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BeRzErKeR wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Had another game against Hulksmash...

Even with 30 Lootas, I simply don't have an answer to razorback/rhino spam.

It's been said before, and I'll say it again; rokkit buggies. 210 points gets you 6 TL rokkit launchas, equaling a little more than three hits a turn on average, which is enough to put down a Razorback or two every turn. 12" deployment + 12" move + 24" range means you'll be shooting turn 1. For a mere 30 points more you can upgrade those 6 buggies to reroll DT tests too, so you don't lose any to bad luck with terrain.

Alternatively;

3-man Warbiker units with a klaw Nob-115 points for quite decent AT capacity, but fragile.

kannons-78 points for a battery of 3 with 3 extra krew and 3 ammo runts, letting you re-roll when you need it. Better than average AT, and they have a 36" range too.

Yeah I think 3 buggies in the last FA slot and/or 3 Kannons w Ammo Runts in your last heavy slot are both reliable cheap ways to get more vehicle kill into the list without dramatically changing it. I'd cut some burna boyz to find the points. I think 15 is overkill.

There is one good thing, despite their somewhat OTT possibilities, not to mention being one of the most powerful armies, Space Wolves are somewhat rare. There aren't nearly as much of them as there are vanilla marines, and its fairly unlikely that you'll fight them at the GT.

Still, those rokkit buggies are awesome, because they can actually hit things due to TL. you said your converting some though so i'd imagine you plan on using them. Do not fear, for no matter what, Orks can adapt. That is, so long as you can.


Im surprised, Rokkit buggies used to never get used, and I heard they were one of the weaker units in the codex, but now, no doubt due to the rise of mech, everyone is saying how great they can be, and since they benefit from the KFF, they synergize well with Mech Orks.

Pepper,

What can we say that you would listen to? build the army you want to man!

Looters are overrated. You can have a gazillion shots and pay through the nose for them, but you can only target one unit or vehicle...... so that is overkill on a rhino or even razorback with 15 lootas, but what would I know. The marines inside still come out and rape you, but what would I know? Same points buys you 50 wounds worth of ork boys, frankly a much better investment.

Buggie smuggie. With BS 2 a reroll does not guarantee a hit. Buggies can be shot be boltguns. They might be good, with their speed, but they are not reliable. you can take them to be sure, but no reason to think they are special good, or reliable. In a nice BIG ork horde they might be ignored enough to get their points back, or with lucky dice they might exceed expectations, but they are no core of an army.

Battle wagons are pretty well good for nothing. Buffed up front armour is irrelevant in a manouver game where you can be flanked, the weapons options are all crap except the vaunted death roller, but it would be rare to find a good player let you steam roll him. Points down the drain, basic trukks do much better...since they are fast and they can be assaulted out of.....

Like I said, the codex is frustrating, because you feel you want to use this that or the other thing, but almost nothing in the codex is actually any good or competitive. And it is rarely fun .

9 warbuggies with twin linked rokkits and 9 Kannon with as many reroll grots as possible make heaps more sense than what you are fielding in terms of shooty support.... Not game winning, but irritatingly numerous enough to give you some lucky dice, if you can find ways to deploy them effectively.....
Problem is deployment. You might cover some board arcs ok, but the best players don't give you such easy targets.

Indeed 2 Big mech HQ with the SPAZ gun thingy make heaps more sense than Ghazkull. Why? Because they exercise control over areas of the board, fire lanes. Big Ghaz is a mellee beast, but he's wasted driving around looking for something to crunch. He also has less initiative than other leading characters, so he's expensive mincemeat if he comes up against serious (better) opposition......think Abaddon or Kharne!

Meganobs delivered by wartrucks.....with warboss. Ork problem is low morale and initiative, so even these mellee "elites" are fairly dubious vs decent things like hive tyrants or dedicated mellee marines....

Nob Mob with the mad dok....

Nobs on bikes with heavy flamers combi weapons....

And of course mobs of 30 ork boys on foot with the PK...

You can post a lame list and then post a thousand mea culpas wondering why why why you keep losing.

Its because the basic idea is wrong.

