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If I remember correctly, he didn't have control over the time travel. It just sort of happened as a result of entering the black hole that Spock created.

Yeah, but now he's in the past. To get to the future all you have to do is wait around and time will sort that one out for you.

Sure, it'll be his ancestors and not him that are there when the planet is saved, but the planet will be saved.

I mean, he was effectively insane. And, to be perfectly correct, the planet wouldn't have been his Romulus as the one that was destroyed existed in an alternate universe.

dogma wrote:I mean, he was effectively insane. And, to be perfectly correct, the planet wouldn't have been his Romulus as the one that was destroyed existed in an alternate universe.

If he didn't care about saving it because it was an alternate universe Romulus, why would he care about blowing up alternate dimension Vulcan?

I think we're putting more thought into this than the production team ever did

The article from Cracked today seems appropriate for this thread.

http://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/

sebster wrote:

dogma wrote:I mean, he was effectively insane. And, to be perfectly correct, the planet wouldn't have been his Romulus as the one that was destroyed existed in an alternate universe.

If he didn't care about saving it because it was an alternate universe Romulus, why would he care about blowing up alternate dimension Vulcan?

I think we're putting more thought into this than the production team ever did

I think this goes back the insanity thing and the fact that he isn't/wasn't a military commander. Like Khan following Kirk into the nebula was a stupid one that he knew was a bad idea but his desire to destroy Kirk would not allow him to rationally consider any other option.

As for landing on the planet (True) Spock was on, that isn't luck, that is fate. Happens to heroes all the time.

Ahtman wrote:As for landing on the planet (True) Spock was on, that isn't luck, that is dramatic convenience. Happens to heroes all the time.

Fixed.

Locclo wrote:

Ahtman wrote:As for landing on the planet (True) Spock was on, that isn't luck, that is dramatic convenience. Happens to heroes all the time.

Fixed.

Eh, same thing. If nothing of interest or importance happens to a hero in a genre story and it is just them going about their day it wouldn't be that interesting.

sebster wrote:
If he didn't care about saving it because it was an alternate universe Romulus, why would he care about blowing up alternate dimension Vulcan?

Because he wanted same universe Spock to watch Vulcan explode. I never really thought that he had beef with the Vulcans. It seemed life he just really hated Spock.

sebster wrote:
I think we're putting more thought into this than the production team ever did

Definitely.

Hawkins wrote:The newest temimator movie, why isnt everyone dying of rad poisoning, and why are there all those useless little fires everywhere.

How about the fact that they are in a Terminator production factory shooting stuff up and yet Skynet decides to activate all of one Terminator? Why not activate them ALL.

How is it that terminators have demonstrated that they can rip a guys heart out with one punch, as in the first movie, yet have to hit and throw around other people several times in order to kill them?

What movie dosent have some plot hole. I mean its hollywood..

There seems to be a lot of confusion between plot holes and tropes.

Or people just being silly, like the whole Harry Potter diversion.

A good example of a plot hole would be Eagle Eye (although I was paying attention to other things during the movie, and only sporadically watched so I might've missed something), in that there was really no reason that given the abilities of the antagonist, that Shia LeBeouf simply couldn't have been taken directly where he needed to be, instead of going through all the eye candy chases.

Except then of course you wouldn't have the movie.

JEB_Stuart wrote:The article from Cracked today seems appropriate for this thread.

http://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/

There was a comment that amused me greatly in regards to "Avatar".

A bigger plothole in Avatar was why did they fly a jillion miles to a jungle planet with mechs? Oh yeah, they'll do so well with big giant walkers on a planet that's entirely swamp/ deep jungle. Did nobody in that universe see Star Wars? At least the Na'vi weren't small furry bears...

Because we all know how well tanks and other armored vehicles would do in a jungle setting, amirite?
I'm still fuzzy on the mechs in Avatar(haven't seen it yet), but aren't they about the size of a Sentinel?
Seems perfectly workable to me. Especially if they can be deployed via the Orca lookalikes.

In fact, the mech reminds me of the "Wolverine" from Tiberian Sun. And that gunship really does bear more than a passing resemblance to the GDI Orca.
Hrm.

Kanluwen wrote:Because we all know how well tanks and other armored vehicles would do in a jungle setting, amirite?
I'm still fuzzy on the mechs in Avatar(haven't seen it yet), but aren't they about the size of a Sentinel?
Seems perfectly workable to me. Especially if they can be deployed via the Orca lookalikes.

In fact, the mech reminds me of the "Wolverine" from Tiberian Sun. And that gunship really does bear more than a passing resemblance to the GDI Orca.
Hrm.

