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ph34r wrote:Alright, so WD is made up of two things: advertisement and useful content. If you are saying that the useful content is advertisement, then what does that make the advertisement?

The content wasn't advertisement per se, but rather a marketing trick to get people to buy more books/magazines. Fortunately, GW seems to have renounced that particular ploy. I think all the jokes and stuff finally caught up with them.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was the least advertisementy thing WD ever had

I think the articles about converting your own terrain were less "advertisementy," personally.

ph34r wrote:If you were subcscribed to WD you basically didn't have to buy the supplement.

That's... not good? Having to choose between buying many issues of White Dwarf or buying a supplement that contained collected WD articles is pretty bad. You shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and Codices. To clarify, I'm not complaining about fluff being in White Dwarf, and in fact I support that. The issue is that official rules should not be provided in White Dwarf, unless they are freely distributed by some other means.

my $0.02 (a guess)... BA will get plastic kit for the death company that will include enough do-dads to make about 500 points of regular troops. There will also be a vehicle upgrade sprue to make the Baal pred and dread. Shelf space is the key for GW, which is why we've seen so many splash releases lately (stocked for release then direct only). Anything that combines with the smurf kits that they stock anyway is what they want. Look at space wolves... two plastic kits, a battle force and one boxed character and the rest are blisters or existing plastic kits.

So, first wave will be a kit for plastic death company/assault marines, plastic vehicle upgrades, a battleforce, some metal unique characters.

Fetterkey wrote:

ph34r wrote:Alright, so WD is made up of two things: advertisement and useful content. If you are saying that the useful content is advertisement, then what does that make the advertisement?

The content wasn't advertisement per se, but rather a marketing trick to get people to buy more books/magazines. Fortunately, GW seems to have renounced that particular ploy. I think all the jokes and stuff finally caught up with them.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was the least advertisementy thing WD ever had

I think the articles about converting your own terrain were less "advertisementy," personally.

ph34r wrote:If you were subcscribed to WD you basically didn't have to buy the supplement.

That's... not good? Having to choose between buying many issues of White Dwarf or buying a supplement that contained collected WD articles is pretty bad. You shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and Codices. To clarify, I'm not complaining about fluff being in White Dwarf, and in fact I support that. The issue is that official rules should not be provided in White Dwarf, unless they are freely distributed by some other means.

I never heard any joke about Chapter Approved. Chapter Approved was one of the best things that GW ever did. Just because you loathe 3rd edition and all its variant lists does not mean that everyone hated chapter approved, or in fact any of the things that you are suggesting. The converting your own terrain articles most often included bits and pieces that transformed the terrain from "meh" to "good" that were found in GW kits. If I had to choose which is more free, from learning how to make terrain using GW plastic bits and rules that are 100% free, there really is no comparison.
The "you shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and codices" is not a universal view, the same as your silly view of "if it's [technically] in the game, do it".

dienekes96 wrote:I bet GW defines a "real" army as one that SELLS and makes back the investment within a quarter. And I bet the BA do that. Moreso than some of the armies you consider "real".

Translation:

"I'm a Space Marine player, and I think GW should just focus 100% on Space Marine releases instead of wasting their time on lame-ass armies (or even game systems) that no one buys anyway. MARINES!"

Sorry. It just gets frustrating seeing this brought up over and over though...honestly, would you be happy if they did nothing but Marines? Do you think that would be best for the company?

My guess....

A Death Company/Honour Guard box that is lik $30 USD for 5 Marines. With a bunch of stuff.
A regular Space Marine Tactical (Space Wolf style) box with options for Tac Marines and other stuff.
A plastic Baal Predator with an OC engine. Which can be used on Rhinos if you bits buy it from them or another site. Given some late GW plastic vehicle trends I think.


.........and maybe a Furioso pack.

One Hero redo (Mephiston) and they introduce new ones like Space Wolves.

Judging from what they have done before.

ph34r wrote:I never heard any joke about Chapter Approved.

