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I've given up on infantry based plasma, nothing but melta guns now.

With the amount of armor that is being thrown around now, and meltaguns being the real only reliable tank killers, I find melta to just be a better choice.

Melta is simply far, far better in many situations.

First of all, the price per shot.

For 30 points, you can get either 3 melta shots, or four plasma shots at the 12" range. By adding 15 points, you can add another plasma, but... I'd rather have the points elsewhere.

Let's compare:

-Melta is str 8, letting it insta-gib a lot that plasma will still keep standing- This means in those super termy-units or equivalent, the 3 wound leader is probably not going to risked in providing ablative wounds. This is a big deal, since at least one/two plasma shots can usually be allotted to multi-wound creatures, weakening its effectiveness.

-Melta is far, far more lethal then plasma to vehicles. Is that unit with 3 plasmas in a rhino really gonna scare that Landraider? What about three meltas? I personally smile when I see my
enemy using plasma, because every plasma they bring is usually that much less anti-tank. Melta is also extremely helpful versus mid-tier armour (12-13) and EXTREMELY helpful versus AV 13 walkers. Autocannons and other Str.7 cannot reliably stop AV13 walkers, and three str8 powerfist hits isn't that great against it- getting in and popping the bastich with some melta is a great choice. The +1 on the damage chart is also great against those pesky vehicles that ignore stunned/shaken or force you to roll multiple times on the damage table.

-Melta is an ASSAULT weapon, which makes it far more strategically versatile when compared to the plasma. this is a big thing, especially with the prevalence with super-grit (boltgun/bolt-pistol and CCW). When you're in that magic 12" sweet spot, it is many times in your best interest to get the assault off rather then weather one, especially if you're facing a shooty army. I'd rather get stuck in rather then be shot to hell then be assaulted with a mop-up unit.

-Doesn't get hot. This is actually a pretty big thing. I am a fan of my guys not dying idiotically- losing 30 points because of poor luck isn't fun, and isn't spontaneous- I like my reward to be
proportionate to the risks I am taking.

-There is only really one time when a comparative point value of plasma is better then melta on infantry- and that is-
1. If the unit has been static that turn (sacrificing mobility for two plasma shots)- and the target is 13"-24" away. Other wise I'd rather take three Str8 Ap1 shots from an assault weapon
with melta rules rather then Four Str 7 ap 2 shots that might kill my own guys. Also, if they enemy will never get within 12" of the plasma squad. Even then the glorious plasma might
kill some of your guys- yay.

There are only two times when I'd suggest plasma-
1. Cannons aren't optimal on infantry (and are expensive) but they can do damage. The only problem is that the units it is meant to counter (3+/2+ armour save guys) are usually meched
up until they get within 12" or, because they usually aren't as numerically rich as horde armies, can easily spread themselves far enough apart so that you can only hit a single guy with
each blast. Its also heavy, meaning you will have to have that unit stay static. Marines are used to facing battle-cannons and demolisher shells, any marine player worth his salt will
position his units either in cover or to mitigate wounds. Plasma Cannons on vehicles are nice though, simply because they can be fired on the move and lose the "gets hot!" rule.

2. Vehicles in general. IF you really need a vehicle that is explicitly anti-mech, and have anti-tank and horde covered elsewhere.

3. If you ONLY play non-mech space marine armies. Of course, if this is the case, why do you even need plasma? Just Roflstomp him with lasguns.

Honestly, melta is just far more versatile. Then again, I hate boring, static, sit-in place armies, so anything that can fire at full efficiency on the move while not robbing me of any potential strategies is a big plus in my book.

A well placed volley can devastate nearly everything. Worth the ones like on the Blood Feeder IMO.

Mekniakal wrote:

-Melta is far, far more lethal then plasma to vehicles. Is that unit with 3 plasmas in a rhino really gonna scare that Landraider? What about three meltas? I personally smile when I see my
enemy using plasma, because every plasma they bring is usually that much less anti-tank. Melta is also extremely helpful versus mid-tier armour (12-13) and EXTREMELY helpful versus AV 13 walkers. Autocannons and other Str.in,

IMHO I'd prefer plasma to use against light vehicles.
I much prefer two str 7 shots to one strenght 8.
Alhough yes, melta is AP1, you still need to be 6" away to get the 2D6 armor pen roll.
Meltas have a nasty habit of never hitting in my army.

With 2 plas shots, 1 will at least hit most of the time, with a good possiblity of two hits.

However, there is no comparison between a melta's anti heavy vehicle capabilities and a plas anti heavy vehicle capabilites.
Melta easily takes the cake in this category.

With the new wave of Horde armys (I hate tyrvies!), I've been fielding P.Cannons with my tac squads, and it is been beautiful in combination with a vindicator with 2 Pred anihilators gaurding it's side armor (TL Las, H.B Sponsons).

Also, I've been fielding pure P.Cannons with my dreadnoughts recently as well (Dark Angels get them for free), and they have been helping when I have 2 walking down the flanks.

makr wrote:FRFSRF is only lasguns, yes.

Also, chance not to overheat is 5/6 * 5/6 = .6944444
So, you'll only overheat about 30.5% of the time with rapid fire.

