their stats as well because it will fit with background better that way, and there can be a lot more room for variation.

How does this make the game play better, or more fun?

Or go play 2nd edition it had more inflated stat numbers for heroes.

Jack

Because it increases variation and as such you don't see everyone with only WS and BS4? It gets kind of boring after a while.

I don't know how much more fun it would make it, but it would definitely be a lot more interesting.

I would love to play 2nd edition. Would be much better than the crap fest that is Warhammer 40k 5th edition. But that's not why I think the boost would be good.

To me variation is great, and the more the better. Currently there is very little variation. I'm not asking for hero hammer but I'm not asking for boring heroes either.

If they wanted to redesign the system so that 5 was a baseline human, and there was more room for variation up and down, that would be fine, but otherwise these sort of stat boosts are only for herohammer types...

Jack

Except for the fact that regular humans are consistently some of the lowest-powered soldiers in the Warhammer 40k universe?

Seriously, why would you need 4 different stats for "weaker than a human"? Would you have extremely detailed stats for grots and nurglings?

Well put Space Marines at five then it hardly matters, just so long as their is a middle range, and not just a large range for heroes and not for anyone else.

The scale now is basically 2-4 for troopers and 3-10 for heroes, that's what I'm objecting to really.

Jack

There are a few 5s, even just for troops choices. Plague marines, Berserkers, DE Warriors, Dire Avengers (I think), Some Hormogaunt Morphs, Genestealers, Nobs on the charge, Gray Knights.

I can see what you mean about using the full scale for more than characters and monstrous creatures, though. You never seem much above 6 for WS, BS, or I, and it limits the stats a lot.

I also blame GW for making Space Marines these end-all be all super monsters and for considering IG to be the lowest rung of the ladder when they aren't.

It was better when they were WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 with a 4+ save instead of what they are now.

Now, when an Imperial Guardsman Veteran gets BS4 there is frothing all around.

I say make the Marines not as ridiculous and then there can also be more improvement.

Hence my issues, you want to increase hero stats on Eldar units but not on any of the standard troopers...

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:Hence my issues, you want to increase hero stats on Eldar units but not on any of the standard troopers...

Jack

I never said that. I want to increase stats on other heros as well.

For troopers, I did not really talk about them. However they could easily get stat bonuses as well. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, breathing room will be opened for everyone.

I am absolutely confused as to what the entire purpose of this thread was.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I also blame GW for making Space Marines these end-all be all super monsters and for considering IG to be the lowest rung of the ladder when they aren't.

It was better when they were WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 with a 4+ save instead of what they are now.

Now, when an Imperial Guardsman Veteran gets BS4 there is frothing all around.

I say make the Marines not as ridiculous and then there can also be more improvement.

Oh, boo hoo, Space Marines are better than Guardsmen. That's why Guardsmen are 5pts and Space Marines are triple that.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:I also blame GW for making Space Marines these end-all be all super monsters and for considering IG to be the lowest rung of the ladder when they aren't.

It was better when they were WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 with a 4+ save instead of what they are now.

Now, when an Imperial Guardsman Veteran gets BS4 there is frothing all around.

I say make the Marines not as ridiculous and then there can also be more improvement.

Oh, boo hoo, Space Marines are better than Guardsmen. That's why Guardsmen are 5pts and Space Marines are triple that.

IG used to be the base stat line for every other race to be judged, marines being the elite brutes they should be were set far higher than this. GW grab for gamers cash has muddied the waters. If we are looking for change then the base stats of SM should be the new template with every race diverging off this. SM are the elite, the best of the best, a tactical marine or sergeant has the ability to take down Autachs, Nid Warriors, Necron Lords. every other race needs some elite or special to take down these demi gods.

Besides changing every race stat lines does not change the mechanics or flow of games played, you just have the same issue as before with players wanting to up or decrease stats...ad infinitum.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:I also blame GW for making Space Marines these end-all be all super monsters and for considering IG to be the lowest rung of the ladder when they aren't.

It was better when they were WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 with a 4+ save instead of what they are now.

Now, when an Imperial Guardsman Veteran gets BS4 there is frothing all around.

I say make the Marines not as ridiculous and then there can also be more improvement.

Oh, boo hoo, Space Marines are better than Guardsmen. That's why Guardsmen are 5pts and Space Marines are triple that.

And then you Spess Mehrenns players all go boo hoo and cut themselves when a guardsman gets BS4.

Imperial Guard used to be and still should be the base line. Why? It's balanced and makes more sense that way. You know why? It's probably something to do with the fact that the Imperial Guard are the most common fighting force in the entire galaxy!

If Imperial Guard are the baseline at 5 points, then infantry should be balanced around them.

Having the Spess Mehreens as the baseline is also another constricting factor.

In terms of stat-lines, the only thing that is really worse is Gretchin.