And there is no basic game plan, or tactical theory behind the build.

Can we surmise that you lack game experience?

Can we add, that you have chosen an army that actually needs a game plan and tactical theory (and experience) to function.

"Mech Orks" is an idea, but its crazy to base your army and play on an aesthetic. It needs to be based on flexible functionality.

It is simply wrong to take Ghazkull if you dont have in the vicinity of 100 mellee orks to use the double waaagh with.

It is simply wrong to invest 300 points in battlewagons, EVER, since these do not shoot or mellee or even transport that well (With a double waagh they are totally redundant!).

At the speed you are noting the tactical limits of your list, it will be about another year of steady losses before you realise that a viable ork horde needs about 120 footsloggers.

And then about a year later you will realise that a compact, flexible army like space wolves, or MC dominant Tyrannids, are a lot more FUN to play. You still win and lose, but you develop your own play stlye and skill a lot more with an elite army.

Also Marines and IG naturally lend themselves to the mech idea you are after. As of course do Dark Eldar if they ever get around to re-issuing.

When I said the codex sucks, I didn't intend to say that orks are not a winning army. They can be of course. Unfortunately the winning builds for orks are not very interesting to look at, paint or play. So many things in the codex are simply second rate or borderline useless.

At 1800 points you want an ork army.

Its gonna start with 6 mobs of 30 ork boys, Ghakkull and the mad dok. 4 mobs of nobs in whatever configuration you like.

Why? Because these are all sound!

Everything else consists of various degrees of compromise and mediocrity.

And I have about 5000 points of orks (every vehicle option, all scratch built and painted)

Frankly its an army that is great for modelling, but if I want to play the game, I take ANYTHING else.

OTG

Hate to break it to you OTG but more than a few of us have won without 120 orks on foot that you claim are so required. Lootas have their place as do much of the rest of the units in the codex. I retired my mounted Orks w/a very impressive win record because I got tired of running them. I've noticed more and more that I am a hammer player. My 'Nids and Wolves lists are both hammers. So are my Orks. I'm actually getting ready to go back to them once the plastic kanz come out.

I have to say I disagree with about 90% of your post on how to build and play orks. You might not have experienced success with "mech" orks but a lot of people have. And often you contradict yourself in your statements. Your obviously trolling and it's annoying to see someone bashing someone for trying to improve their list.

So I'm done feeding the troll and back on subject:

Personally after running up against his list again I'd say he'd be better served dropping Ghaz for a stock warboss w/pk and then adding 3 buggies w/TL Rokkits. It nets him heavier firepower and gives him a solid extra punch. Maybe even drop another 5 Burnaz and add in some kannons. Just some thoughts since 15 burnas is kinda crazy overkill

Hulksmash wrote:Hate to break it to you OTG but more than a few of us have won without 120 orks on foot that you claim are so required. Lootas have their place as do much of the rest of the units in the codex. I retired my mounted Orks w/a very impressive win record because I got tired of running them. I've noticed more and more that I am a hammer player. My 'Nids and Wolves lists are both hammers. So are my Orks. I'm actually getting ready to go back to them once the plastic kanz come out.

I have to say I disagree with about 90% of your post on how to build and play orks. You might not have experienced success with "mech" orks but a lot of people have. And often you contradict yourself in your statements. Your obviously trolling and it's annoying to see someone bashing someone for trying to improve their list.

So I'm done feeding the troll and back on subject:

Personally after running up against his list again I'd say he'd be better served dropping Ghaz for a stock warboss w/pk and then adding 3 buggies w/TL Rokkits. It nets him heavier firepower and gives him a solid extra punch. Maybe even drop another 5 Burnaz and add in some kannons. Just some thoughts since 15 burnas is kinda crazy overkill

Yeah I'd second this suggestion as well. I was gonna suggest dumping the 2nd HQ altogether but then decided having a PK in the Burna wagon was still worthwhile.

So maybe downgrade Ghaz (it's tough I know but you desperately need the additional shooting without rockitt kanz or rockitt wagons) drop the burna count to 8 and then add the buggy squadron and a kannon unit. Use the remaining points on upgrades (armor on your trukks, burna on your KFF, red paint, extra crew, cybork and bosspole on the warboss).

