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1hadhq wrote:

Who said the 41st millenium is good times?

Putting the native population into "camps" isn't different from other xeno races ( necron gather whom they harvest, orks use the
defeated as workforce, chaos does sacrifice or enslave ) and so its a slow death, instead of the quick one served by the IoM.

Whoever told you the Imperium gives heretics a quick death was lying. Those who are lucky may be shot during the reconquest; the rest will be turned into servitors, enslaved in the mines, or simply handed over to the Inquisition for excruciation.

Basically, if there's ever a war on a planet you're living on, you're boned no matter who wins. Pray to die quickly.

I just want to ask does it bug anyone else that on TT the Tau are SM killers, and can be beaten up pretty bad by an IG novice, but in the fluff it works the other way around? Why couldn't GW at least let the Imperial Guard have this one?

I watched the whole Cronus thing that was posted and I have to say after playing the game quite a bit, they were trying to get the point across that between the evacuation of the planet and the war with all of the other races the native population took a brutal beating and this is what happend. I know it doesn't happen in GW fluff but if the Tau did win Cronus then this one instance doesn't have to be proof of every other case it would just be a unique situation.

The Tau have always seemed to be a good guy version of modern militaries. They would conquer a planet in the same way a modern Super Power (past 200 yrs) would conquer a country.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I just want to ask does it bug anyone else that on TT the Tau are SM killers, and can be beaten up pretty bad by an IG novice, but in the fluff it works the other way around? Why couldn't GW at least let the Imperial Guard have this one?

I watched the whole Cronus thing that was posted and I have to say after playing the game quite a bit, they were trying to get the point across that between the evacuation of the planet and the war with all of the other races the native population took a brutal beating and this is what happend. I know it doesn't happen in GW fluff but if the Tau did win Cronus then this one instance doesn't have to be proof of every other case it would just be a unique situation.

The Tau have always seemed to be a good guy version of modern militaries. They would conquer a planet in the same way a modern Super Power (past 200 yrs) would conquer a country.

so, what your saying is that the tau are actually what we will become? aha! i knew it,

Tau only take planets that dont have huge imperial presence, they kinda go in, beat up on a small agri world with a 10,000 man PDF, and then turn it over to the greater good. Theyve never taken a hive world though, or anyhting with decent military.

1hadhq wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

The clips says the humans who revolted against Tau rule, after having previously accepted it (under duress, perhaps, but then their revolt would also have been under duress by the Imperium) were put into prison camps. It is standard IRL for prisons to be sexually segregated.

Just accept that 40K is a crappy time to be alive.

Who said the 41st millenium is good times?

Putting the native population into "camps" isn't different from other xeno races ( necron gather whom they harvest, orks use the
defeated as workforce, chaos does sacrifice or enslave ) and so its a slow death, instead of the quick one served by the IoM.

>>Putting the native population into "camps" isn't different from other xeno race

Actually it is. There is a difference between a death camp and a prisoner of war camp.

The Tau probably would be open to prisoner exchanges if the Imperium were. If the prisoners can't be exchanged, and can't be released, they have to be kept in the camps forever. Though that's tough for them, you can hardly blame the Tau for taking sensible precautions against a revolt. Maybe the ones who get re-educated are released.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Who said the 41st millenium is good times?

Putting the native population into "camps" isn't different from other xeno races ( necron gather whom they harvest, orks use the
defeated as workforce, chaos does sacrifice or enslave ) and so its a slow death, instead of the quick one served by the IoM.

Whoever told you the Imperium gives heretics a quick death was lying

I did it wrong for the last 1o millenia?
OK. They shall suffer from now on.

Kilkrazy wrote:


Actually it is. There is a difference between a death camp and a prisoner of war camp.

The Tau probably would be open to prisoner exchanges if the Imperium were. If the prisoners can't be exchanged, and can't be released, they have to be kept in the camps forever. Though that's tough for them, you can hardly blame the Tau for taking sensible precautions against a revolt. Maybe the ones who get re-educated are released.

POW camps aren't renown for lack of casualties.
So why do you think T'au have POW camps and not the other type?
They are as singleminded and settled on their "greatar good" as the IoM is on its xenophobia.
So if a Tau ( most likely etheral ) declares the "greatar good" demands the death of millions, would really anyone oppose this?
Tau are trained to follow orders....

