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Oh yeah I know this, just stating that this is what we did out our store until FAQ. Tho the John guy did seem like he played a lot...

for what its worth in helping anyone decide if 'doom' can hit an embarked unit, please ignore the potential for needing a morale test while embarked. The morale rules for embarked units are simply missing; to base one rule's viability based off the absence of another rule is faulty logic.

AKA, if you belive that you should not be allowed to use 'Doom' on an embarked unit because of potential morale issues, then by the same token you should not be allowed to fire plasma weapons while embarked. Plasma weapons, indeed any 'gets hot' weapon, can cause casualties (attack themselves according to some) and thus cause a subsequent morale check while embarked.

Hope this helps shed some light on the new 'missing morale while embarked' issue, that is not really a new issue at all (its been around since, what, 3rd edition?)

It still doesnt change the fact that Njal's Chain Lightning will work on models in transports if this Tyranid issue were to rule that way.

Njal's Lord of Tempests powers only affect units in his LOS. Units in a transport can not be affected, as he can't draw LOS to them.

insaniak wrote:Njal's Lord of Tempests powers only affect units in his LOS. Units in a transport can not be affected, as he can't draw LOS to them.

Well using this same argument Page 66, under fire points section states, "Ranges and Line of sight are measured from the fire point itself". Therefore, if you can see the fire point you can draw line of site to the unit inside and they can draw line of site to the unit outside.


Also, here is some more food for thought.

Page 79-80.

It states that people inside a building are treated the same as being in a trasport vehicle. It then states on page 80 that you can use flamers against fire points. So can you use flamers against guys in vehicles if you can now draw LOS to them at the fire point?



v/r
Broxus

fire points only apply for the embarked unit's shooting, thus your arguments are invalid.

Also, the flamer versus a building firepoint is a building special rule, again invaild for vehicles.

Woot its the new Deathrolla thread that games workshop will never comment or FAQ on! I cant wait to see the opposing opinions once this starts to get FAQed.

Broxus, I think the point is that the doom doesn't require LOS, it's not a psychic attack, it's not a shooting attack and it doesn't target units...it's just a special ability/rule that auto-affects all enemy units within 6". Since there is a rule (page 66) that allows this to happen then it happens.

DevianID wrote:fire points only apply for the embarked unit's shooting, thus your arguments are invalid.

Also, the flamer versus a building firepoint is a building special rule, again invaild for vehicles.

Show me where it was only refering to fire out of the fireports? It states line of sight is drawn to the firepoint, No the argument isnt invalid.

It says buildings with occupants are treated as transport vehicles, so again this isnt invalid.

The rules state how to resolve template hits against vehicles. It doesn't mention anything about hitting the passengers, so they aren't affected (page 60).

Then further on in the book under the buildings sub-section it describes how to resolve template weapons (page 80).

Separate rules for separate models (buildings and vehicles).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boy are we off topic!

broxus wrote:

DevianID wrote:fire points only apply for the embarked unit's shooting, thus your arguments are invalid.

Also, the flamer versus a building firepoint is a building special rule, again invaild for vehicles.

Show me where it was only refering to fire out of the fireports? It states line of sight is drawn to the firepoint, No the argument isnt invalid.

It says buildings with occupants are treated as transport vehicles, so again this isnt invalid.

No, it states draw line of sight FROM the firing point, not TO. You added that last bit in yourself.

Firing points only specify hot to shoot from them, not to them.

It states they are treated like transpoort vehicles, not that they are. This means you cannot use building rules and say they must apply to transports, as A->B does not mean B->A

I personally will be using the doom of malan'tai very sparingly just because if it fails its invul save on a str 8 weapon its dead wither it has 1 or 10 wounds. In my experience, thats a common thing. The biggest thing that has hit the tyranids is loss of all creatures in synapse having eternal warrior. So this is a big problem with tyranids is high str weapons will just obliterate the army. Sure doom of malantai will own in low point games or maybe even 1850 tournament list but it just takes one failed save and you lose your wreaking ball of doom.