Dash, have a look at this, its something you may like. I've looked at your list and tried to stick to units you like..

1 x Ghazgkull Thraka
1 x Big Mek kustom force field, burna & boss pole

Elite

15 x Lootas
15 x Lootas

Troops

17 x Shoota Boyz Nob w/ power klaw & boss pole
20 x Shoota Boyz Nob w/ power klaw & boss pole
20 x Shoota Boyz Nob w/ power klaw & boss pole

Fast Attack

1 x Deffcopter 1 x twin-linked rokkits & 1 x buzzsaw
1 x Deffcopter 1 x twin-linked rokkits & 1 x buzzsaw
1 x Deffcopter 1 x twin-linked rokkits & 1 x buzzsaw

Heavy Support

1 x Battlewagon big shoota, reinforced ram & boarding plank
1 x Battlewagon big shoota, reinforced ram & boarding plank
1 x Battlewagon big shoota, reinforced ram & boarding plank


I think this is around the 1750 mark, roughly. Your lists are 1850 if I remember right so you still have points to play with.

I've kept Ghazgkull for you as I know he's your boy. I've kept a standard big mek build for giving those wagons cover, though you could drop the burna, possibly.

I've lost the burna unit I'm afriad. Only thing you could do is split one unit of wagon boyz up into trukk boyz and keep the spare battlewagon for a unit of burnas. You will also probably need to drop both loota units down to 10, this is saving you 150 points which which will buy you 10 burnas. I think you'll probably just have to do with 10 burnas on this one. If you take burnas I would probably put the big mek in with these to compliment them and also throw a boss pole on the mek too.

Deffkopters do what they do.

Hope that helps!!

Hrm.

I feel safe ignoring OTG. =p

To the rest....a few points to make:

1. I *do* feel like I'm wasting Ghazghkull a bit without a nob squad, but I'm not kidding - literally *every* game I play has an instance where I say, "Nope, they're fearless." Multiple instances of that. That extra 6" is usually what gets me into base contact - no one expects the Spanish inquisition!!

2. A note on Lootas - I have to say that I've been unimpressed by them. 225 poitns per squad, 450 points in total...can't hurt the land raiders, leman russes...really difficult time hurting hammerheads and all the other AV13 out there. The games I've been using them, they're rarely getting their points back. Against Hulksmash, my two squads of 15 weapon destroyed a razorback's assault cannon and immobilized another. Then one squad got wiped by a deep-striking pod and its contents. I think its too late for me to change for this GT because I'm already 10 gretchin and 25 Lootas short of a painted list and they need to get done and painted so I'm allowed to use them. As if this entire experience hasn't already broken the core of how I play orks, let me add another one: I'm honestly considering the effectiveness of taking 5-10 Lootas.

3. Rokkit-buggies: They fit my mechanized theme much better than Lootas do, and I think that my end-game (which I can't fix for this GT) would be to have two squads of small Lootas, and a squadron or two or three of rokkit buggies. While a bolter can certainly hurt a rokkit buggy, it will hurt it much less than it will hurt a deffkopta. I wish I had time to build/paint/convert all this before the GT, but its beyond plausible. =p Its going to be a crunch to get 25 Lootas assembled (and I'm going to have to use big shootas for a number of them) and painted.

Firstly, did you look at the list I posted?

Second can you explain why you don't need boss poles for? See I've looked at ghazgkulls rules and your army becomes fearless for your turn and the opponents next turn, so you're fearless for only two turns. After that your back to normal leadership tests, which you can fail and because orks lose high numbers these will be needed. Also if someone attacks a transport on the first turn, pops it and lays waste to the unit inside they can be force morale test.

So unless I am missing something I cannot see why you don't need bosspoles because they're only fearless for a turn.

I think you had bad luck with your lootas. 15 lootas should pop a razorback no problem. Of course they're no good against russes, land raiders and monoliths but you already know that and that is not there role. See, the thing with lootas is they work on volume of fire. You take small untis and your only making yourself slightly better for morale tests, you won't be shooting anything any better.