There are TONS of jokes about TFG-types springing rules from "special supplements" and stuff on people.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was one of the best things that GW ever did. Just because you loathe 3rd edition and all its variant lists does not mean that everyone hated chapter approved, or in fact any of the things that you are suggesting.

I like variant lists, or at least balanced variant lists, but not the business model that GW was using to distribute them. I don't loathe 3rd edition, but I, like most, think 5th edition is better.

ph34r wrote:The "you shouldn't have to buy anything besides the rulebook and codices" is not a universal view, the same as your silly view of "if it's [technically] in the game, do it".

Not sure what the second part is about, since it's both off-topic and false, at least as it pertains to 40k. "If it's in the game, it's legit" only works when the game itself is well-made. As for the first, I don't know anyone who would seriously advocate increasing barriers to entry and decreasing transparency. It's OK to be nostalgic, but Chapter Approved is dead and gone, and IMO losing it improved the state of 40k as whole.

thnk this thread should be in the discussions area not rumor or news xD

Fetterkey wrote:There are TONS of jokes about TFG-types springing rules from "special supplements" and stuff on people.

Yeah... that being just as much of a problem as not bringing ones codex and making up rules. 40k players are not incapable of bringing one more rulebook, and if you want to use a rule you bring the rulebook for it. Chapter approved was only a positive, and provided diversity. If your opponent is making up rules and claiming that they are in something, it shouldn't matter if that book is called "Chapter Approved" or "Codex XYZ Marines".

I like variant lists, or at least balanced variant lists, but not the business model that GW was using to distribute them. I don't loathe 3rd edition, but I, like most, think 5th edition is better.

A business model of "buy one more codex for dozens of optional rules or if you subscribe to a magazine get them for free"? I have no problems with this. What is wrong with this business model? Is it so much more than what is going on now, aka the exact same thing, but with less options, and without any possibility of getting rules for free? To me the possibility of getting something for free if you have a subscription or being given the option to just buy it normally is a good thing.

I don't know anyone who would seriously advocate increasing barriers to entry and decreasing transparency. It's OK to be nostalgic, but Chapter Approved is dead and gone, and IMO losing it improved the state of 40k as whole.

Thanks for making it so easy for me to show you how you are wrong: Chapter Approved was not a barrier to entry. It was optional and you could get along just fine without it. If you think that you have a valid argument in saying that Chapter Approved would decrease transparency too much, then I can just as easily say "Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars are too confusing and reduce transparency". So what is the key difference for you here? Both Chapter Approved and "Codex Series: rainbow of space marines" are books that contain variant rules for space marines. I suppose Chapter Approved also contained rules for non-SM armies, that must be a big no-no. And the models featured didn't always have models! How will we sell models that don't exist! [sarcasm] I for one agree with you, lets do away with anything that doesn't have a model and 2 month ad campaign tied to it! [/sarcasm]
Chapter Approved also had FAQs in it. For every army. I wonder, what decreases transparency more? Having variant armies that don't get their own codex, model range, and holiday? Or... not having FAQs.
In conclusion, Chapter Approved does not decrease transparency but rather creates transparency, and is no more of a barrier to entry than any other Codex, ever.

ph34r wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:There are TONS of jokes about TFG-types springing rules from "special supplements" and stuff on people.

Yeah... that being just as much of a problem as not bringing ones codex and making up rules. 40k players are not incapable of bringing one more rulebook, and if you want to use a rule you bring the rulebook for it. Chapter approved was only a positive, and provided diversity. If your opponent is making up rules and claiming that they are in something, it shouldn't matter if that book is called "Chapter Approved" or "Codex XYZ Marines".

Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

ph34r wrote:A business model of "buy one more codex for dozens of optional rules or if you subscribe to a magazine get them for free"? I have no problems with this. What is wrong with this business model? Is it so much more than what is going on now, aka the exact same thing, but with less options, and without any possibility of getting rules for free? To me the possibility of getting something for free if you have a subscription or being given the option to just buy it normally is a good thing.