You know, one main driving force of the great crusade was to safe humanity from the xenos oppressors.
The time before the Emperor took its place had the shattered remains of mankind shivering in the dark, hunted and
feasted upon and resulted in xenophobia.
Thus, most humans will never accept any non-human as their better and I think the inbreed disgust may not cease to be
in the near future so we'll see poor enslaved wretches under the rule of xenos.

Don't know how effictive the brainwash of the Tau is, but generally a human is to "creative" to strictly follow a concept like the "greatar good" so any human "colony" would end up as rebels.

Because the fluff written by the GW Tau Codex writer says they were written to be different to the rest of the factions.

The Tau even tried for years to make peace with the Orks.

I don't know know why you want the Tau to be like all the other factions. Aren't seven evil factions enough for one game?

Kilkrazy wrote:Because the fluff written by the GW Tau Codex writer says they were written to be different to the rest of the factions.

The Tau even tried for years to make peace with the Orks.

I don't know know why you want the Tau to be like all the other factions. Aren't seven evil factions enough for one game?

Maybe there are NOT 7 evil factions?

Just 3, treacherous chaos marines, the warp creatures known as demons and the dark space elves?

I for one count the others as rather neutral and IMO Gw's chart of opponents for campaigns and its "good/evil" divide
isn't really that perfect. Could throw the space marines and the Imperial guard and the eldar as direct opposites to the evil
in and give the other factions ( nids, orks, necrons, Tau ) a neutral position so they can choose sides.

Also, like to add that every faction is meant to be different, which is not so well represented since some "empires/races"
got split up into several codices.

It's started become an argument about whether the tau take planets "nicely" and I'm not sure what people realisticly expect the Tau to do. If a modern country were to sucessfully invade a country and defeat its army only to be attacked by civilians they aren't just going let it carry on. If your people get attack you imprison the offenders. As with many prisons it will probably be seperated by genders. This isn't unusual and is very mild compared to the same thing happening an imperial planet.

I would say there are two ways the Tau would take a planet. The style would depend on how reasonable the current people occuping the planet are.

Number 1
If the planet is likely to listen to the Tau and there is a chance of taking the planet peacefully.
1. Contact the planet to inform them of your existence.
2. Begin trading with the planet. Offer them limited versions of tau technology. Show them the kind of technology that is most likely to help them in their day to day lives. Do not trade in anything that can be used against the tau and don't give them the most advanced technology in any field.
3. Slowly make the inhabitants aware of the Greater Good idea and its benefits.
4. Offer the rulers of the planet the chance to join the empire. Explain to them that by joining they will get the most up to date technology. They will also get protection ect... Explain to them how their planet will contribute to the greater good.
5. If they refuse warn them that the planet will be invaded. at this stage the Tau may also baricade the planet from outside help as a warning. For a planet dependant imported goods this may be enough.
6. Attack the planet. Destroy strategic point with minmum damage to civilian areas and the structure. Destroy the leaders of the armies and their resources encouraging them to surrender.
7. Ecourage the suviving population to peacefully intergrate.

Number 2
If the planet is never going to join the greater good for example an Ork infested world or a world controlled by chaos.
1. Bomb the planet from orbit aiming for populated areas. Use this to scare people and clear a landing point.
2. Establish a base and defend it. The base would probably be made of structures that are easy to move. Somewhere I read that Tau don't build permanent structures until the planet is sucessfully captured.
3. Exterminate the population with hit and run attacks. Force them to seperate then destroy the small groups of enemies. Keep the damage to the planet minimal.
4. If necesary alter the planets wildlife to something more habitable or useful.
5. Bring in new tau / other members of the empire to repopulate the planet.

The 2nd method is similar to the imperiums technique of purging a planet except the tau are likely to do less damage to the planet itself.

Sorry for such a long post. This is my take from the information given in the tau codex about the way Tau think of other species.

4M2A wrote:It's started become an argument about whether the tau take planets "nicely" and I'm not sure what people realisticly expect the Tau to do. If a modern country were to sucessfully invade a country and defeat its army only to be attacked by civilians they aren't just going let it carry on. If your people get attack you imprison the offenders. As with many prisons it will probably be seperated by genders. This isn't unusual and is very mild compared to the same thing happening an imperial planet.

I would say there are two ways the Tau would take a planet. The style would depend on how reasonable the current people occuping the planet are.

