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Why do that when you can whine and make it seem like you're the victim of some kind of evil corporate scheme?!

PP's not in any trouble- now any reference to Army Builder on their forums simply becomes "iBodger" (which I gather is their free program for iphones to build armies for their game).

Simple. Elegant. Over!

And once again, I have purchsed Army Builder (twice) from Lone Wolf Development, and will continue to use their products. I love them!

But they were way out of line here. And from a public relations perspective, this was a major blunder- as evidenced by the response on PP's forums (and echoed here).

People just slip and call things army builder out of habit now.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Army_List_Building_Software

I almost called the article army builder programs, but went with list builder instead. However, I
can never remember that name and I always search for army builder.

Seems advantageous to them, unless maybe they were losing out recently. The proliferation
of the words army builder would naturally lead to their site and product. I don't think Warmachine
is a problem market for them because you don't really need a list builder too often in MK2.
Clearing lists for my recent event was a snap even when I had to check the physical cards of
an army I didn't know.

Removed, instead I will put CT Gamer on ignore.

Awesome. The ignore function works.

This thread is a classic case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing but a lack of knowledge and no common sense is worse."

I believe someone earlier in the thread pointed out the actual reality of what is happening here has gone straight over the masses heads. I tend to agree.

Kanluwen and Poipo32 have you even read the letter from LWD to PP?!? You both seem ignorant of the facts.

Privateer Press DOES NOt have a list building progam they refer to as "army builder" etc. There is no such product that they could change the name of.

LWD's letter to PP stated that they had been spying on the PP foums for a long time and that forumites on the PP forums are saying things like "Hey what army builder program do you use?" or "hey is ibodger a good army builder?" etc. ,etc.

LWD's beef was that people saying such things on PP' forums was a breach of their IP and that PP was in violation for allowing people to use such phrases and then threatened that if PP did not police every message on their forum and prevent people from using the term "army builder" in a generic sense in conversation that something bad might happen to their forum (thinly veiled threat of legal action against their forum?). They also in very derogatory language infered that the PP forumites needed to be "educated" about the use of the term "army builder" so they could b taught that using that sequence of words (even in a generic sense) is an IP violation.

So to clarify LWD threatened legal action on PP if it didnt prevent people from using the words "army" and "builder" in sequence when talking about any form of list creation tool.

Just to beclear since you both seem confused...

BTw, I will still continue to use AB. It is a relative good program and saves me having to do it myself. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what they have done.

fullheadofhair wrote:

A little bit of knowledge is often dangerous but a total lack of it and no common sense is even worse.

You are correct and need to apply this to your own participation in this thread.


The letter( complete with typos and wikipedia references despite being presented as an offical buisness document discussing legal matters) was written by LWD president "Rob" who stated on the PP forums himself (he joined this afternoon) that he "ran it by" his crack legal team before shooting it off in email form to the PP foum administrator...

Under pressure from those on the PP forums he backtracked and tried to say that any erroneous legal assertions he might have made have to be excused because he is just a "programmer" and not a lawyer, and that his legal counsel was out of the office for the day (east coast office?) so he couldnt verify anything with them regarding his legal threats. That didnt stop him from posting away however...

He joined the PP forum this afternoon and proceeded to argue with PP forumites and basically talked in circles and made an ass of himself...

He did manage to alienate a bunch of customers so i guess it was worth it...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

fullheadofhair wrote:Removed, instead I will put CT Gamer on ignore.

I accept your admission of lack of facts.

The letter written to PP was by Rob Bowes of Lone Wolf Development. He is not an attorney he is a software developer by trade.

This is taken from the PP forums:

lonewolfdevel wrote:Hi Guys,

Please point all weapons this way. I'm the unlucky guy who had to send Privateer Press the message at the top of this thread. Based on further emails with Brent Waldher on Friday, I was expecting to discuss this with him today instead of having PP take the drastic measures they have now begun (i.e. deleting posts and instituting word filters). Please note those drastic measures are *NOT* required, and I've left a message with PP to this effect.