Index Astartes articles were often tournament-legal (the rules varied from event to event, which only adds to the confusion) and not at all free. Most people don't have subscriptions to White Dwarf; those that do aren't getting the information "for free," they're getting it as part of the price they paid for White Dwarf. People should have to buy as few books as possible. Ideally, there would only be one book, but as 3rd edition showed, that leads to insufficient detail. A pendulum swing then threw everything for a loop, with Imperial Armor books, campaign books, Chapter Approved material, Index Astartes material, and in some cases even Citadel Journal articles providing tons of confusing variants. This made it extremely difficult for someone to understand the rules or know the full range of options that were available, especially since the availability of some items varied from event to event and store to store. The current system is a decent balance between detail and confusion.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved was not a barrier to entry. It was optional and you could get along just fine without it.

Chapter Approved was a horrible mix of nonoptional errata, optional rules, and "recommended optional" rules. As mentioned before, different events used different rules, which led to further problems as to what was and wasn't optional. In any case, fundamental changes (Terminators getting their 5+ invulnerable saves, for example) were sometimes conveyed via Chapter Approved, which is obviously bad. In order to use Terminators "correctly," you would have had to have both Codex: Space Marines and a copy of the Chapter Approved article in question. This made Chapter Approved important even if you weren't using a variant list that relied on it, which only caused problems.

ph34r wrote:If you think that you have a valid argument in saying that Chapter Approved would decrease transparency too much, then I can just as easily say "Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars are too confusing and reduce transparency".

You would be correct in saying that. There are serious issues with having many Codices that can represent the same or similar units that have different stats, rules, etc. At the very least, all Space Marine codices should have equivalent wargear (Typhoon launchers, Cyclone launchers, storm shields, Apothecaries, etc.). Similarly, Inquisition Chimeras should be the same as IG Chimeras. The current system *is* confusing and reduces transparency, but the alternative (one big book) causes armies to be too similar. As mentioned earlier, the current system represents a balance from the early 3rd "one book only" blandness and the later "tons of supplements" craziness.

ph34r wrote:So what is the key difference for you here? Both Chapter Approved and "Codex Series: rainbow of space marines" are books that contain variant rules for space marines.

Codices don't require other books, aren't distributed throughout various issues of White Dwarf (with the exception of the "get you by" list for the Blood Angels, which is also distributed for free on the GW website and will thankfully be superseded soon), generally come in the form of highly visible splash releases, are universally accepted at tournaments (except the BoLSCon ally rules silliness), are practically guaranteed to be in stock at a shop if there's a dispute, etc. All these factors lead to people being generally familiar with all Codex lists, with the possible exception of the Dark Eldar. If I walk into a shop and ask "what about X army," there'll likely be someone there who will know what X plays like, if not someone who has played them before.

ph34r wrote:Chapter Approved also had FAQs in it. For every army. I wonder, what decreases transparency more? Having variant armies that don't get their own codex, model range, and holiday? Or... not having FAQs.

This argument is a blatant false dilemma. GW currently has FAQs and doesn't have Chapter Approved, which is, IMO, as it should be.

Fetterkey wrote:Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

Right or wrong the burden of bringing rules is on the person that wants to use them. My previous statements still stand and you have not refuted them at all.

Index Astartes articles were often tournament-legal (the rules varied from event to event, which only adds to the confusion) and not at all free. Most people don't have subscriptions to White Dwarf; those that do aren't getting the information "for free," they're getting it as part of the price they paid for White Dwarf. People should have to buy as few books as possible. Ideally, there would only be one book, but as 3rd edition showed, that leads to insufficient detail. A pendulum swing then threw everything for a loop, with Imperial Armor books, campaign books, Chapter Approved material, Index Astartes material, and in some cases even Citadel Journal articles providing tons of confusing variants. This made it extremely difficult for someone to understand the rules or know the full range of options that were available, especially since the availability of some items varied from event to event and store to store. The current system is a decent balance between detail and confusion.

