Lone Wolf Development sends C&D to Privateer Press

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Orlanth**

The other problem is that an army builder builds armies. what is a coca-cola, nothing so the company can have the name.

Apple also works as a trademark unless you are discussing the fruit. But Army Builder, sure you can be Army Builder TM, but that doesn't stop anyone from having an army builder under a different name and refer to it as an army builder.

Thats the trouble with descriptive common nouns as Trademarks, the trademark has to be distinctive from common use of the product.

It would be like a company sellings 'Cars' TM, you can trademark 'Ka' which is what Ford did.

**Rated G**

I ate an Apple today. The video card was kind of crunchy.

**Fateweaver**

Woot, wonder how many people will stop using LW's software because they sent a C&D to PP.

GW does it to sites illegally using their name and imagery and people scream about it. LW does it to PP and I don't see pitchforks and torches being brought out.

The fickleness of nerddom.

**RogueMarket**

Hi Guys,

Please point all weapons this way. I'm the unlucky guy who had to send Privateer Press the message at the top of this thread. Based on further emails with Brent Waldher on Friday, I was expecting to discuss this with him today instead of having PP take the drastic measures they have now begun (i.e. deleting posts and instituting word filters). Please note those drastic measures are *NOT* required, and I've left a message with PP to this effect.

I'm going to do my best to respond to various posts in this thread and explain the situation. Please note that I am *not* an attorney. I'm a software developer that also has to handle the business aspects of a small company.

Before I go any further, though, please understand that we don't make the rules for how trademarks need to be enforced. The lawmakers and court system have set forth those rules, and we must simply abide by them or risk losing our trademark. That is what we are doing here, and it's not something we have a choice in - unless we want to lose the trademark.

Did I want to send the notice to PP? Absolutely not. Did I have a choice in the matter. Again, no.

Consider the following...

Imagine that iBodger, which I believe many of you use and value highly, was actually a piece of commercial software that was being sold for $5 in the iPhone app store. Imagine that the author relies on its sales to give him the financial flexibility to make updates, improvements, and other changes to the application, improving the experience of all its users. The author also trademarks the name to protect it.

Fast forward a few years. iBodger is now really popular, and its name becomes widely used to generically refer to a force creation tool. People begin using it in phrases like "I need to find a good bodger for my new Cygnar warjacks" or "Can anyone recommend a good iBodger for my Android phone?".

At first, the developer is happy with all this, because it means people really like his product. But then, someone (maybe another fan, maybe a game company developing commercial software) releases their new product for the Apple iPad, called something like "Tabletop iBodger Mk2".

Because the names are confusingly similar, people assume that the new app is from the same developer as the old one. They start posting questions about the new app on the "real" iBodger forums. People hearing about the old iBodger from their friends find the new app, and buy it instead. Many of them find the new app when they search for "iBodger" on Google.

The developer of the real iBodger is now worried. He has a trademark on the word "iBodger", so he tries to make the new program change their name. However, because people have been using the terms "bodger" and "iBodger" as generic equivalents to "force creation tool", without him trying to stop them, his attorney tells him that his case will be very expensive and unlikely to succeed. The term "iBodger" has become genericized, and his trademark is gone.

Sales of the real iBodger go down because of confusion between the two products. The original developer can no longer afford to support iBodger as well as he used to. The new company has effectively stolen the years of hard work he put in and used it to sell their own product.

This is what we're trying to avoid. If we ignore people using the our trademarks incorrectly, we run the risk of losing those trademarks and having them appropriated by other entities. If those entities can put more money behind publicity and marketing than we can, then they can effectively steal all of our hard work.

We're a company with employees. All those employees rely on the Army Builder product for a meaningful chunk of their income (along with our other products). If we do not police our trademarks, we run a high risk that they will be lost, at which point our business will be damaged and our jobs put in jeopardy. We simply cannot take that risk in good conscience.

Thanks for reading. Please let me know (either here, or by private email at rob@wolflair.com) if you have any questions or comments.

Also, thank you to the handful of posters who understand why we're doing this and have been trying to clarify it for everyone else. We appreciate your support.

-Rob

**carmachu**

Fateweaver wrote:Woot, wonder how many people will stop using LW's software because they sent a C&D to PP.

GW does it to sites illegally using their name and imagery and people scream about it. LW does it to PP and I don't see pitchforks and torches being brought out.

The fickleness of nerddom.

Apples and oranges. In the PP case,its lone wolf sending the C&D letter to PP for folks on their forums using the term "army builder". Not PP itself. Further, it was handled well by PP, tehir response was pretty classic. So its over.

Where as the C&D letters from GW had no recourse.

**George Spiggott**

Lone Wolf bit one of the hands that feed it, bad move on Lone Wolf's part.

I feel a Forward Kommander army creator link coming on.

Forward Kommander's blog has an entry regarding the C&D.

**Kanluwen**

carmachu wrote:
Fateweaver wrote:Woot, wonder how many people will stop using LW's software because they sent a C&D to PP.