Also lets say tyranid player goes first doom takes 2 wounds then on the tyranid players doom fires cataclysme which scatter off target. Then the doom rolls, on a d3, 2 wounds he must make guess what you just lost your elite and 90 points. There is a somewhat good chance of this. The only tactic i can see is if i am fighting either guard, orks, or tau and you put doom in reserve, and then deploy him with a bunch of other shooty guys from a tunnel made from a trigon. Only really thing i can see working, but either way its kind of a waste unless its can large blast template like 20 guys and get a max wounds right off the bat.

I have been having good luck with Doom in a pod. drop him right beside a troop choice, he leeches a bunch of wounds at the start of the shooting phase then blows the heck out of something. If the dice roll in your favor he can pay for himself and then some on the turn he arrives. Also, if you drop him in on the same turn as your Zoey's he will draw alot of fire away from them to buy you more time to wreak havoc on any tanks nearby.

Well there is one other way to look at this thing to dis allow the use of the power against units inside of transports.

If you embark on a transport you join it to your unit so that its one unit not two seperate units. This is similar to an IC joining a squad. Then it says that vehicles automatically pass any leadership/morale tests you are required to make. It also says in the rules use the best leadership in the unit. Therefore it would have no effect on the unit inside the transport since they automatically pass any required tests.

broxus wrote:Well there is one other way to look at this thing to dis allow the use of the power against units inside of transports.

If you embark on a transport you join it to your unit so that its one unit not two seperate units. This is similar to an IC joining a squad. Then it says that vehicles automatically pass any leadership/morale tests you are required to make. It also says in the rules use the best leadership in the unit. Therefore it would have no effect on the unit inside the transport since they automatically pass any required tests.

Errm... What? That is completely wrong. By your logic, a Transport and Embarked unit would have to fire at the same unit, which they don't.

Seriously, give it up. You are wrong, now admit it and stop this nonsense.

broxus wrote:Well there is one other way to look at this thing to dis allow the use of the power against units inside of transports.

If you embark on a transport you join it to your unit so that its one unit not two seperate units. This is similar to an IC joining a squad. Then it says that vehicles automatically pass any leadership/morale tests you are required to make. It also says in the rules use the best leadership in the unit. Therefore it would have no effect on the unit inside the transport since they automatically pass any required tests.

Erm, totally and utterly wrong. When you embark a vehicle you are NOT suddenly "joined to" the vehicle.

Try again

Honestly, hitting troops in transports we all know RAI is not going to happen. I swear people will find ways to twist verbage anyway they want to help out their armies. If this skill was suppose to hit troops in a transport I think we all know they would have stated it in the codex. Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports. This falls in the shooting phase. Its the same thing with saying that you dont get cover saves from a Tervigon coming out of the ground. I feel sorry for GW. I guess I always have the option not to play someone who tries these things.

insaniak wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Say that GW does issue an FAQ that addresses Spirit Leech and that it indeed doesn't affect units in vehicles. Everyone is just going to say that GW isn't ruling per RAW. Everyone that supports it affecting units in vehicles will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.

And the vast majority of players, who do accept the GW FAQ's, will play it as FAQ'd. Which is why in YMDC we count the FAQ's as official rulings.

This.

broxus wrote:Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

Wrong, again. If a model is firing a Gets Hot Weapon from a Transport, they are affected by the weapons assploding on a roll of 1 and have to take an armour save.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports.

Guess what? It is neither Shooting, a Psychic power or a Close Combat attack.

Gwar! wrote:

broxus wrote:Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

Wrong, again. If a model is firing a Gets Hot Weapon from a Transport, they are affected by the weapons assploding on a roll of 1 and have to take an armour save.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports.

Guess what? It is neither Shooting, a Psychic power or a Close Combat attack.

Gwar, I agree on the weapon gets hot roll, and agree the RAW with that sentance says the siphon will effect the unit, but I think its very washy and for sure not RAI. There countless loopholes for that stuff. Saying that they can opens up an entire can of worms for other skills and powers to start it and I think we both know that isnt the intent.

broxus wrote:I think we both know that isnt the intent.

Do we? Last I checked I was not Robin Cruddace. Are you?

RAW wise Gwar! and co are correct. RAI wise...

When a rules decision takes a good unit usable against some armies to a 'no brainer' addition to ANY list in a spod, we may have taken things a wee bit farther than the studio intended.