Who cares? Warhammer isn't for 5 year olds. The fact that you *might* want to use rules from something other than two books is not an issue.
If you *want* to use the rules then you *can*, in which case you *bring your rules*. Real. Simple. If you don't have white dwarf then you can buy the information for free. It is not the fault of variant books that tournaments had different rules (protip: every tournament has different rules). As for your next statement, I know you all too well and it is clear to me that you just wanted to use the phrase "Pendulum Swing" which does not apply at all in this situation.

Chapter Approved was a horrible mix of nonoptional errata, optional rules, and "recommended optional" rules. As mentioned before, different events used different rules, which led to further problems as to what was and wasn't optional. In any case, fundamental changes (Terminators getting their 5+ invulnerable saves, for example) were sometimes conveyed via Chapter Approved, which is obviously bad. In order to use Terminators "correctly," you would have had to have both Codex: Space Marines and a copy of the Chapter Approved article in question. This made Chapter Approved important even if you weren't using a variant list that relied on it, which only caused problems.

3rd edition was a huge change from 2nd. Erratas were necessary for the rules to work correctly. Oh boo hoo, they are non optional. Erratas and FAQs should not be optional. In any case, book updates were also available online with the FAQs, so if you just wanted updates for your book you did not need Chapter Approved.

You would be correct in saying that. There are serious issues with having many Codices that can represent the same or similar units that have different stats, rules, etc. At the very least, all Space Marine codices should have equivalent wargear (Typhoon launchers, Cyclone launchers, storm shields, Apothecaries, etc.). Similarly, Inquisition Chimeras should be the same as IG Chimeras. The current system *is* confusing and reduces transparency, but the alternative (one big book) causes armies to be too similar. As mentioned earlier, the current system represents a balance from the early 3rd "one book only" blandness and the later "tons of supplements" craziness.

Well yes, of course SM should have consistent wargear. It isn't too confusing though. I don't see the population up in arms about how complicated it is to have 5 books that all feature Space Marines.

Codices don't require other books, aren't distributed throughout various issues of White Dwarf (with the exception of the "get you by" list for the Blood Angels, which is also distributed for free on the GW website and will thankfully be superseded soon), generally come in the form of highly visible splash releases, are universally accepted at tournaments (except the BoLSCon ally rules silliness), are practically guaranteed to be in stock at a shop if there's a dispute, etc. All these factors lead to people being generally familiar with all Codex lists, with the possible exception of the Dark Eldar. If I walk into a shop and ask "what about X army," there'll likely be someone there who will know what X plays like, if not someone who has played them before.

If the current books had giant errors and problems with them they would require other books. Chapter Approved did not change Codexes for no reason, it changed them for a good reason: they needed fixing. Stop bringing up the "distributed through white dwarf oh god how will you ever track it down", as stores had recent issues of WD and non-recent issues were in books called... Chapter Approved. Having to buy a $25 book on top of a $40 book isn't bad at all, considering how long 3rd edition lasted and how much the 5e book costs. Who cares if a variant army is slightly less well known as a "core" army? That is not a bad thing.

This argument is a blatant false dilemma. GW currently has FAQs and doesn't have Chapter Approved, which is, IMO, as it should be.

Chapter Approved fixed books with errata and FAQs. Current GW FAQs are terrible and frequently don't fix issues. Sure, GW has FAQs, but GW says that they are optional, and even if they weren't optional they are insufficient, which is just terrible.

I'd be gutted if a new BA kit came out because ive just finished a complete battle company using the vanilla kits.
Mephiston could definitely do with a re-sculpt the model has been floating about in it's current form for about 15 years now.
A decent Death Company Dreadnought kit is needed as well as more options for the Death Company itself.
The BA haven't had a proper codex since codex angels of death for second edition. Looking forward to getting some more of their history back into the game.

Angels of Death isn't a proper codex, IMO. I'm thumbing through it right now, and rulewise it actually sucks. BA didn't have any chapter-specific rules at all. They had death company and 5 special characters, that's it. And in order to get the rules for those six entries you had to buy a 120 page book that also included codex DA.

But then again, the fluff rocked hard.

As for the Chapter Approved debate: 1. Get a hold of WD 255. 2. Open it on page 44. 3. Watch in awe as Pete Haines gives you 6 pages of advanced formulaes for creating Tyranid superheavies.