I've tried buggies and I didn't rate them. Reason is the deffkopter is more mobile, it doesn't take terrain tests and can move a lot quicker. It also gets armour save and can assault. So if you pop a transport you can assault whats in next turn, you can't with a buggy which will be sure to be blown up next turn.

Dashofpepper wrote:

2. A note on Lootas - I have to say that I've been unimpressed by them. 225 poitns per squad, 450 points in total...can't hurt the land raiders, leman russes...really difficult time hurting hammerheads and all the other AV13 out there. The games I've been using them, they're rarely getting their points back. Against Hulksmash, my two squads of 15 weapon destroyed a razorback's assault cannon and immobilized another. Then one squad got wiped by a deep-striking pod and its contents. I think its too late for me to change for this GT because I'm already 10 gretchin and 25 Lootas short of a painted list and they need to get done and painted so I'm allowed to use them. As if this entire experience hasn't already broken the core of how I play orks, let me add another one: I'm honestly considering the effectiveness of taking 5-10 Lootas.

Yeah lootas suck against AV 13 and AV 14. You shouldn't bother shooting at AV 13 unless that's the only target you have. That's why Deffkoptas are in the list: to shoot at and assault things like Hammerheads, Leman Russ or Predators that you can't pop with lootas.

They really shine against IG and their mass of AV 12 murder machines like Vendettas, Manticores, Medusas, Banewolves etc...

The reason you run them as large as 15 isn't because you need all 15 it's because we expect our opponents to kill a number of them with shooting throughout the game. It's also nice having that large volume of fire against MC lists like Daemons and Nids. You'll be happy you have all 15 in the unit then. I consider 5 man squads also effective as I also suggest running them that size but I don't see how cutting ANY lootas helps you with your problem here. You need more FO slots filled with fire support, not less lootas.

Sucks you've run out of time and can't make additional modifications. I will say that Hulksmash is probably playing one of the better lists in the metagame right now so if he's stomping on you a small consolation is he's playing an absolute top tier army. A lot of people at GT's are gonna have crappy lists that you'll probably run over. You'll apparently have an issue at the top tables though.

Hulksmash told me his list is unique too. ><

I wasn't planning on giving up Lootas for less anti-tank, but to give up lootas to get rokkit buggies as well - IE, more anti tank.

Which do you think is better: 2 units of 15 Lootas, or 2 units of 5 lootas, and two units of rokkit buggies? *curious*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And mercer, the last two iterations of my list *have* had bosspoles.

Ah good man, I should have checked the front post I guess.... :S

Personaly I would to 2 units of 15 lootas and see how it plays.

I didn't say unique. I said you probably wouldn't see it and if it's there there will be only maybe one person running something very similar

Lootas are alright, but, as has been pointed out, unreliable and expensive. They annoy the living crap out of some mech lists, and they can be the bane of the Kan Wall, but it sounds like Hulksmash is running a really fierce SW list, so take your experience with a grain of salt.

Sorry you don't have time for the buggies. I think when you get a couple squadrons on the table, you will find they match your mechanized bullrush style quite well.

It sounds like Hulksmash is a good player with a strong list, so my advice would be to not overtailor your list to beat rhino spam or get too down on your list because it's running into a list that counters its own effectiveness and, more importantly, running into a good player. Maybe it was a small pond, but you've seen what your core list can do against other lists, so don't lose that confidence. Just keep tweaking and playtesting. You're getting lots of good feedback here.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hulksmash told me his list is unique too. ><

I wasn't planning on giving up Lootas for less anti-tank, but to give up lootas to get rokkit buggies as well - IE, more anti tank.

Which do you think is better: 2 units of 15 Lootas, or 2 units of 5 lootas, and two units of rokkit buggies? *curious*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And mercer, the last two iterations of my list *have* had bosspoles.