@ Eidolon-
The topic was SUPPOSED to be about increasing stats to allow breathing room and statistic increases for all factions.

But it's just turned into a debate really.

I'm kind of failing to follow the debate as well, to be honest.

I think if you're going to have a range, you should use the entire range. Since having a high weapon skill (above 5) really only matters around other high weapon skills, I think that there should be a decent sorting of the fighters by WS. WS9 doesn't help against WS4 any more than WS5 does, but it sure helps against WS8. Why not have the heros of the races up and down that scale?

IG might be the base of the scales, but they're not the middle. 3's for humans and 4's for marines works out fine, and people are used to it. Upping the overall WS range beyond 3,4, &5 would make things more varied. Why aren't Terminators and assault Aspects WS5? Why aren't IG stormtroopers WS4? A bigger range = more interesting units and matchups.

One of the ways GW has finally changed in the last three years is to simply allow two base attacks on units (SM veterans, various demons, orks) instead of continually coming up with different modifiers.

Hmmm, I think you are right about the eldar and the space marines, but the guard??? Imagine a regular guy who got trained, no targeting systems or anything. The lasgun doesn't even look like it has an iron sight on it, so no BS5 for IG.

Polonius wrote:WS9 doesn't help against WS4 any more than WS5 does

Actually, WS4 hits WS9 on a 5+.

(I agree with what you're saying though.)

IyandenWarhost wrote:Hmmm, I think you are right about the eldar and the space marines, but the guard??? Imagine a regular guy who got trained, no targeting systems or anything. The lasgun doesn't even look like it has an iron sight on it, so no BS5 for IG.

Except that an Imperial Guardsman has gone through training that would make even the most hardcore military unit today crap themselves.

Do they really deserve nothing?

Also I thought of a revised weapon skill chart where there are hits on a 2+ and on a 6+. So WS7 would hit WS3 on a 2+ and so on.


I agree with Polonius on having the whole scale used.

Hmm, seems like there are two debates here (one about regular troopers, one about heroes).

I actually agree with the first point more- that increasing stats on the (eldar) heroes might open up a little more room for others' heroes. For the basic troopers to change... it sounds like you're changing the whole system, which is a taller order! Rather than just a tweak...

They should rethink the whole system and build it around d10s for better averages.

D12 would be better - divides nicely into 4.

I do agree there isn't much point having a scale from 1-10 when most troops have either 3 or 4. They could make the stats much more sensetive as they have the room. An example would be the toughness of Orks, IG and SM. Orks are tougher than humans so should have higher than T3 but I always thought SM having strengthend bones and other simialr things would be have higher toughness than Orks.

It seems that at the moment GW are just wasting the top half of the stat range.

I also agree that the emphasis should be taken of elite armies. It's really hard to see SM as the best of the best when they are the army everything is judged off of. It changes from SM being the best to IG just being the low. I hope this makes sense, I just think the emphasis is wrong.

Of course we know this isn't going to change as GW love SM, but its a shame.

The low BS and WS for Guardians is fine.
Poets and philosophers make up mediocre soldiers.

Ya that makes no sense WS 9 on Phoenix Lord is stupid. A Blood Thirster is WS10 your gonna tell me that Eldar guy is almost as good as a Blood Thirster hitting?

CajunMan550 wrote:Ya that makes no sense WS 9 on Phoenix Lord is stupid. A Blood Thirster is WS10 your gonna tell me that Eldar guy is almost as good as a Blood Thirster hitting?

No, it's not stupid. And here's why.

Bloodthirsters have this little thing called T6 and Str7. They will still always beat a Phoenix Lord.

In fact Bloodthirsters should beat pretty much anything. Which is why they should have their T increased to 7. Probably higher BS (they are a Daemon of a god that is all about war, after all) and other higher stats.

Plus keep in mind that Phoenix Lords would be a bit more agile.


Personally I'm more keen on increasing statistics for heroes than for troops, but if there are some troops or elites or whatever that deserve to have stat increases (Chosen, I'm looking at you) then the stat increases for the heroes will allow that to happen.

Okay i'll chime in....

I don't like how the stat system is right now. It works fine, true.

The problem with it is that almost EVERYTHING is within 3-5 in all of the stats. This is not cool IMHO.

I would like to see the 1-10 system used! Eldar Autarches are beyond comprable in both speed and skill in arms. They have literally lived hundreds of human lifetimes in war, and it should show.

Also, Eldar are fast. VERY fast. Why the hell is it only represented by Fleet!? So they can run + assault instead of just run like everyone else... They must be so fast?...

I think that in the next edition, the balanced between races should be differed. Smurfs @ All 4 and IG @ all 3 is nice. All Eldar should have at least I4 if not I5 standard. They really are fast little buggers. Their drawbacks are that their units aren't really flexible and they have T3. Fragile. Orks I think are at a good point too.