For me, this is what the hobby is about. The stuff you could make with these optional rules were horribly broken, but they served as a guideline for players' own creativity. The rules weren't meant for tournament play, but for fun.

CA also served as a creative ferment for GW itself - One of Haines example beasts is the Trygon, which didn't get a codex entry until now.

I know angels of death was a poor showing by way of rules but since then the only codex produced was a massive 25 pages with 0 history to the chapter within. After that the only thing to come out was the PDF version which again gave very few options no wargear and 0 history for a 1st founding chapter.

Agreed on the rules.

The PDF did three things right:
1. Make a new way of forming a DC unit that didn't piss off every other player.

2. Stopped making super charged engines = bombs. Good times that.

3. Assaulters as troops goes with the fluff of BA being a very assault oriented army.

However, it made the list horrible to play in many other ways.

1. Very few options- every unit started looking like every other unit. Since some of those options weren't worth the points you had even fewer choices. Some units had almost no options, making them completely dull.

2. VERY inflexible unit structure. You took either 5 or 10 man units. 10 man units kept heroes from being able to join mechanized units unless you were silly in running a half strengthed squad into battle. Some named characters can't take jump packs and were left with very few transport options. This same slowed 5/10 purchasing scheme made it hard to build a list you wanted because you'd find it very difficult to chop out points if you went over. Normally you could dump out 1-2 marines in a squad and be under your point cap, but here... no. You had to dump out an entire unit and take something you didn't want. Horrible.

3. No reason for dumping some chapter specific hero options like Sanquinary High Priests. They all evaporated for no reason. Yet magically the Sanquinary Priests from the Honor Guard were left in. Huh. It would be like Interigator Chaplins just being removed from the DA chapter and nothing said about it. Too bad I guess.

4. Taking away Furious Charge and not allowing it to be purchased back. What, did the whole chapter suddenly get tired? They didn't seem to have problems giving FC to the orks, so I don't know why they didn't AT LEAST give an option to pay for it. If you've been know for something for years, it makes NO sense to just have it cut out.

5. 5 man terminator squads? Whatever. Again, an arbitrary change that wasn't based on chapter background that would lead to a shortage of Terminator Suits.

I could go on about saying that some units were absolutely not worth taking due to point costs, but I think every army has some of those, so I'll leave it at that.

I don't think DC will get a plastic kit. Any sort of elite choice is usually a metal option. Vanguard, Sternguard, Sword Brethren, Legion of the Damned, Veterans (DA or otherwise), etc. I think doubly so since it's chapter specific. Terminators and dreadnoughts buck this trend because they can be used across multiple chapters.

StarGate wrote:LIke i said there going too use the termies from Space hulk as the new blood angels termies watch....

Aaaargh!....

Moopy wrote:...
3. Assaulters as troops goes with the fluff of BA being a very assault oriented army.
...

I think this is likely to become something that is tied to a specific special character. Or in the very least something like "if the captain is equipped with a jump pack assault marine squads maybe taken as troops," type thing. I see it as being allowed but with the expectation that the theme permeates the list.

Moopy wrote:
I don't think DC will get a plastic kit. Any sort of elite choice is usually a metal option. Vanguard, Sternguard, Sword Brethren, Legion of the Damned, Veterans (DA or otherwise), etc. I think doubly so since it's chapter specific. Terminators and dreadnoughts buck this trend because they can be used across multiple chapters.

I think this will hinge on whether GW decides to do anything new with DC or BA elite choices. I think BA will recieve a Vanguard type elite unit, those will be metal. If GW has an elite unit like that they'll have little need to make DC metal. DC can easily be done like Dark Angel veterans as plastic add-ons from a basic BA sprue.

bhsman wrote:As for characters, I can see them keeping Dante, Corbulo, and maybe even Tycho as they are, but Mephiston is starting to show his age and Lemartes is just, well, bad, but realistically I'm expecting only Lemmy to get a resculpt if any.

Ragnar
Ulrik
Logan Grimnar
Abaddon
All the Phoenix Lords
Eldrad
The list goes on ...