Here is my crude math, remember adding 2 units of buggies means you have to drop a deffkopta as well an also assumes we're shooting at rhino chassis:

5 Lootas = 10 Shots, 3.3 Hits, 1.65 Wounds
5 Lootas = 10 Shots, 3.3 Hits, 1.65 Wounds
3 Buggies = 3 TL Shots, 1.5 Hits, 1 Wound
3 Buggies = 3 TL Shots, 1.5 Hits, 1 Wound

This option is around 5-6 wounds split among 4 targets all other factors being equal (range, resiliency of the units)

15 Lootas = 30 Shots, 10 Hits, 5 Wounds
15 Lootas = 30 Shots, 10 Hits, 5 Wounds
1 Deffkopta = 1 TL Shot, .5 Hits, .25 Wounds + 3 Assault Attacks (3 Hits, 1.5 Wounds)

This option is around 12 wounds split among 3 targets all other factors being equal.

Against razorback spam the first option might be slightly better assuming the small loota squads are ignored because you get an extra vehicle stunned result per turn. But that's a best case scenario.

Against everything else I'd probably prefer option two because it's just more wounds and overall greater range. This matters against MC's and it also matters against firing lines where your buggies probably aren't shooting on turn 1 but your lootas are. Against an army like IG this is extremely important.

I think 30 lootas and a deffkopta is better.

That doesn't mean optimal though. I'd maybe consider the suggestions above.

What about 20 lootas? 2 squads of 10.

Lootas are great but you need rokkits too, so feel free to cut back.

I'd keep Ghazghkull since you claerly know how to use him to his fullest.

Stick to your guns...

As I said, I wouldn't be too worried about RB spam. Just test out your list against other armies.

hopefully you will have your buggies next time at least.

Snikkyd wrote:What about 20 lootas? 2 squads of 10.

Lootas are great but you need rokkits too, so feel free to cut back.

Practically speaking they functionally serve the same purpose so cutting lootas to add rockitts doesn't really net anything it's just moving points around.

The problem with running 10 is you're setting yourself up for an expensive failed leadership test when your opponent kills 3 and then over 100 points of lootas run off the table.

I see the armour plating cropping up now, but nobody really explained why it's worth taking, or maybe I've missed it?

Usually I never see people suggesting paying for armour plating on the vehicles, so I'd love to hear why it's worth it.

Thanks for an interesting discussion, I know I followed it closely to learn myself

Spiky Norman wrote:I see the armour plating cropping up now, but nobody really explained why it's worth taking, or maybe I've missed it?

Usually I never see people suggesting paying for armour plating on the vehicles, so I'd love to hear why it's worth it.

Thanks for an interesting discussion, I know I followed it closely to learn myself

Armor Plating reduces "Crew Stunned" to "Crew Shaken," meaning you can still move. For a mechanized transport mob like this, not moving is not an option. If you're left behind, you're dead and you weaken the hammer blow of orks that will dismount and charge.

@Dash: Sad times are these, when the great autowin mech orks suffer losses and force their warboss to consider previously discarded options like one (1) killa kan, rokkit buggies and 5-man loota squads!

I'm no experienced ork player, even less so with mech, so I have some questions.

1. How many games made you want to rearrange your list? How much depended on special circumstances like bad rolls / match-ups? A lot of people are pointing out that Razorspam wolves are rare, but I think it's safe to say that mech will be pretty common at the GT. How much did you lose to the mech, and how much did you lose to the razorback?

2. How much of your strategy is in the gamer, and how much in the list? If you experienced that your list have no answer to a lot of armies, then it must change. But you've said many times that you've played your original 1850 pt list for a long time and really know how it works. Changing stuff around offsets that. With the last revision you said you felt like playing a gunline, which was unfamiliar (=baaad).

In conclusion I think that if the answer to 1) a few games and to 2) that you get a lot of your power from experience - keep the list exactly as it was before wandering into the lands of doubt. If not, change it.

It didn't take many games actually to decide to switch things up.

It was largely three games that decided me - playing the space wolf razorback spam and an interesting IG list that didn't even use vendettas or manticores.