That's the thing, the Doom is not a no brainer by any means. Tyranids need their anti tank so bad that giving up an elite slot for one zoanthrope is just not a good idea in most circumstances. I could see how the Doom would be a problem in small games though, but remember he still can be instant death'd just fine.

broxus wrote:Honestly, hitting troops in transports we all know RAI is not going to happen. I swear people will find ways to twist verbage anyway they want to help out their armies. If this skill was suppose to hit troops in a transport I think we all know they would have stated it in the codex. Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports. This falls in the shooting phase. Its the same thing with saying that you dont get cover saves from a Tervigon coming out of the ground. I feel sorry for GW. I guess I always have the option not to play someone who tries these things.

It is not a psychic power, shooting attack, or close combat attack... soo..... yea....


On a related note however, while I agree with the RAW being it can affect units in a transport, I will not be playing it this way until an FAQ comes out. I played this way last night against a friend, podded in between 2 eldar transports and a squad of jetbikes. I dropped an entire squad of aspect warriors in one transport, 90% of another aspect squad, and 4/5 of the jetbike squad on the first leech. I then blew up one of the transports with the str 10 ap 1 blast. It just felt too damn cheesy

Also, I think I will revise my opinion on the issue. I'm now slightly doubtful that GW will FAQ it to not work, after all it's an "aura" just like a culexus assassin's ability, and that works from transports, right, so I don't see why an "aura" couldn't work the other way around. You can die from your plasma gun inside a transport after all, so it's not like transported models can't die.

broxus wrote:Honestly, hitting troops in transports we all know RAI is not going to happen. I swear people will find ways to twist verbage anyway they want to help out their armies. If this skill was suppose to hit troops in a transport I think we all know they would have stated it in the codex. Simply, you cant effect things that have been removed from the table. Sure they can take a leadership test but there are no models there to suck wounds from so its a moot point its the same reason they cant break and run.

It specifically states that shooting, psychic powers, and close combat cant effect guys in transports. This falls in the shooting phase. Its the same thing with saying that you dont get cover saves from a Tervigon coming out of the ground. I feel sorry for GW. I guess I always have the option not to play someone who tries these things.

It seems likely that this gets FAQ:ed, but really, I don't think it's very strange either way if someone thinks/doesn't think it affects units inside a transport...

Given that the Parasite's ability specifically states that it does, it seems likely they would have done the same with the Doom, if that was their intention.

Mod note: Let's leave off the FAQ's and their legality, and most definitely leave off inventing creative names for other forum members, and stick to the topic at hand... assuming anyone has anything else constructive to add that hasn't already been covered.

So then RAW versus RAW:

Doom of Malan'tai Spirit Leech Ability states:

"...every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"...."

What is the first thing you would then do to determine if a Rhino with a tactical squad is within that 6" radius?

Well per the BRB, you measure to the hull of a vehicle to determine the range to the unit.

But the rule just said non-vehicle units within 6" and yet I am measuring range to a vehicle. Am I not breaking the very DoM rule?

The rule specifies a non-vehicle enemy unit. If I am measuring to the hull of a VEHICLE to determine the range to the unit, how is it possibly a non-vehicle enemy unit and therefore subject to Spirit Leech?

So those that point out that Spirit Leech is an area affect condition and not a psychic power or shooting attack. I agree. It is as some of you said, an aura or condition affecting non-vehicle units within 6"

However, say my above rhino transport moves into difficult terrain, do I roll 2d6 for the 10 man squad in it to determine how far the rhino moves? Since vehicles treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, would I roll 10 dice for the squad and any 1's are removed as casualties? This is just a condition or "aura" of moving in difficult/dangerous terrain.

So while the in-game mechanics exhibit through several examples that the unit is treated as a vehicle when embarked what makes the DoM suddenly special? It isn't RAW since the rule does say non-vehicle enemy units and the tactical squad inside said transport is treated as part of the vehicle until they disembark, the vehicle is destroyed, or they shoot from a firing point.

Brother Ramses wrote: Am I not breaking the very DoM rule?

No, you are not. You are measuring to the embarked non-vehicle unit. How the range is determined is altered, but it does not alter the fact that you are determining range to a non--vehicle unit.

No other ability in the game affects units from outside a vehical (See Eldar FAQ for Reference). The only thing close is a few pages back that the Parasite SPECIFICALLY says it targets units in vehicals why would they not put it in the Doom's section if it did as well.