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@Dogma, as a personal trainer, you have i am sure been around all sorts of steroids, "special" shakes, protein this and that, and been privy to all the "latest tech" in body building and what not. Now, even before the great baseball steroid era, we all knew or familiar with the term "'Roid Rage"?? and it was a proven fact that 'roids over time effect the male genitals i.e. it stops working. so that being said... if you want to have big muscles and a small "package" that will be your choice, and if you manage to do it legally, more power to you. Lots of steroids are illegal not just in sports. so like i said if you can legally do it, i would fight for your right to do so.. doesn't mean i have to like it.

Just a hypothetical.... would you give one of your clients steroids, if they asked for them, or would you recommend them, to a client who wants to get bigger, faster, stronger as FAST as possible?

The other issue is it skews the results in a big way. Whether they were illegl or not is irrelevant in this instance. His performance can't be measured by players in the 30s/40s/50s/60s because they did not have those drugs/hormones/Top Ramen noodle packages.

hcordes wrote:
Just a hypothetical.... would you give one of your clients steroids, if they asked for them, or would you recommend them, to a client who wants to get bigger, faster, stronger as FAST as possible?

I'd discuss it with them, and if I thought they knew what they were getting into I would refer them to a doctor who would have his own screening process. As a rule I don't deal directly in regulated substances, but I'd prefer that people at least make educated decisions about their health. Honestly, if getting big is all someone wants to do, there are cheaper methods that have effects similar to those of steroids; though those methods generally take longer, and produce slightly different results (less lean muscle mass).

Isn't that er, aiding and abetting the use or illegal substances or such?

Name a sport without steroid use at its highest levels and I'll call you a liar. Chose whether or not steroids precludes people from the hall of fame already, and just stick by the decision. It's something that should have been decided the last few times it came up.

Frazzled wrote:Isn't that er, aiding and abetting the use or illegal substances or such?

Nope. Doctors can prescribe steroids (almost) as they wish. I'm not liable for dispensing information pertaining to the distribution of a controlled substance through legal channels. Its essentially the same principle as that which guides a psychologist, or other non-medicating therapist, to refer patients to people who can medicate them.

ShumaGorath wrote:Name a sport without steroid use at its highest levels and I'll call you a liar.

Curling
Golf
Competitive Eating
Target and skeet Shooting
Bowling

Frazzled wrote:
Golf

Not so fast. Circumstantial, but still.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Isn't that er, aiding and abetting the use or illegal substances or such?

Nope. Doctors can prescribe steroids (almost) as they wish. I'm not liable for dispensing information pertaining to the distribution of a controlled substance through legal channels. Its essentially the same principle as that which guides a psychologist, or other non-medicating therapist, to refer patients to people who can medicate them.

But you're doing so for an illegal activity. As you've admitted, these types of substances are now illegal in most sports no?
Doctors themselves cannot prescrivbe drugs unless they are for a benefit. I'd bet good money prescribing steroids to bulk up is illegal or minimall unethical to the level of yanking their license.
But what do I know or care what they do. Want to roid up find by me. Just don't get uppity and try that roid rage nonsense.

Curling

Upper body intensive, no real non olympic regulatory system. Probably has steroid users.

Golf

Tiger woods took steroids.

Competitive Eating

Anabolic steroids.

Target and skeet Shooting

You've got me there! Though more for target than skeet, upper body strength helps quite a bit there (though not really enough for steroids to be semi mandatory).

Bowling

You kidding? I would be surprised if every professional bowler wasn't on steroids. The biceps on those guys are bigger than my car and the woman all have jawlines you could cut diamonds with.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Golf

Not so fast. Circumstantial, but still.

Noooooo!!!!
On the positive I already have my hole in one and quite years ago. Hurray for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:
The biceps on those guys are bigger than my car and the woman all have jawlines you could cut diamonds with.

Yea but so are their bellies.

What about cricket and Synchronized swimming?

GG

generalgrog wrote:What about cricket and Synchronized swimming?

GG

Swimming might, its a very intensive regime normally. The elephants take the steroids in Crickett.

wasn't the point of this if McGuire should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame??? I still say no, regaurdless of steroids in our society as a whole.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Golf

Not so fast. Circumstantial, but still.

Noooooo!!!!
On the positive I already have my hole in one and quite years ago. Hurray for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:
The biceps on those guys are bigger than my car and the woman all have jawlines you could cut diamonds with.

Yea but so are their bellies.

Muscle building steroids don't make you thin, though they do cause hairloss at times (another strike against bowlers).

Frazzled wrote:The other issue is it skews the results in a big way. Whether they were illegl or not is irrelevant in this instance. His performance can't be measured by players in the 30s/40s/50s/60s because they did not have those drugs/hormones/Top Ramen noodle packages.