I'm going to do my best to respond to various posts in this thread and explain the situation. Please note that I am *not* an attorney. I'm a software developer that also has to handle the business aspects of a small company.

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=9026&page=5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fullheadofhair wrote:I believe someone earlier in the thread pointed out the actual reality of what is happening here has gone straight over the masses heads. I tend to agree.

Fools seldom differ.

George Spiggott wrote:

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=9026&page=5

FYI: The thread's content has been removed and replaced by a note from the mods.

George Spiggott wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

fullheadofhair wrote:I believe someone earlier in the thread pointed out the actual reality of what is happening here has gone straight over the masses heads. I tend to agree.

Fools seldom differ.

And lemmings follow each other of a cliff in great numbers - no different to nerd rage on forums.

Really ... so LWD should just allow anyone to use their trademark - as in we have an army builder for X product. No, of course not. Not matter how much people whine LWD own the rights to "Army Builder". But, heck, why let a few facts get in the way of a good torching.

And as for PP being "the good guy" .....

The original C&D was sent by an attorny. The follow up was by Rob as you correctly point out. If people actually to a minute out of their self-righteous jumping up and down and read what was happening they might actually learn something about real life. Like follow some rules.

The email sent to PP was sent directly to them from Rob (as he stated himself on the PP forums) after he supposedly consulted with his lawyers.

This is a second and different correspondence from that sent to Forward Kommander.

The email to PP specificaly addressed the sillyness I detail above.

Very similar to the legal battles that Xerox went through. Xerox is a company. The term "xerox" became common terminology for what is created...

Likewise LWD owns "Army Builder" (capitalized name of a specific product) but that doesn t mean that you can't have apps/programs that are "army builders" (not capitalized)...

Rob was arguing on the PP forums that people saying thinsg like " What army builder program do you prefer" is an IP violation,etc. and was threatening to take action against PP if they allowed people to use such phrases not in reference to LWD 's product...

Madness...

lone wolf's explanation is crap. comparing the terms "army builder" and "ibodger" is like comparing apples and oranges. one is a phrase that exists in common english that refers to the process EVERYONE uses in wargames when... wait for it.. building their armies! ibodger is a completely made up term not in use in common english. i could understand them going after someone who used the words together (especially with capital first letters) in the title of a competing program but not in the normal english use of the two words. maybe i should write up a quick C++ program with my old freshman year college course books that allows you to fight with simple units... and i'll call it "War Game". that way, when someone uses the words war and game next to each other, i can send a "do it yourself" C&D letter!

warboss wrote:lone wolf's explanation is crap. comparing the terms "army builder" and "ibodger" is like comparing apples and oranges. one is a phrase that IS TRADEMARKED BY LWD ibodger is a completely made up term not in use in common english. i could understand them going after someone who used the words together (especially with capital first letters) in the title of a competing program but not in the normal english use of the two words. maybe i should write up a quick C++ program with my old freshman year college course books that allows you to fight with simple units... and i'll call it "War Game". that way, when someone uses the words war and game next to each other, i can send a "do it yourself" C&D letter!

There, fixed your typo for you.

Aduro wrote:Wow, that letter makes PP kind of look like asshats over the whole thing.

Quoted for truth.

But Privateer Press has always come off like asshats... I'm pretty sure its a company directive: "Whenever possible, if a Privateer Press employee has a choice between civility and severe, unadalterated douchebaggery, said employee is encouraged and obligated to choose douchebaggery."

I'm pretty sure that's in their employee handbook somewhere.

I can't remember the exact quote, but in one of their first books they said something along the lines of "if you aren't playing with metal models, then you're a big gaming pussy." I had a huge laugh when they were forced to convert to plastic...

"Army builder" most likely would not hold up if challenged.

Just like you couldn't get the sole rights to "frying pan" or "cell Phone", or "soft drink" and just like Xerox didn't hold up.

A number of IP lawyers have already commented on this in disussions on other forums.