The mechs in Avatar are more like skinny Dreadnoughts than Sentinels - the pilot controls it by physically moving his body. And while it is a massive jungle setting, it seems that the trees aren't too close together for the mechs to walk around and shoot. There were actually large expanses of open areas for them to be used effectively, though landing a huge VTOL in the jungle using only human eyes to guide seemed a bit...out there.

So they're more exoskeletons than mechs.

Awesome.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Also, their neurological technology can transfer your mind into an alien's body, but repairing a severed spinal cord is difficult?

I'm guessing you didn't see the movie. the only reason he was crippled was because the operation was expensive and his soldier benefits didn't cover it. In fact it's what the colonel promises him to get him on his side.

@Wraithlordmechanic (WLM): True that.

But another plot hole in Avatar is how the feth did the Blue Navi Chick figure out that it was him in the pod? How did she suddenly know about that technology, and that the dude she 'did' was actually a human? When did she find out?

dogma wrote:If I remember correctly, he didn't have control over the time travel. It just sort of happened as a result of entering the black hole that Spock created.

So instead of being Captain Queeg, why doesn't he just go to Rumulus, show them the awesome ship and have Romulus deal with the supernova, or better yet the technology on the mining ship to give the Romulan Star Empire a real kick in the pants to take over the quadrant? It was a good movie, but I didn't understand any of it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Wraithlordmechanic (WLM): True that.

But another plot hole in Avatar is how the feth did the Blue Navi Chick figure out that it was him in the pod? How did she suddenly know about that technology, and that the dude she 'did' was actually a human? When did she find out?

If you pay attention, they mention it frequently during the beginning - the avatars are outcast for not being true Na'vi (The Na'vi call them "dreamwalkers"). Plus, most (If not all) of the Na'vi spoke fluent English, which IIRC was a result of the scientist teaching them. Since some humans were trying to get peaceful relations with the Na'vi, it's not so bizarre that they knew about the avatars. Plus, given all those avatars that were at the base in the beginning...

Oh, and as for how she knew it was him, well...number one, I believe they helped move the pod out of the military zone and into Na'vi territory, so it's not really a secret, and number two, the avatars were created using the genes of the people who were going to take control of them - if you look closely, Jake's avatar actually bears a very close resemblance to him.

So, that's not really a plot hole, that's you just not remembering the movie or not paying attention to the beginning.

Okay, I guess you're right. But it is kinda wierd how the Colonel crashes right next to the pod, eh? Not a plot hole perse, but a sort of dramatic development?

Relapse wrote:How is it that terminators have demonstrated that they can rip a guys heart out with one punch, as in the first movie, yet have to hit and throw around other people several times in order to kill them?

I can answer this one.

Skynet needs Connor.

Why has not yet been revealed, but the theory is sound. After all, Skynet we know, has Time Travel Technology, and seemingly more than one facility so equipped. Now the great thing about Time Travel, is that once you have it in the present, you can guarantee the know how exists into the Future, simply by sending people there with the plans. Once in the Future, you can gather various pieces of intel, like I dunno, the key to your final victory, important acts etc. Intel gathered, you either hot foot it to your nearest Time Travel Facility, or if somehow the Technology has been lost, go and build one, thus returning you to your present. Armed with the Intel. At this point, you know literally what needs to happen, and you set about achieving it.

So Skynet knows who Connor's father is, and captures him, knowing Connor will come to rescue him. Now this ensures that Connor, and his would be Father, are both safely out of harms way whilst Skynet reveals it's trap for Resistance (The signal, lighting up their command posts like Christmas Trees). So, Connor safe, Reese safe, Resistance Command wiped out, neatly allowing Connor to fulfil his necessary destiny and become the Leader of the Resistance. This also leads in that the various Terminators sent back to 'terminate' Connor were clearly programmed to fail in this task, their true job being to ensure the right things are in the right places at the right time to lead to Skynets birth.

There you go, sewn up tighter than a Duck's arse.

Oh, and there is of course the possibility of the Resistance sending people to gather Intel from the Future as well This is true, but Skynet has the greater organisation here, and access to seemingly multiple Time Travel Facilities. Thus, should the Resistance bung someone into the future, Skynet can use it's greater resources to find their point of arrival, and have a few dozen Terminators awaiting them, scuppering pretty much any and all Resistance attempts to gather Intel from the Future. They are blind, Skynet is not.

Frazzled wrote:
So instead of being Captain Queeg, why doesn't he just go to Rumulus, show them the awesome ship and have Romulus deal with the supernova, or better yet the technology on the mining ship to give the Romulan Star Empire a real kick in the pants to take over the quadrant? It was a good movie, but I didn't understand any of it.