Alpharius wrote:Surely Space Marines riding Giant Bats, right?

Great! I could use them for a Night Lords army. If they had rules.

reds8n wrote:Plastic Baneblade is for Apoc. only, I'd imagine a plastic Thunderhawk, if such a thing existed which it doesn't and won't for quite some time IMO, would also be apoc. only I would think/hope.

Red is usually right when it comes to this sort of thing so my response to this: damn. But I want one

ph34r wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Well, no, because TFG could in some cases actually be right. Besides, when that "book" is some random White Dwarf issue that your shop doesn't even carry, it can be difficult to verify what's going on.

Right or wrong the burden of bringing rules is on the person that wants to use them. My previous statements still stand and you have not refuted them at all.

Are we reading the same thread?

ph34r wrote:If you don't have white dwarf then you can buy the information for free.

What?

ph34r wrote:It is not the fault of variant books that tournaments had different rules (protip: every tournament has different rules).

Yes, but they shouldn't, and variant books contribute to that problem. Here are the sample rules from a tournament way back in the day-- this doesn't cover scoring, judging, or anything, just the basic rules that the game is played by:

• You must create an army of no more than 1,850 points with one Standard Force Organization Chart.
• Chapter Approved, Index Astartes, and Imperial Armour books will be in use with the following exceptions. Rules marked “Optional” or "Trial" will not be in use.
• Specific zone fighting rules will not be in effect - including Jungle fighting and City fighting.
• The following publications and articles will be in use:
• THE NEW ASSAULT RULES LOCATED IN CHAPTER APPROVED 2003 WILL BE USED IN THE TOURNAMENT.
• All released codices
• Chapter Approved Annual 2003 (except) the following articles:
Minor Psyker Powers
• The Chapter Approved Book (except) the following articles:
Fielding a Army of Death (Death Company army)
Imperial Guard Armoured Company
Of Roads, Craters and Other Things
Tyranid Monstrosities
Vehicle Design Rules
Necrons
• Index Astartes I & II
• Imperial Armour I & II except the following:
No super heavies
No flyers
• White Dwarf Articles:
248- Land Raider Crusader
261- Index Astartes, Iron Hands
263- Index Astartes, Ultramarines (Tyranid Hunter Squad)
269- Speed Freeks Warboss
273- Index Astartes, Salamanders
274- Chapter Approved, Priestly Delegations
274- Index Astartes, Raven Guard
275- Chapter Approved, Necron Q&A
275- Chapter Approved, The Cursed Founding
• Anything not mentioned or presented here is not legal for Tournament play.
• You may use Special Characters as long as they meet the specified requirements (i.e., you may not use a special character that is restricted to armies over 3,000 points or under 1,500 points if the tournament you are playing is using 1,700-point armies!).
•Chapter Approved rules clarifications and Q&A appearing in White Dwarf are in use.


Here are the sample rules from a modern tournament:

-Armies will consist of 1850 points using a standard force organization chart.
-The Warhammer 40,000 5th Edition Rules will be used.
-The AdeptiCon INAT FAQ will be used (Updated 03.19.09).
-All 40K Invitational army lists must follow the 40K Championships section of the AdeptiCon 2009 40K Army List rules. (read: all GW Codices are legal)
-Forge World/Imperial Armor units are not allowed in the 40K Invitational, however players may still use their Forge World models to represent a unit from their codex.
-Individual units that may have multiple rules versions will follow the rules presented in that army's codex. Yes, this means a Black Templar Land Raider will function differently than a standard -Space Marine Land Raider. Please take the time to review the relevant GW/Adepticon FAQ's for clarifications.
-Special/Unique/Named Characters may be fielded, provided their individual rules allow them to be used in armies of 1,850 pts or less.


It's fairly obvious which is less confusing.

ph34r wrote:As for your next statement, I know you all too well and it is clear to me that you just wanted to use the phrase "Pendulum Swing" which does not apply at all in this situation.