It's irrelevant however, becaue PP gave them what they wanted and filtered said name right out of existance on their forums...

fullheadofhair wrote:And lemmings follow each other of a cliff in great numbers...

I'm afraid this is also untrue.

fullheadofhair wrote:Really ... so LWD should just allow anyone to use their trademark - as in we have an army builder for X product. No, of course not. Not matter how much people whine LWD own the rights to "Army Builder". But, heck, why let a few facts get in the way of a good torching.

And as for PP being "the good guy" .....

The original C&D was sent by an attorny. The follow up was by Rob as you correctly point out. If people actually to a minute out of their self-righteous jumping up and down and read what was happening they might actually learn something about real life. Like follow some rules.

There is no original C&D sent to PP only the email sent by Rob. Should LWD let anyone use their Trademark? No. Should they have used some social skills and started with a softer approach? Definitely. LWD made a massive miscalculation here that will hurt them more than it hurts PP, if it hurts PP at all.

You need to check your facts and wind your neck in.

CT GAMER wrote:"Army builder" most likely would not hold up if challenged.

Just like you couldn't get the sole rights to "frying pan" or "cell Phone", or "soft drink" and just like Xerox didn't hold up.

A number of IP lawyers have already commented on this in disussions on other forums.

It's irrelevant however, becaue PP gave them what they wanted and filtered said name right out of existance on their forums...

What are you talking about?

"Army Builder" WOULD hold up, as it refers to a specific program used for a specific purpose.

If it were "Army List Management Tool", then it wouldn't have any kind of grounds whatsoever.

Kanluwen wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:"Army builder" most likely would not hold up if challenged.

Just like you couldn't get the sole rights to "frying pan" or "cell Phone", or "soft drink" and just like Xerox didn't hold up.

A number of IP lawyers have already commented on this in disussions on other forums.

It's irrelevant however, becaue PP gave them what they wanted and filtered said name right out of existance on their forums...

What are you talking about?

"Army Builder" WOULD hold up, as it refers to a specific program used for a specific purpose.

If it were "Army List Management Tool", then it wouldn't have any kind of grounds whatsoever.

Try to follow along:

Army Builder (capitalized) might hold up (though two IP lawyers who commented thought it weak at best) if someone else tried to make an app/file that did a similar thing and used the term. But that isn't evnt he issue that was being argued per se.

Rob/LWD tried to make th arguement that if someone says " I'm not sure what army builder program is the best: ibodger or Foward Kommander" that the statement ITSELF is somehow a Copyright violaton and that PP is also in violation because they allowed someone to post this phrase... is absolute insanity., and that is what Rob tried to argue and threaten PP over.

many programs help you "build armies" in the generic sense of the phrase. This generic phrasing used in comversation can't be copyrighted.

It also occures to me that the term "Army Builder" was never used before Army Builder (TM) came to be. Ever.

I've been gaming for a rediculous amount of time, and racking my brains I can't think of a single time a person I gamed with used the term "army Builder" before LWD's software hit the market.

When LWD's product did hit the market, it took off like wildfire. Even with it's rediculous amount of errors, it not only became the accepted method of army list, it became the expected form of army list. Many a nerdfight I have seen begun over an illegal move/action/whatever because someone was using Army Builder (TM) instead of his codex.

In the past decade or so, the term - which was coined by LWD - has become common place.

To say that LWD borrowed a common place term is either a blatant lie from someone with an axe to grind or a forgivable offense born in ignorance. Period.

DeathGod wrote:It also occures to me that the term "Army Builder" was never used before Army Builder (TM) came to be. Ever.

I've been gaming for a rediculous amount of time, and racking my brains I can't think of a single time a person I gamed with used the term "army Builder" before LWD's software hit the market.

When LWD's product did hit the market, it took off like wildfire. Even with it's rediculous amount of errors, it not only became the accepted method of army list, it became the expected form of army list. Many a nerdfight I have seen begun over an illegal move/action/whatever because someone was using Army Builder (TM) instead of his codex.

In the past decade or so, the term - which was coined by LWD - has become common place.