Number 1
If the planet is likely to listen to the Tau and there is a chance of taking the planet peacefully.
1. Contact the planet to inform them of your existence.
2. Begin trading with the planet. Offer them limited versions of tau technology. Show them the kind of technology that is most likely to help them in their day to day lives. Do not trade in anything that can be used against the tau and don't give them the most advanced technology in any field.
3. Slowly make the inhabitants aware of the Greater Good idea and its benefits.
4. Offer the rulers of the planet the chance to join the empire. Explain to them that by joining they will get the most up to date technology. They will also get protection ect... Explain to them how their planet will contribute to the greater good.
5. If they refuse warn them that the planet will be invaded. at this stage the Tau may also baricade the planet from outside help as a warning. For a planet dependant imported goods this may be enough.
6. Attack the planet. Destroy strategic point with minmum damage to civilian areas and the structure. Destroy the leaders of the armies and their resources encouraging them to surrender.
7. Ecourage the suviving population to peacefully intergrate.

Number 2
If the planet is never going to join the greater good for example an Ork infested world or a world controlled by chaos.
1. Bomb the planet from orbit aiming for populated areas. Use this to scare people and clear a landing point.
2. Establish a base and defend it. The base would probably be made of structures that are easy to move. Somewhere I read that Tau don't build permanent structures until the planet is sucessfully captured.
3. Exterminate the population with hit and run attacks. Force them to seperate then destroy the small groups of enemies. Keep the damage to the planet minimal.
4. If necesary alter the planets wildlife to something more habitable or useful.
5. Bring in new tau / other members of the empire to repopulate the planet.

The 2nd method is similar to the imperiums technique of purging a planet except the tau are likely to do less damage to the planet itself.

Sorry for such a long post. This is my take from the information given in the tau codex about the way Tau think of other species.

I second this post. . . very thoughtful and covers the ways the tau take planets

4M2A wrote:Number 2
If the planet is never going to join the greater good for example an Ork infested world or a world controlled by chaos.
1. Bomb the planet from orbit aiming for populated areas. Use this to scare people and clear a landing point.
2. Establish a base and defend it. The base would probably be made of structures that are easy to move. Somewhere I read that Tau don't build permanent structures until the planet is sucessfully captured.
3. Exterminate the population with hit and run attacks. Force them to seperate then destroy the small groups of enemies. Keep the damage to the planet minimal.
4. If necesary alter the planets wildlife to something more habitable or useful.
5. Bring in new tau / other members of the empire to repopulate the planet.

The 2nd method is similar to the imperiums technique of purging a planet except the tau are likely to do less damage to the planet itself.

Well, any evidence the Tau ever wiped out the population of a planet? No?
Any idea, why Brightsword was sacked by the superiors after trying to massacre Orks, proven enemies of the Tau empire?
Do Tau have the numbers to subjugate planet after planet ... even if they were acting counter to the expressed designer notes stating that they don't subjugate? No?
Care to read the paragraph of the designer notes again stating that they don't want to subjugate other races?

Maybe it is time to call all those happy genocide fantasies pure inventions by imaginative Tau haters not compatible with official background.

Because fluff won't let Tau die that means Tau will somehow survive the Hive Fleet.

In addition the Imperium is to busy to kill them, and the last time they tried other matters popped up that forced them to fall back, not to mention the Tau had put up a better fight then they expected.

By the time the Imperium is able to focus on the Tau without worrying about Waghs! and Hive Fleets, and Chaos Hordes, the Tau Empire will have gotten stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"2. Establish a base and defend it. The base would probably be made of structures that are easy to move. Somewhere I read that Tau don't build permanent structures until the planet is successfully captured. "

Not only that but the Tau also don't use defensive structures. It states in the Codex that the only defensive structures the Tau use are bomb shelters. It is more likely that the initial landing party would construct a mirage base, something to make the enemies(whom probably have little to no experience fighting Tau) believe they have a target. From there maneuver around opposing forces and pick off things such as tanks(and other Armor) and artillery. Meanwhile the enemy forces are probably attacking a fake base, and by the time they realize the mistake the main tau force swings back around and decimates there flanks.

You have to remember that the tau military focuses on maneuverability above all else. Other than that, great post!

Well, any evidence the Tau ever wiped out the population of a planet? No?

No but I believe somewhere it said that Tau have decided after many attempts at negotiation the way to deal with orks is to exterminate them. There is no way thte tau are going to be able to peacfully live on a planet when there are also orks around.

Also I think it's quite funny that you said

Maybe it is time to call all those happy genocide fantasies pure inventions by imaginative Tau haters not compatible with official background.