GW does it to sites illegally using their name and imagery and people scream about it. LW does it to PP and I don't see pitchforks and torches being brought out.

The fickleness of nerddom.

Apples and oranges. In the PP case,its lone wolf sending the C&D letter to PP for folks on their forums using the term "army builder". Not PP itself. Further, it was handled well by PP, tehir response was pretty classic. So its over.

Where as the C&D letters from GW had no recourse.

Calling yourself the "official Blood Bowl headquarters", while being an unofficial site.

You're right, there's no reason whatsoever for GW to have done what they did!

**lord_blackfang**

Fateweaver wrote:LW does it to PP and I don't see pitchforks and torches being brought out.

Hey, I'm doing my best, buy I'm just one guy.
Well, there's really quite a lot of angry people on PP forums, and we're not taking LWD's crappy excuses.

**Kanluwen**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Fateweaver wrote:LW does it to PP and I don't see pitchforks and torches being brought out.

Hey, I'm doing my best, buy I'm just one guy.
Well, there's really quite a lot of angry people on PP forums, and we're not taking LWD's crappy excuses.

There's ALWAYS angry people on PP forums.

**Bunker**

Fateweaver wrote:Woot, wonder how many people will stop using LW's software because they sent a C&D to PP.

Quite the opposite here. I'm now far less likely to pick up a PP game in the future because of their childish reaction.

Good on LWD for protecting their trademarks.

**carmachu**

Kanluwen wrote:
Calling yourself the "official Blood Bowl headquarters", while being an unofficial site.

You're right, there's no reason whatsoever for GW to have done what they did!

Except of course you left out the part that A) GW pretty much abandoned blood bowl and support for years, almost a decade that the site was using. Further GW left updating the rules for BB to what, the commitee?

So yeah, GW pretty much played a hand it it themselves. They abscounded from the game for years, the sites been up for a decade. Why didnt they in year 1, 2, 3 while it was up have it changed then?

Apples and oranges, as I said.

**CT GAMER**

Bottom line: Lone Wolf had a programmer send out a badly proof-read document (it had typos and used Wikipedia as a legal reference) posing as a C&D letter.

In the letter LWD stated tha PP had to police people from using the phrase "army builder" in a generic sense in conversation on its forums because if they did not they would be facilitating an IP infringement . PP was not itself using the term "army builder" in any official capacity iself.

The letter also amusingly/sadly made a badly veiled threat that if PP did not do this that something bad might happen to their forums.

Not to mention the irony of it all: LWD are hypocrits.

They have made profits for years off of other people's IP. They make a program that they 100% know is used by the vast majority of users to swap and share the IP of other companies. Of course they have cleverly positioned themselves so that they can deny all culpability legally because it is the "users" that are doing the no no.

Whatever...

LWD knows exactly what people are doing with their product and have no credability as a result: They produce a product that facilitates the unauthorized reproduction of and circulation of other companies IP.

They profit from the fact that their product allows people to circulate data that they should be buying fro the rightful owners.

Yes they may hav covered their asses legally, but the are still facilitating a crime by producing their product, and laughing all the way to the bank...

This is well known however.

what is astonishing is that they have the nerve to talk down to customers claiming they need to be "educated". A little more respect and a little less "holier than thou" would have gone a long way.

Congrats LWD you are succeeding in your misssion to decrease the sale/use of your product...

**Kanluwen**

Absconding from supporting the game doesn't give the site any form of recognizable 'right' to call themselves "the official Blood Bowl headquarters".

They're still unofficial, since they are a fan site rather than the actual creators.

Oh, and it's still a pretty obvious fact that the C&Ds were the direct result of the release of the Blood Bowl game.

**Gornall**

CT GAMER wrote:Bottom line: Lone Wolf had a programmer send out a badly proof-read document (it had typos and used Wikipedia as a legal reference) posing as a C&D letter.

Not to split hairs, but that wasn't the C&D letter. It was just the email explaining it. You can read the actual C&D at ForwardKommander's website.

**CT GAMER**

Gornall wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:Bottom line: Lone Wolf had a programmer send out a badly proof-read document (it had typos and used Wikipedia as a legal reference) posing as a C&D letter.

Not to split hairs, but that wasn't the C&D letter. It was just the email explaining it. You can read the actual C&D at ForwardKommander's website.

I read the actual letter. PP posted it. It had typos and referenced wikipedia .

It was a big pile of steaming fail...

**carmachu**

Kanluwen wrote:Absconding from supporting the game doesn't give the site any form of recognizable 'right' to call themselves "the official Blood Bowl headquarters".

They're still unofficial, since they are a fan site rather than the actual creators.

Oh, and it's still a pretty obvious fact that the C&Ds were the direct result of the release of the Blood Bowl game.

Well yeah. Now that GW had money on the line via a video game, of course they paid attention.