To say that LWD borrowed a common place term is either a blatant lie from someone with an axe to grind or a forgivable offense born in ignorance. Period.

thats the whole point. Xerox (which is far less generic of a word/term) lost it's own fight to copyright what the word came to stand for. We all use the term xerox today to refer to a specific thng (a copy) even though many machines that are not made by Xerox make them...

LWD development makes "ArmyBuilder"(TM). Th Xerox of army builder (lower case) software

George Spiggott wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:And lemmings follow each other of a cliff in great numbers...

I'm afraid this is also untrue.

fullheadofhair wrote:Really ... so LWD should just allow anyone to use their trademark - as in we have an army builder for X product. No, of course not. Not matter how much people whine LWD own the rights to "Army Builder". But, heck, why let a few facts get in the way of a good torching.

And as for PP being "the good guy" .....

The original C&D was sent by an attorny. The follow up was by Rob as you correctly point out. If people actually to a minute out of their self-righteous jumping up and down and read what was happening they might actually learn something about real life. Like follow some rules.

There is no original C&D sent to PP only the email sent by Rob. Should LWD let anyone use their Trademark? No. Should they have used some social skills and started with a softer approach? Definitely. LWD made a massive miscalculation here that will hurt them more than it hurts PP, if it hurts PP at all.

You need to check your facts and wind your neck in.

Dude, some one has already posted the actual C&D (link in pg 3) in this forum as well as the email letter (pg 1 of thread).

I am pretty sure the chances that PP haven't seen a C&D is particularly slim.

Also, while we are at it - I love how you call me a fool and then basically agree with me that LWD was well within their rights to do so. Birds of a feather?

so bugger off.

but you are right, as far as I am concerned it won't hurt PP much because I think they are talentless douches who don't behave as well as people like to believe.

CT GAMER wrote:

DeathGod wrote:It also occures to me that the term "Army Builder" was never used before Army Builder (TM) came to be. Ever.

I've been gaming for a rediculous amount of time, and racking my brains I can't think of a single time a person I gamed with used the term "army Builder" before LWD's software hit the market.

When LWD's product did hit the market, it took off like wildfire. Even with it's rediculous amount of errors, it not only became the accepted method of army list, it became the expected form of army list. Many a nerdfight I have seen begun over an illegal move/action/whatever because someone was using Army Builder (TM) instead of his codex.

In the past decade or so, the term - which was coined by LWD - has become common place.

To say that LWD borrowed a common place term is either a blatant lie from someone with an axe to grind or a forgivable offense born in ignorance. Period.

thats the whole point. Xerox (which is far less generic of a word/term) lost it's own fight to copyright what the word came to stand for. We all use the term xerox today to refer to a specific thng (a copy) even though many machines that are not made by Xerox make them...

And the ignorance continues... Xerox lost that copyright fight because they waited for more than three decades (I think, it's too late for me to go researching dates at the moment) to protect their TM.

Your example, in fact, SUPPORTS LWD's course of action, because avoiding a repeat of Xerox's problem is the entire point of the C&D...

DeathGod wrote:It also occures to me that the term "Army Builder" was never used before Army Builder (TM) came to be. Ever.

I've been gaming for a rediculous amount of time, and racking my brains I can't think of a single time a person I gamed with used the term "army Builder" before LWD's software hit the market.

When LWD's product did hit the market, it took off like wildfire. Even with it's rediculous amount of errors, it not only became the accepted method of army list, it became the expected form of army list. Many a nerdfight I have seen begun over an illegal move/action/whatever because someone was using Army Builder (TM) instead of his codex.

In the past decade or so, the term - which was coined by LWD - has become common place.

To say that LWD borrowed a common place term is either a blatant lie from someone with an axe to grind or a forgivable offense born in ignorance. Period.

I would have to agree. Having been gaming for 17+ years it was never army building. It was "list writing" or "I need to write a list first". Now, if I play its "just need to build an army first"

DeathGod wrote:In the past decade or so, the term - which was coined by LWD - has become common place.