Tau is my main army, I love them for being the "good guys" and enjoy the playstyle more than any of the armies I have played. However you have to be realistic with some groups in 40k extermination is the only way to deal with them. Chaos, Orks and Necrons will never stop trying to kill. They can't be persuaded, bribed, or imprisoned. The only way to stop them is too destroy them all. This isn't any different from how a modern army would act in a similar situation now.


By Establish a base I meant that they would need somewhere to land thir ships and begin to hold suplies for the attack. As Tau don't use the warp and I can't image drop poding FW, I would think that they would unload there soldeiers from landing ships, meaning they need somwhere safe to land. Other than that yeah I agree with you that tau would have basic shelters and use them as much to draw enemies out as much as an actual base.

SideEffect46 wrote:Yeah why does everybody think that the Tau are weak? They have advanced weapons, I mean c'mon it's not like they're totally defenseless.

Of course there not. everybody else just has a million times as many guns as they do.

They may have more guns but that didn't help in the Damocles crusade.

"When the Imperial fleet reached the sept of Dal'yth, however, the crusade ground to a bloody stalemate as the formidable numbers and high technology of the Tau and their Kroot allies thwarted every attempt to capture the system. Many months of terrible fighting ensued with nothing gained on either side. By 742.M41 Imperial Commanders eventually agreed to requests from the Water Caste for peace talks. "



If you read some of the things from that Crusade you can see that the Tau fight different than the Imperium. They fight with their brains rather than brawn.

"circa 750.M41 - During the Damocles Crusade on the world of Sy'l'Kell, an armoured column of the Brimlock 17th Dragoons were in transit to the front lines from their landing zone when they were ambushed by Kroot. The columns forward scouts were eliminated by Kroot Carnivores before they could get a warning off to the regiment following behind. As the main body of the regiment pushed through a narrow forested defile, the Kroot fell on them. Three Kroot kindred were involved in the attack. Surprise was complete, scores were killed in the opening moments of the ambush. Colonel Konstantin Griffin and Commissar Eigerman (alt. Eurbayn) quickly recovered and held the Imperial line long enough to fight clear of the trap. From then on the column was continually harried by the Kroot, until Colonel Griffin linked up with the Space Marines of the Scythes of the Emperor. By the time the columns linked up, the regiment had lost 2 Scout vehicles, 30 Guardsmen and Commissar Eigerman. The Commissar was air lifted out with severe wounds. With the two Imperial forces combined the Kroot faded away deeming the combined strength too much for direct confrontation. With the space marines in hot pursuit of the forces of the first ambush, a second ambush was sprung on the column. This time the Kroot were backed up by Armoured vehicles of the Tau. Colonel Griffin was killed and his column destroyed."

People underestimate how much of an effect having better weaponary has. If a Guardsman is hit by a pulse rifle its pretty much game over for him. Whereas a Tau my shrug off a lasgun shot to the arm a pulse rifle will blow the gaurdsmans arm of.

Not to mention that armour the IG have does not mean anything when fighting tau. Almost all tau weapons have an AP of 5 or lower.

xGhost4000x wrote:They may have more guns but that didn't help in the Damocles crusade.

Had they? The size of a crusade isn't set and some parts of the T'au fluff hints on rather small imperial forces sent.

Well the size of regiments varies and there is no way of knowing how many SM took part but here is the general list (from lexicanum)

Imperial Guard Regiments of the Damocles Crusade

* 17th Brimlock Dragoons 2nd Regiment
* 19th Brimlock Dragoons 1st Regiment

Imperial Navy Ships

* Blade of Woe
* Dutchess McIntyre
* Honour of Damlass
* Lord Cedalion
* Niobe (Overlord class Battlecruiser)

Space Marines

* Iron Hands
* White Scars
* Scythes of the Emperor
* Ultramarines
* Black Templars

Rogue Traders

* Lucian Gerrit of the Arcadius
o Oceanid (Rogue Trader Vessel)



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4M2A wrote:People underestimate how much of an effect having better weaponary has. If a Guardsman is hit by a pulse rifle its pretty much game over for him. Whereas a Tau my shrug off a lasgun shot to the arm a pulse rifle will blow the gaurdsmans arm of.

Not to mention that armour the IG have does not mean anything when fighting tau. Almost all tau weapons have an AP of 5 or lower.