Another thing is that Eldar Aspects are very skilled in the use of arms. Guardians @ 3 is fine, but IMO aspect warriors should not have their respective attributes raised. EX. DA-BS5, HB-WS5 etc...

I actually think that most troops stats are good. But Elites and HQ especially should be looking for a boost.

Even (EX.) Vet Sarges for tac marines. They should at least be WS5. They are veterans of war. Smurfs engage at close quarters fighting and I'm betting this guy is VERY good at that. Same goes for most other sarg upgrades IMHO. Shooting termies --> BS5 and Assault Terms @ WS5 isn't far fetched. They are Vets of the chapter. Not normal smurfs.

Putting an Eldar Pheonix Lord @ WS9 BS9 is not far fetched. It's quite deserved. They have lived for how long in a state of almost eternal war? They are not just a little bit more skilled than a Smurfs Chapter Master, they are much more.

Same goes for things like GKGM. This guy is a monster. He slays Greater Daemons all the time. He should be able to stand up to them!

Really, I think my main point is that I want to see the 1-10 system used more liberally....

I have to agree Ezek, I say you got it right on the button, if these changes where set in place I believe it would be far more "believeble" and enjoyable. will have to try and find someone willing to play some of these changes at some point, dying too see how WS5 HB Exarch with a the eldar"relic blade" would fair, and with WS5 Terms with TH/SS would plow through units the way they are meant to, not slowly, but in a turn or two, leaving them to move on, or sink an entire army down in melee. and +2 to hit Assault cannon? or a Bladestormed dual Shurikens?

the more I think about it, the more it seems to give the game a more epic feel, like the fights you read in the fluff, of marines brawling their way through mobs of foes, or a well placed squad of Eldar cutting down their foe in a single hail of soft glass blades.

Its a system re-write issue at this point though, not something limited to the few hero characters and monsters.

The 1-10 stat system grew out of Fantasy having a system used to represent things ranging from T1 rats and insects to T10 Dragons and Daemons. Humans and other humanlike critters fall pretty far down that sort of scale, and with monsters being much less common in 40k (replaced by vehicles which now have their own rules) it leaves the upper end of the scale empty.

A new base system is the only effective fix at this point and GW is unlikely to embrace that after their negative impact in the switchover to 3rd edition (I know I've heard rumors that Andy chambers left over some disagreement on this issue with the business side management).

So for the system they have, I think most of the hero stats are fine (and since WS increases are largely ineffective due to the "To hit 5+ =2xWS+1" formula) and the lack of ranged to hit modifiers rendering BS 6+ mostly useless their is little point in adjusting just those stats.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:



I would love to play 2nd edition. Would be much better than the crap fest that is Warhammer 40k 5th edition. But that's not why I think the boost would be good.

To me variation is great, and the more the better. Currently there is very little variation. I'm not asking for hero hammer but I'm not asking for boring heroes either.

How long have you been playing 40k?

I've been playing since Rogue Trader. I can tell you with full conviction that 2nd edition SUCKED compared to every subsequent release of 40k. The stat lines were overcomplicated, 10 different styles of dice were needed, you could easily create cheesy superhero characters, and it generally did not flow. At all. It was also a random romp every time.

The few things about second edition that WERE more interesting (strategy cards, using force cards for psychic powers, etc.) slowed down the game and left too much to chance. More fun? Kind of.

Until your opponent ran an assassin in Terminator armor with a displacer field in polymorphine on a bike with a vortex grenade.

Or the Swooping Hawk exarch who flies high the first turn, pops down the second turn and sucks your Land Raider and whatever's in it into the warp with a vortex grenade.



2nd edition sucked. Everyone who played 2nd edition remembers that 2nd edition sucked. 5th is far more strategic, requires far more tactical skill, is less oriented towards cheese, and is balanced in a way that allows you to field a satisfying number of models and play a game that doesn't take 6 hours to complete.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EzeKK wrote:

Another thing is that Eldar Aspects are very skilled in the use of arms. Guardians @ 3 is fine, but IMO aspect warriors should not have their respective attributes raised. EX. DA-BS5, HB-WS5 etc...

You realize that if DA were BS5, they would be hitting on 2's with Blade Storm, right?

I'm pretty sure that blade storm is good enough as is.


If you want to be more precise with molding stat lines, you're going to have to get away from using the D6. It only allows for so much variation before things become unbalanced. This is goofy, considering that GW has been specifically streamlining 40k to get rid of everything BUT the d6. 2nd ed., with its slowed stat lines, used to require a D4, D10, D20, sustained fire dice, scatter dice (with numbers, not just arrows), etc.

Armor values used to range from 15 to 24 or 25. They realized that by dumbing it down, making penetration as D6 + str and having you attack a lower armor value, and changing the str of certain weapons (assault cannons used to be str 8), they can eliminate the need for 10 different styles of dice.