To say that LWD borrowed a common place term is either a blatant lie from someone with an axe to grind or a forgivable offense born in ignorance. Period.

Who cares? Non of the websites contacted by LWD have chosen to fight the C&D.

Whether 'Army Builder' is a general phrase or not a number of websites are adding 'Army Builder' to their word filters as the only practical way of enforcing the terms of the C&D.

George Spiggott wrote:

DeathGod wrote:In the past decade or so, the term - which was coined by LWD - has become common place.

To say that LWD borrowed a common place term is either a blatant lie from someone with an axe to grind or a forgivable offense born in ignorance. Period.

Who cares? Non of the websites contacted by LWD have chosen to fight the C&D.

Whether 'Army Builder' is a general phrase or not a number of websites are adding 'Army Builder' to their word filters as the only practical way of enforcing the terms of the C&D.

So what actually is you point? Care to make it in simple phrases coz you seem to be rolling all over the place.

DeathGod wrote:
And the ignorance continues... Xerox lost that copyright fight because they waited for more than three decades (I think, it's too late for me to go researching dates at the moment) to protect their TM.

Your example, in fact, SUPPORTS LWD's course of action, because avoiding a repeat of Xerox's problem is the entire point of the C&D...

People persisted in calling copies Xeroxes regardless of what machine made them. Was xerox gonna sue every perosn that said "I just made a xerox of your report"?

That is what Rob was calling PP to do: to stop ever person on their forum from using the term "army builder' (not capitlized) in genral conversation or reference to any app that was not"Army Builder". We aren't talking about the actual naming of a product, we are talking about using a term that has come into common use in gaming culture: "army builder" (not capitalized). Rob threatend to take legal action against PP if it didnt prevent it's forum uers fro saying things like "what army builder app is your favorite".

This had nothing to do with actual Ip infringement by a competing product.

fullheadofhair wrote:Dude, some one has already posted the actual C&D (link in pg 3) in this forum as well as the email letter (pg 1 of thread).

That's a C&D to Forward Kommander. Feel free to link to it if I'm in error here.

Lonewolfdevel wrote:Perhaps we should have sent the formal letter from the attorneys. We chose not to...
__________________
Rob Bowes, Lone Wolf Development
http://www.wolflair.com

I have to say that I really dislike PPs reaction to this.

It was all fine to slag LWD in their absence. But as soon as the owner/developer Rob attempted to defend his actions, the thread was deleted.

PP changed policy to disallow other businesses from posting on their boards.

Oh and the snipes about obvious typos should apply to PP as well.

The new policy from the PP boards.

"Privateer Press does not allow manufacturers who do on have an official affiliation with Privateer to represent their products or services in Privateer Press forums. Furthermore, the Privateer Press forums are for the discussion of Privateer Products and subjects relevant to our products, services, and events. We greatly appreciate the support of our players but have chosen to remove the ensuing discussion as it does not pertain to the aforementioned subjects in a way that we feel is relevant. Please take note of this policy change, which we will add to our official forum rules after removing this sticky in 30 days. Further discussion on this topic will be deleted. Thank you for your cooperation. "

skrulnik wrote:Oh and the snipes about obvious typos should apply to PP as well.

Because formal legal threats and posts on internet forums hold the same weight.

If only Rob had chosen to post on the forums that he emailed first. We wouldn't be at this position now.

1.) I think Lone Wolf was correct in their stance that US copyright law does not allow, but in fact demands, that they defend their mark or lose it. Hence, they had no choice. I think generally they handled the situation as well as they could have, even pointing out that they were legally required to do this.

2.) I think Lone Wolf probably exceeded the scope of their responsibility by requesting Privateer Press back filter messages and that was likely unreasonable.

3.) I think Privateer Press's response was childish and unprofessional.

4.) I doubt Lone Wolf's trademark of "Army Builder" could withstand a legal challenge, as it's too generic of a phrase, without a secondary meaning that is unambiguously linked to Lone Wolf.