Actually, it does. At the start of 3rd edition, everything was so different from 2nd that all the army lists had to be revised, so every army (except Necrons) had a bare-bones army list at the back of the main rulebook. A lot of people (rightfully) complained, because those army lists were extremely sparse. GW then went too far in the other direction, releasing tons of variant lists, mini-Codices, etc. This shift from one extreme to another represents what is commonly referred to as "pendulum swing."

ph34r wrote:3rd edition was a huge change from 2nd. Erratas were necessary for the rules to work correctly. Oh boo hoo, they are non optional. Erratas and FAQs should not be optional. In any case, book updates were also available online with the FAQs, so if you just wanted updates for your book you did not need Chapter Approved.

The issue is not that the erratas/FAQs weren't optional, the issue is that nonoptional content was mixed in with optional content. The second part, re: updates being online, is only partially true at best. I'm pretty sure not everything was originally available online, since I distinctly remember finding out about Crux Terminatus through the original 3rd edition Chapter Approved compilation, but that was way back in the day and my memory isn't all that good. I do know, however, that I have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version. An update PDF was available for a time, but was later removed.

ph34r wrote:If the current books had giant errors and problems with them they would require other books. Chapter Approved did not change Codexes for no reason, it changed them for a good reason: they needed fixing. Stop bringing up the "distributed through white dwarf oh god how will you ever track it down", as stores had recent issues of WD and non-recent issues were in books called... Chapter Approved. Having to buy a $25 book on top of a $40 book isn't bad at all, considering how long 3rd edition lasted and how much the 5e book costs. Who cares if a variant army is slightly less well known as a "core" army? That is not a bad thing.

The 5th edition rulebook costs about 20 bucks, thanks to the glory that is Black Reach. This is a very good thing. Barriers to entry have never been lower, except during the bad old days of early 3rd, where the fact that you could know everything with one book was sadly negated by the fact that everything was pretty much the same.

Kveldulv wrote:As for the Chapter Approved debate: 1. Get a hold of WD 255. 2. Open it on page 44. 3. Watch in awe as Pete Haines gives you 6 pages of advanced formulaes for creating Tyranid superheavies.

For me, this is what the hobby is about. The stuff you could make with these optional rules were horribly broken, but they served as a guideline for players' own creativity. The rules weren't meant for tournament play, but for fun.

I liked all the crazy stuff in Chapter Approved (especially the VDR), but having that optional fun/silly content mixed in with nonoptional content is confusing and a bad idea from a design perspective.

Fetterkey wrote:I do know, however, have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version.

Are you saying that my Codex: Dark Eldar from early 1999 is... outdated?!?

Kveldulv wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I do know, however, have the original Codex: Dark Eldar. When this Codex got revised, the new rules were published in Chapter Approved, and the Codex was then reprinted. People with the old version of Codex could either use that with the Chapter Approved article or get the new version.

Are you saying that my Codex: Dark Eldar from early 1999 is... outdated?!?

lol, your avatar matches your post.


the problem with the 3rd edition chapter approved (i skipped 4th ed so can't comment about that) was that they completely changed the "official" stance midway through the edition. in the beginning of the articles, it specifically said that they were all completely legit and as legal as codices and didn't need an opponent's permission; a few years later it changed to the same BS that they write for FAQs and all of a sudden you needed permission. were some of the lists broken? you bet some were but not any more or less after the stuff became unofficial. heck, they even changed how "official" the VDR rules were within 3 months of publishing them because they didn't playtest them (you used to be able to build an ork trukk identical to the codex for 40% less points). ultimately, i think they did more good than harm and broadened the available armies to play against in the days before every SM chapter had their own codex.

also, does this entire thread contain a single bit of news or even one real rumor? i'd have asked it be moved but almost every mod posted on the first page and didn't seem to have a problem with it being here, lol.

(And now a message from an alternate universe...)

Now I know a lot of people have been complaining about the new codex that's coming out. They say it's not needed, that the differences between this army and the others does not justify a full codex. They say it's just the same as the vanilla codex but painted red.

These people are wrong.