That's the real issue that baseball people care about. They could really care less about the morality of the inductees. Possible murder aside, Ty Cobb once stabbed a security guard. He also once jumped into the stands to assault a handicapped man who had yelled insults at him. But hey, he has the numbers and did it clean!

All this stuff about role models has absolutely NOTHING to do with the HOF. It's a completely unrelated issue.

hcordes wrote:wasn't the point of this if McGuire should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame??? I still say no, regaurdless of steroids in our society as a whole.

I say yes, if he's not going to commit seppuku then he should be in the Hall. They could even do an exhibit entitled "the history of roids." Start with babe Ruth and go to him along a timeline, noting new drugs and therapies along the way. At the end of it have a gorilla in a uniform with a big question mark above it.

All this stuff about role models has absolutely NOTHING to do with the HOF. It's a completely unrelated issue.

Professional athletes are and have always been terrible role models. They are typically unskilled, relatively unintelligent, and while definitely hard working their careers and lives amount to what is in essence throwing a ball or hitting someone. Even without the issue of steroids athletes have never been bastions of self control or decency, the great bambino was an alcohol rattled half dead wreck of a man and Michael jordan was known for being cocky and aggressive.

Michael Vick is back to playing football.

Frazzled wrote:

hcordes wrote:wasn't the point of this if McGuire should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame??? I still say no, regaurdless of steroids in our society as a whole.

I say yes, if he's not going to commit seppuku then he should be in the Hall. They could even do an exhibit entitled "the history of roids." Start with babe Ruth and go to him along a timeline, noting new drugs and therapies along the way. At the end of it have a gorilla in a uniform with a big question mark above it.

Frazz; you and I don't agree on much; but I like your thinking here.

Frazzled wrote:
But you're doing so for an illegal activity. As you've admitted, these types of substances are now illegal in most sports no?

Since I'm neither a professional, nor a collegiate athlete I can't incur any consequences for how my clients might use a substance a doctor I sent them to might provide. The rules of a game, or officiating body, are not the same as the law. Even the Congressional investigation had little to do with criminal allegations.

Frazzled wrote:
Doctors themselves cannot prescrivbe drugs unless they are for a benefit. I'd bet good money prescribing steroids to bulk up is illegal or minimall unethical to the level of yanking their license.

I'd probably consider it unethical under the classical Hippocratic oath, and were I a doctor I would not accept the liability under any circumstance. However, that's the doctor's decision. For all intents and purposes a client is asking me about steroids, and I'm sending him to a person qualified to dispense information. Whether or not the doctor writes a script is out of my hands.

"I'm not going to sell you any crack. You need to talk to Bob on the corner over there. Tell him Merle sent you."

Frazzled thinks to self "Where did I get the name Merle from? Thats pretty weird."

dogma wrote:

I'd probably consider it unethical under the classical Hippocratic oath, and were I a doctor I would not accept the liability under any circumstance. However, that's the doctor's decision. For all intents and purposes a client is asking me about steroids, and I'm sending him to a person qualified to dispense information. Whether or not the doctor writes a script is out of my hands.

this just seems like the wrong attitude. to me..... its like I'm gonna tell you that meth will make you wide awake for days at a time so you can get all your homework done and cram for tests, but if you go out and find a dealer thats your fault??? its a little bit on the "pass the buck" side of things,
"It wasn't my fault i was speeding officer, its the guy behind me. He was traveling too fast so i had to drive faster to keep him from rear-ending me."
"im not telling them to take steroids, or supplying them, but go see a doctor he can give them to you... as long as its your choice"
still think its silly
still think McGuire is silly
still think steroids are silly
begining to think this thread is silly

hcordes wrote:

dogma wrote:

I'd probably consider it unethical under the classical Hippocratic oath, and were I a doctor I would not accept the liability under any circumstance. However, that's the doctor's decision. For all intents and purposes a client is asking me about steroids, and I'm sending him to a person qualified to dispense information. Whether or not the doctor writes a script is out of my hands.

this just seems like the wrong attitude. to me..... its like I'm gonna tell you that meth will make you wide awake for days at a time so you can get all your homework done and cram for tests, but if you go out and find a dealer thats your fault??? its a little bit on the "pass the buck" side of things,
"It wasn't my fault i was speeding officer, its the guy behind me. He was traveling too fast so i had to drive faster to keep him from rear-ending me."
"im not telling them to take steroids, or supplying them, but go see a doctor he can give them to you... as long as its your choice"
still think its silly
still think McGuire is silly
still think steroids are silly
begining to think this thread is silly

Yea but how does Merle fit into all this? You still haven't answered that fundamental question.

dogma wrote:

Cane wrote:
Because its against the league's rules and they're cheaters. Not really a matter of whats more 'natural' rather about whats 'right' to the league.