I know my mechanized orks very well - what they're good at, what they're not. Over the last....few weeks?...my list has undergone revisions that look like this:


1. 100% mechanized force - crossing the board like a wrecking ball, smashing into whatever it gets to. This list is a noob-hammer as someone put it. A very inexperienced player can do very well with this list. In the hands of an experienced player, it will do very well even against experienced gamers. My mechanized orks have smashed 20 year veteran gamers who tailor built demolisher spam lists deal with them. Losses are expected as they cross the board, but their salvation is in having a 4+ KFF save as they move across the board, and the ability to open up vehicles when they get there via boarding planks and grabbin' klaws for land raider pwnage later on.

My previous games against mechanized IG and space wolves were always close affairs. I squeaked out a win, usually by an extremely narrow margin. My games lately have been against probably better opponents with even harder lists. My goal *is* to create a take all comers list, and seeing a player deploy 36" away in a mechanized army and using mobility to keep backing into a corner opposite while laying down enough firepower to take down a vehicle (even a battlewagon) called for a change of tactics - two battlewagons couldn't protect 4 trukks.

2. I did a complete 180 degree flip and went heavily into anti-tank - 15 Lootas, 15 tankbustas....or a squad of 5 lootas and one of 15 tankbustas....more deffkoptas....rokkits and kannons on my battlewagons...1this list did better (obviously) against mechanized lists, and what it did to tyranids was actually funny to watch, but ultimately....my mechanized assault force isn't meant to do this. I could build this list and play it effectively, but in real life, I don't have the models for it. All my boys are built to be slugga/choppas, I have no shoota boys (lots of arms, none built). I don't have rokkit launchas built onto my wagons, just a single big shoota each. Sitting my army back at 24" to shoot, or jumping forward 12" then pausing a full turn to shoot, then jumping forward again just didn't fit within what I like.

3. Current iteration - I backed off the ork gunline - not only did I not have the right models for it (shootas, kans with rokkits) but if I wanted to make an ork gunline, it would start with 3 squads of Lootas, not be trying to interject Lootas into my mechanized orks. I took all the weapons off the vehicles again (except for the obligatory big shoota to get a free pass on weapon destroyed) so that I could regain my mobility. Now I have two battltewagons, two trukks, and a mixed forces component being two squads of Lootas on foot, and a squad of gretchin on foot. I don't really like it. I wouldn't run it except that I'm out of time to make more changes. I spent a couple nights getting yelled at by my wife because our assembly/painting/conversion is a shared job between us and time is getting short for the 25 Lootas and 10 gretchin I need painted and based before the GT and I kept changing things.

For now, I've got to stick with what I have.

I went to the Dollar General yesterday and hunted through the toy isle - I found some cheap toy trucks that have tires appropriately sized tires for ork trukks / buggies. I bought 6 of them for $12. I'll be turning some of my deffkoptas into rokkit buggies. I think that ultimately where my list will end up is with more buggies and possibly deffkoptas, and less Lootas. Perhaps two squads of 5 Lootas. Buggies fit into my theme (mechanized assault) much better.

In a gunline....don't get me wrong. 45 Lootas surrounded by 29 gretchin wailing away at the entire table with supporting shoota boys and some kans with rokkit launchas overwatched by a KFF. That iteration will have to come later.

If you're running out of time your running out of time. Don't feel bad fielding a sub-optimized list (and we're talking tweaks here), any game with physical models cooks down to doing the best with what's available. The only thing that would've gotten my goat is if another player copied your original list and chrushed everyone with it

Best of luck at the GT. It's been funny watching you

1. take some losses
2. admitting that old lessons need to be revised
3. get a trukkload of players jumping on and try to school you as you were a 12-year old (I won't name names, except for Ork Town Grot)

I think it was a grown up thing to do, admitting that the list had to change even after you've previously stomped on the mixed appraoch. Your reasonable, argumentative style is why I follow your threads, so keep it up

I appreciate it. Its hard not to jump on people when they attack you.

I think you should try the list with Tankbustas. There awesome, not to mention obvious.

Take them instead of the second Loota squad, I do beleive they will do more damage.


Are you going to ever make a second ork gunline list? seeing as how much you like them.