Actually, I just watched it today, and I have an answer to this. When Nero speaks to Pike he tells him that he plans to destroy every Federation planet because he believes that the only way Romulus can be free is if the Federation doesn't exist. Its an insane proposition, but Nero was supposed to be insane (like Ahtman said). Though maybe not so insane, as its pretty unlikely that he would be able to stop the supernova (who would believe star X would threaten to destroy the galaxy in 129 years?).

Also, he never seemed to really care about Romulus. It was more that he loved his family thaaaaat much.

Wow, that is one tight ass right tharr.

Makes a lot of sense really. If the terminators sent back to kill Connor were not programed to 'know' that they were actually on a mission to lead Connor, there is no reason why their 'demeanor' would not make sense. Just a few mindless drones, sent out to bring Skynet into fruition. At no time did Connor, or anyone for that matter, have the ability to actually change the outcome of the story.

I like it, cool concept Mad doc.

Give me enough Beer, and I are Temporal Genius!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why has not yet been revealed, but the theory is sound. After all, Skynet we know, has Time Travel Technology, and seemingly more than one facility so equipped. Now the great thing about Time Travel, is that once you have it in the present, you can guarantee the know how exists into the Future, simply by sending people there with the plans. Once in the Future, you can gather various pieces of intel, like I dunno, the key to your final victory, important acts etc. Intel gathered, you either hot foot it to your nearest Time Travel Facility, or if somehow the Technology has been lost, go and build one, thus returning you to your present. Armed with the Intel. At this point, you know literally what needs to happen, and you set about achieving it.

Then you run into the Dr. Manhattan/Leto II prescience paradox. Basically, if Skynet knows it will lose, then it will lose. There is no changing it because any potential maneuver through time will have been accounted for by the first.

The one ontological escape is a postulate with respect to the choice of one's eventual reality among many potential realities. Basically, every foray through time simply adds more information to an individual consciousness which permits it to ensure that it is possibility X where X is optimum (provided we're not thinking in terms of determinism).

In my view these kind of things are not true plot holes, they are demands of the dramatic structure. A willing suspension of disbelief is needed to watch most of those kind of movies, especially SF/Fantasy which is inferently unrealistic.

A true plot hole is something like a situation in which a character acts on the basis of knowledge they haven't got, or a continuity error which ought to affect the plot but doesn't.

Talking about time travel, a classic solution in project management when a project has gone really badly off schedule is to deposit £1 in a bank account to set up a trust fund to start a project to research time travel, with the objective of going back to the start of your original failed project and beginning it again.

Lastly, regarding the use of mounted forces in Avatar, this book http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/mounted/index.htm shows that well handled armour and airmobile forces can be very useful in supposedly unsuitable terrain and weather.

dogma wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why has not yet been revealed, but the theory is sound. After all, Skynet we know, has Time Travel Technology, and seemingly more than one facility so equipped. Now the great thing about Time Travel, is that once you have it in the present, you can guarantee the know how exists into the Future, simply by sending people there with the plans. Once in the Future, you can gather various pieces of intel, like I dunno, the key to your final victory, important acts etc. Intel gathered, you either hot foot it to your nearest Time Travel Facility, or if somehow the Technology has been lost, go and build one, thus returning you to your present. Armed with the Intel. At this point, you know literally what needs to happen, and you set about achieving it.

Then you run into the Dr. Manhattan/Leto II prescience paradox. Basically, if Skynet knows it will lose, then it will lose. There is no changing it because any potential maneuver through time will have been accounted for by the first.

The one ontological escape is a postulate with respect to the choice of one's eventual reality among many potential realities. Basically, every foray through time simply adds more information to an individual consciousness which permits it to ensure that it is possibility X where X is optimum (provided we're not thinking in terms of determinism).

So we assume Skynet knows it is going to win, and John Connor may well play some key role in this. Quite what this is I dunno, as there are a variety of possibilities. Or of course, it could just be it needs John Connor to ensure it's own existence, as it would appear that the events of T3 are now canon, meaning that unless it was a lie, the T-800 in that one was captured after bumping off Connor. Can't quite work out why it would lie though, unless it was as some kind of motivation for Connor?

dogma wrote:
Then you run into the Dr. Manhattan/Leto II prescience paradox. Basically, if Skynet knows it will lose, then it will lose. There is no changing it because any potential maneuver through time will have been accounted for by the first.

If all Skynet was trying to achieve was it's conception, and initial expansion, then this doesn't even matter. To a construct that can choose between not being in the first place, and the lesser of the two evils (fighting Connor later); it is not beyond comprehension what would be chosen on average. It is quite possible, as you indicate in the rest of your post, that Skynet is simply trying to work the odds of conceivable future realities. Skynet may not have one clue about how the outcome of the entire story plays out.

Connor could be the very reason that Skynet came to be in the first place... somehow.