That may be but the ambush was executed by Kroot (the first time, with help from tau the second time) and if I'm not mistaken aren't Kroot guns Flintlocks?
EDIT: Never mind here "Originally a slug-thrower, the weapon was modified by the Tau to fire a charged particle similar to their own pulse rifles. This modification quickly became standard for all Kroot."

I would guess as follows:

An IG regiment can be up to 10,000 fighting men. I doubt that only two regiments would be sent, but if so, it would be 20,000 troops at full strenght.

The contribution of an SM chapter to a crusade is presumably at least one company and at max the whole chapter. Let's assume the five chapters involved contributed a total of 26 companies, each one of 80 SMs taking into account that SM chapters are never at theoretical full strength.

That gives us a force of 20,000 Guard plus logistics, and 2,080 SMs plus logistics.

It doesn't sound like a large enough force to take on the whole Tau Empire. Some Tau sept worlds have millions of FW.

Yeah, but they're just fire warriors, we'll put them out with the water caste. Turning their own weapons against them!

Kilkrazy wrote:I would guess as follows:

An IG regiment can be up to 10,000 fighting men. I doubt that only two regiments would be sent, but if so, it would be 20,000 troops at full strenght.

The contribution of an SM chapter to a crusade is presumably at least one company and at max the whole chapter. Let's assume the five chapters involved contributed a total of 26 companies, each one of 80 SMs taking into account that SM chapters are never at theoretical full strength.

That gives us a force of 20,000 Guard plus logistics, and 2,080 SMs plus logistics.

It doesn't sound like a large enough force to take on the whole Tau Empire. Some Tau sept worlds have millions of FW.

Granted, if your math and reasoning are correct(and they probably are), the Tau very possibly outnumbered the Imperium in this Crusade. But the main reason the Imperium can not take down the Tau is because it would be to costly to alocate enought troops (IG and SM) to a crusade. You would be sending 10s of thousands of SM(maybe more?) and probably Millions of Guardsmen on a crusade, that means all of those units are not able to defend the Imperium. This is the primary reason the Damocles Crusade failed(In my humble opinion). It would cost years maybe decades to crush the entire empire, in that time you still have Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, Chaos, Etc, all knocking at the Imperiums door.

You're quite right, of course.

It is extremely difficult if not impossible for the Imperium to put together a large enough force to take on the whole Tau Empire and continue to support existing commitments elsewhere.

I always imagined that once the Tau had settled on a planet, either after a conflict or through negotiations, they would deport those that had no wish to stay. Sending them back on various civilian ships. Although I would imagine that living on a Tau colony would be a lot better than living on an Imperial world so most would happily stay.

The Tau kill as a last resort. They expand their empire and offer a great deal to those they encounter, often to their detriment. They are naive in the sense that they are a very new race that don't really fathom the Warp and the repercussions it has had and continues to have upon the galaxy. They try to understand the other races which can be hard since most are genocidal monsters. This stops them from getting close and leaving them with half truths and misconceptions. An example would be thinking that the Emperor is an addressable official that can be reasoned with.

xGhost4000x wrote:
You would be sending 10s of thousands of SM(maybe more?) and probably Millions of Guardsmen

Maybe not so many SM and IG are necessary but still correct in reasonig that T'au aren't a primary target.

Colossal Donkey wrote: An example would be thinking that the Emperor is an addressable official that can be reasoned with.

My Emperor IS addressable http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/115025.page
and also super Official and as reasonable as possible in this galaxy of eternal war.

Oh no you don't I know what you're trying to do you Imperial Dog, you're trying to show me an incredibly interesting topic so my Firewarriors are to buys loling to stop the Damocles Crusade 2. Well it WONT work!
...
....
.....
Maybe just a page or two of the responses. Just promise me no Imperium Ships will be heading towards Tau space in the next 15 minutes....

xGhost4000x wrote:Oh no you don't I know what you're trying to do you Imperial Dog, you're trying to show me an incredibly interesting topic so my Firewarriors are to buys loling to stop the Damocles Crusade 2. Well it WONT work!
...
....
.....
Maybe just a page or two of the responses. Just promise me no Imperium Ships will be heading towards Tau space in the next 15 minutes....

Did I mention its your best bet to directly adress our god-emperor and in doing so, none of those pesky etherals can censor your
thougths so you got the chance to ask ANYTHING you ever needed to know......

Damocles crusade 2?
Rather cleanse the nids part XXVIII or so.....