The point is the difference bewteen the C&D letter from GW and the C&D letter from Lone wolf were vastly different.

Yes they were unoffical, but they also had GW's unoffical blessing, since they have been around for a decade. Only when a video game came about did they change their mind.

The WERE the unoffical Blood bowl headquarters. There isnt another resource around really, not even GW itself when it supported specialist games, was.

**Bunker**

carmachu wrote:

Yes they were unoffical, but they also had GW's unoffical blessing, since they have been around for a decade.

Ignorance does not equal approval, even if it goes on for a decade.

**Gornall**

CT GAMER wrote:I read the actual letter. PP posted it. It had typos and referenced wikipedia .

It was a big pile of steaming fail...

http://www.forwardkommander.com/trademark.pdf

This?

**carmachu**

Bunker wrote:

Ignorance does not equal approval, even if it goes on for a decade.

Oh really? If it was such a violation why didnt the C&D letter go out in 2001?

**Howlingmoon**

I wonder if we can have any one else throwing their toys over this?

LWD threw some toys, the Privateer threw some toys, now the forum dregs are throwing their toys.

Wonderful.

**CT GAMER**

Gornall wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:I read the actual letter. PP posted it. It had typos and referenced wikipedia .

It was a big pile of steaming fail...

http://www.forwardkommander.com/trademark.pdf

This?

No, I'm discussing the C&D email that LWD sent to Privateer Press stating that if Privateer Press didn't stop people from saying "army builder" in their conversations that something bad might happen to their forum...

It was full of typos and referenced wikipedia. it was apparently from the president of LWD. I don't know if it is more hillarious or sad really...

**Gornall**

Ah. The email with the actual legal C&D Letter attached. I thought you were referring to the actual letter.

**CT GAMER**

Howlingmoon wrote:I wonder if we can have any one else throwing their toys over this?

LWD threw some toys, the Privateer threw some toys, now the forum dregs are throwing their toys.

Wonderful.

We can all only aspire to one day be as above the fray as you oh enlightened one...

**Bunker**

carmachu wrote:
Bunker wrote:

Ignorance does not equal approval, even if it goes on for a decade.

Oh really? If it was such a violation why didnt the C&D letter go out in 2001?

Why does the date that the C and D letter go out make it any less of an infringement of GW's IP?

**Kanluwen**

carmachu wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Absconding from supporting the game doesn't give the site any form of recognizable 'right' to call themselves "the official Blood Bowl headquarters".

They're still unofficial, since they are a fan site rather than the actual creators.

Oh, and it's still a pretty obvious fact that the C&Ds were the direct result of the release of the Blood Bowl game.

Well yeah. Now that GW had money on the line via a video game, of course they paid attention.

The point is the difference bewteen the C&D letter from GW and the C&D letter from Lone wolf were vastly different.

Yes they were unoffical, but they also had GW's unoffical blessing, since they have been around for a decade. Only when a video game came about did they change their mind.

The WERE the unoffical Blood bowl headquarters. There isnt another resource around really, not even GW itself when it supported specialist games, was.

You're right. They were the "unofficial" Blood Bowl Headquarters.

That's the keyword right there.
Even if they WERE the only people supporting the game, it still does not mean that GW has surrendered the rights that they owned for Blood Bowl.

**carmachu**

Kanluwen wrote:
You're right. They were the "unofficial" Blood Bowl Headquarters.

That's the keyword right there.
Even if they WERE the only people supporting the game, it still does not mean that GW has surrendered the rights that they owned for Blood Bowl.

Never said they surrender, but they were the folks that supported the game. And given tact approval. You'll never convince me otherwise after almost a decade of being around. And most liekly having influence on LB4, LB5 and LB6.

GW knew. But choose not to deal with it for almost a decade.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bunker wrote:

Why does the date that the C and D letter go out make it any less of an infringement of GW's IP?

Because it was going on for almost a decade. And that GW KNEW about it for that long. And choose not to deal with it when it started. And same said folks, if I recall right, had influence on variety of editions of BB.

GW knew and looked the other way when it was convient for them.

**Kanluwen**

They looked the other way until the place began marketing itself as "the official Blood Bowl Headquarters" when there was a Blood Bowl video game on the horizons, and FFG began going through backlogs of GW/Citadel games.

**RiTides**

I love Army Builder, and will continue to use their product.

HOWEVER, they were way outta line on this one! They have a symbiotic relationship with game makers... so they shouldn't be using these heavy-handed tactics, when the same could easily be done in reverse. They should be helping each other, not demanding compliance!

**Kanluwen**

They're not doing anything to hurt the game makers.

They're asking for the game makers to NOT call their "official" army builder programs Army Builder.

It makes perfect sense. Coke doesn't call their stuff Pepsi to make better sales or build off the brand name.

**poipo32**

I believe PP could simply rename it ending all of the trouble as the software by Lone Wolf is very similar in function and a registered trade mark it would stand in court imo. PP would save a lot of trouble that way.