First of all they forget that the fluff has long-established that Praetorians are the best bayonette fighters in the Imperium which was reflected in the 3rd edition Praetorian Codex but dropped in that crappy PDF Praetorian Codex GW did for 4th edition. Also only Praetorians have the Stiff Upper Lip rule and Beefeater squads.

Plus the Victoria-Patten Leman Russ and Edwardian-Pattern sentinels are unique vehicles that right now you can only get in crappy metal-plastic hybrid kits. We need them in plastic.

Vanilla Guard, Catachans, Death Korps, Cadians and Praetorians are very different armies with their own histories, fighting styles and rules. You can't just lump them into one book like GW does with Space Marines (who are basically the same models painted different colors).

Right now 4 of those armies have a codex but Praetorians have to use a crappy PDF with no fluff in it. Plus the Death Korps and Catachan books are from 4th edition and are showing their age. Maybe after all the books are updated to 5th edition then we can talk about doing a codex for some crazy Marine sub-list but for now GW has to focus on the unique armies.

But in essence, Praetorians, Death Korps, and Catachans are the same army, they just have different appearances.

Space Marine chapters have their own histories, fighting styles and rules. Why not do the same for them!?

It seems to me that you are complaining that Marines are getting another codex, rather than some other "more deserving" army. I understand, there are codexes in absolute need of a new book, but Blood Angels could use a new codex as well.

I mean, Praetorians are just Cadians with fancy clothes and stiff upper lips. Catachans are just Cadians with huge muscles. Where's the line drawn?

This thread makes me want to kill myself.

Scottywan82 wrote:This thread makes me want to kill myself.

I already did..but FML I rolled a 4 on WBB

Looks like my rendition of Kyoto Kid's OP from the first page still proves accurate.

And the 2009 sarcasm detection fail award goes to... Cryonicleech!

(The overkill award goes to Scottywan82)

Cryonicleech wrote:But in essence, Praetorians, Death Korps, and Catachans are the same army, they just have different appearances.

Space Marine chapters have their own histories, fighting styles and rules. Why not do the same for them!?

It seems to me that you are complaining that Marines are getting another codex, rather than some other "more deserving" army. I understand, there are codexes in absolute need of a new book, but Blood Angels could use a new codex as well.

I mean, Praetorians are just Cadians with fancy clothes and stiff upper lips. Catachans are just Cadians with huge muscles. Where's the line drawn?

Well Catachans had a 6+ save and WS4, so obviously they deserve a codex more than BAs who have the same save and WS as vanilla marines.

Kveldulv wrote:And the 2009 sarcasm detection fail award goes to... Cryonicleech!

(The overkill award goes to Scottywan82)

I'd like to thank the Academy, and my mom, and Jesus,



Damn you Kanye!

That is obviously fake as Kanye only speaks and types IN ALL CAPS!!!!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:(And now a message from an alternate universe...)

Now I know a lot of people have been complaining about the new codex that's coming out. They say it's not needed, that the differences between this army and the others does not justify a full codex. They say it's just the same as the vanilla codex but painted red.

These people are wrong.

First of all they forget that the fluff has long-established that Praetorians are the best bayonette fighters in the Imperium which was reflected in the 3rd edition Praetorian Codex but dropped in that crappy PDF Praetorian Codex GW did for 4th edition. Also only Praetorians have the Stiff Upper Lip rule and Beefeater squads.

Plus the Victoria-Patten Leman Russ and Edwardian-Pattern sentinels are unique vehicles that right now you can only get in crappy metal-plastic hybrid kits. We need them in plastic.

Vanilla Guard, Catachans, Death Korps, Cadians and Praetorians are very different armies with their own histories, fighting styles and rules. You can't just lump them into one book like GW does with Space Marines (who are basically the same models painted different colors).

Right now 4 of those armies have a codex but Praetorians have to use a crappy PDF with no fluff in it. Plus the Death Korps and Catachan books are from 4th edition and are showing their age. Maybe after all the books are updated to 5th edition then we can talk about doing a codex for some crazy Marine sub-list but for now GW has to focus on the unique armies.

EXALT!