If FRFSRF did affect plasma guns, I would be all over them...

There is actually one use of plasma guns that I'm fond of though. Take them in a Veteran squad with Harker, infiltrate 18" away from your target. Combine movement and the Callidus Assassin's A Word in Your Ear and you get a rapid-fire fusilade off on turn one. That'll be 3.3 dead MEQs, thank you. Factor in lasguns and the Heavy Bolter from Harker it's a total of 4.7 dead MEQs - you stand a reasonable chance of wiping a combat squad.

I guess my friend has been cheated by me, anyways just reread FRFSRF and I stand corrected, even so 6 shots+1 in rapid fire range is rape on termies.

The one key thing to remember about Plasma is that it typically has 3x the chances to put wounds on a target as Melta.

Meltaguns have 1 shot @ 0-12". After that you are either charging or being charged.
Plasmaguns have 1 shot @ 13-24" which is typically outside of most armies assault range. Note this shot may be against a transport but S7 is still a valid threat.
Plasmaguns also have 2 shots @ 0-12" and against everything besides T6+ units, it will wound the same as a Meltagun (2+ and no armor save).

Meltaguns are great weapons but can't compete with the sheer volume of potential wounds that a Plasmagun can generate.

Plasma is very worth it in some situations.

The Leman Russ Executioner with 5 Plasma Cannons is expensive but it just cleans up Marines who are clustered because they fell out of transports or deepstruck and the Inquisitor and Mystics saw them.

Plasma guns are expensive but are good when you can take multiples in the same squad like in Inquisitor + warrior squads, Veterans, or Chaos Marines. Multiple plasma guns rapid firing really puts the hurt on Non Assault Terminators, Marines or MCs. They can also fire out to 24 inches and hurt monsterous creatures, marines that fell out of transports or maybe damage light vehicles. Overheats do suck but can be worth it.

Plasma Pistols are almost never worth it. You just don't want to risk losing your squad leader who often gives you a leadership bonus and often is the carrier of the power fist. You also typically only fire them 1-3 times a game with their 12 inch range.

The Razorback with Las cannon and TL Plasma gun is pretty good also. 2 weapons for weapon destroyed with las cannon for distance and rapid fire tl plasma that can't overheat for close up work.

Then there's stuff like Plasma Pistols on assault-oriented squads like Berzerkers, Assault Marines, etc.

Being able to crack a transport before assaulting the passengers within is handy for a squad that might not be able to co-ordinate the same task with a dedicated anti-tank unit.

Plasma Cannons on Dreadnoughts are a think of beauty, especially when a Chaos Dreadnought loses it and blasts the nearest enemy with two Plasma Cannon shots!

Nurglitch wrote:Then there's stuff like Plasma Pistols on assault-oriented squads like Berzerkers, Assault Marines, etc.

I can see the benefits of the zerker PP. I just can't justify taking the three pistols (to stand a good chance of cracking a rhino) at 45pts in a squad already around 250.

totally yes! 3 Plasmaguns in a CCS with medipack in Chimera well worth the points.

It depends on what armour save you have and sometimes how lucky you are, I have lucky units that kill everything and unlucky units that always fail, one is my acoltye with plasma pistol, he is 8pts, his gun is 15, he ALWAYS gets a one and then fails his 6+ save.

[edit] DAMN someone beat me to the pic :( [edit]

yes. yes they are.

I personally always try and take a plasma on my tactical marines, i'm assuming CSM will be similar.
After all, you've got a 1/6 chance on each shot of wounding yourself (at AP-, so it's a lower chance of actually dying), but assuming BS4 you've got a 4/6 chance of hitting the target. against the average T4 target you've then got a 5/6 chance of wounding, and at AP2 saves don't mean much either.

i expect my maths is completely wrong here, so disregard everything i'm saying here

Nurglitch wrote:
Being able to crack a transport before assaulting the passengers within is handy for a squad that might not be able to co-ordinate the same task with a dedicated anti-tank unit.

Except you can't assault a different unit than the one you shot at.

The rule book says you can shoot at a transport and then assault the passengers who get out.

Naturally if you fire RF weapons you can't assault

Grey Templar wrote:The rule book says you can shoot at a transport and then assault the passengers who get out.

Naturally if you fire RF weapons you can't assault

BGB or Codex? I was under the impression that RAW you cannot assault a different target than you shot at, but I'll check my BGB.

Page 67... I think?

In my opinion, plasma weapons are really useful. After all, only infantry can be damaged if their plasma weapons overheat, so a vehicle with a plasma weapon can be really useful.

The PC on Bjorn hardly ever misses [BS-6]

I have 1 Plasmagun in my Chaos Marine list. It's actually killed a couple wave serpents with fortune on them

I think theyre okay if you have enough enough melta elsewhere to provide some Ap2 support.

In my Impierial Tigers I have
Command Squad with 3 PG
3 Tac with 1 PP, 1 PG, and 1 PC Each
2 Assuatl Squads with 3 PP Each
2 Dev Squads with 4 PC each Each

Thats
9 Plasma Pistols
6 Plasam Guns
11 Plasma Cannons

And to repeat

use da plasma!