Its illegal now. It wasn't illegal when he used steroids. Banned substance lists are item, by item in professional sports. There was no such thing as a comprehensive steroid ban until 2002. In fact, McGwire admitted to using a precursor in 1998 when he set the HR record.

Ah I see, I am admittedly a MLB newbie. However admitting to using steroids after all the controversy and stigma thats been associated with it doesn't seem good. HOF is all about getting the votes and by admitting to steroid use in one of the most controversial eras of baseball pretty much axes any chance he had.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Professional athletes are and have always been terrible role models.

The media definitely likes to focus on the negatives but unfortunately the good guys in pro-sports hardly get any attention by comparison. That said I'd say the average NBA player has contributed more hours (and definitely more $$$) to their community than everyone in this thread. The HOF Ceremony that inducted Jordan also included one of the most stellar role models sports history has seen: David Robinson. NBA MVP and two-time champion, Naval Academy grad, mathematics major, 1320 SAT, recruited for the Navy, and founded a non-profit school called the Carver Academy in addition to contributing other services to help build the Alamo city. What separates guys like David Robinson from Michael Jordan is that Robinson used basketball as a tool and had a life outside of it whereas for Jordan his life became consumed by the media and the game.

Another great guy is Dikembe Mutombo who is renowned for not only his finger-wag but his humanitarian work to help improve his home, the Democratic Republic of Congo and even got a mention in Bush's state of the union address. Another good example is millionaire Tim James, former NBA player who joined the military and served in Iraq because he wanted to. And then there's the late Pat Tillman RIP.

Class acts are still around but the asshats are what the media thinks we like to hear about. Hard to blame 'em since we do seem to like it

The majority of the sportscasters reporting on this have publicly stated that what McGwire has stated as to his reasons for taking steroids is dubious & that they feel he doesn't deserve to be inducted.

G

hcordes wrote:
this just seems like the wrong attitude. to me..... its like I'm gonna tell you that meth will make you wide awake for days at a time so you can get all your homework done and cram for tests, but if you go out and find a dealer thats your fault??? its a little bit on the "pass the buck" side of things,

Why should I make decisions for other people? I have no desire to take steroids, but my values and priorities are not necessarily the same as those of others. Should I deny them information because they draw conclusions from it which I don't agree with?

hcordes wrote:
"It wasn't my fault i was speeding officer, its the guy behind me. He was traveling too fast so i had to drive faster to keep him from rear-ending me."
"im not telling them to take steroids, or supplying them, but go see a doctor he can give them to you... as long as its your choice"

He can give them to him. That's not a secret. Doctors can write prescriptions for steroids in cases where they feel it is appropriate. Its not my place to determine who should, and should not be taking them as I am not qualified to make that decision. I simply provide information that anyone so inclined can dig up in a few hours of internet research.

When people ask me about steroids I generally tell them that they affect the human body in several different ways, and then give them a basic overview of those effects alongside an explanation of how common drugs work. After that I offer the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, and that they should seek the advice of one in the event that they're still interested. After that I'll give them the names of a couple sports physicians who deal with performance enhancers (supplements as well steroids) so that they can speak to the proper authorities. I receive no financial compensation for this service outside of a loyal client base who appreciate my forthright honesty.

* face palm *

dogma wrote:When people ask me about steroids I generally tell them that they affect the human body in several different ways, and then give them a basic overview of those effects alongside an explanation of how common drugs work. After that I offer the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, and that they should seek the advice of one in the event that they're still interested. After that I'll give them the names of a couple sports physicians who deal with performance enhancers (supplements as well steroids) so that they can speak to the proper authorities. I receive no financial compensation for this service outside of a loyal client base who appreciate my forthright honesty.

There is nothing wrong with this, no one can tell you that you can't share completely accessible knowledge. All in all it really seems like the best way to deal with that situation, it is not your place to make decisions for other people, as you said. Connecting them with professionals, that can help them further their knowledge of a subject, is also completely appropriate.

I should mention that, when training minors, I generally deflect the question. This is mostly because, in the case of minors, my client is technically the parent and not the child. The exception being emancipated children, but I've only ever trained one of those.

Wrexasaur wrote:

dogma wrote:When people ask me about steroids I generally tell them that they affect the human body in several different ways, and then give them a basic overview of those effects alongside an explanation of how common drugs work. After that I offer the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, and that they should seek the advice of one in the event that they're still interested. After that I'll give them the names of a couple sports physicians who deal with performance enhancers (supplements as well steroids) so that they can speak to the proper authorities. I receive no financial compensation for this service outside of a loyal client base who appreciate my forthright honesty.

There is nothing wrong with this, no one can tell you that you can't share completely accessible knowledge. All in all it really seems like the best way to deal with that situation, it is not your place to make decisions for other people, as you said. Connecting them with professionals, that can help them further their knowledge of a subject, is also completely appropriate.

Ya know I could probably be disbarred if I did similar on the legal side. Just saying.