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2k points and you only get Mephiston, 20 death company (tooled up I'm assuming) and 9 dreads? What long range anti tank (including assault cannons and multi-meltas, and if the magna-grappler is 24" that too) do you have?

I would love to play against that list. TL pulse lasers will knock you down fast enough while my hawks keep you running relatively away. Mephiston will be shut down (and killed) reliably enough by Runes of Warding, and if need be will be shot down in a turn from concentrated fire from pulse lasers and fire dragons. And any dread without a power weapon of some sort is just begging for Fuegan's attention.

My only worry is that your death company have jet packs which means one of my vehicles has to spend time luring it away. But due to forcing you to move as fast as possible, if you have jump packs I'll be throwing you into terrain as much as possible.

I've played dreads before. I've played death company before. I'm not expecting too much. No-man's-land is 24" wide, and it'll take you 3 turns to get to me if you're moving in a straight line. I can't really see how this list is such a big problem other than by being something new.

I agree with some of the posters before me, keep the "competitive" lists in competitions and the "Casual" lists for friendly games. I would not mind going against a list like that, as long as I was told that that was the way the game was going to be played. But if someone says "hey, want to play some 40K," rolls up with this kind of list, and ROFLSTOMPS me, I would be pissed and not play with that guy for a long time.

I have no problem with losing, most of my most memorable games have been me losing, but they were fun as hell (and some of them even had me dying of laughter all the while). But like others have said, I do not want the RPS element in my casual games.

I say: use the damn list and if your opponents are too lazy to try and think up ways to beat it, then too bad for them.

Now, if you are afraid of losing friends because of the list, then shelf it, because it can't be nearly as important as any sort of friendship.

Depends on the list. If it requires tactics then it's all good. If it is just stupids OP and has only 1 tactic it will get boring very fast. That list is in the middle, some armies aren't going to stand a chance while others will rip it apart. I personally would love to face you with that list. My Tau can easily bring down your dreads which leaves you with very little however IG and Orks could be wrecked by that list.

Any self-respecting I list has a decent number of Lascannons which only need a 3 to glance at 48inches. This just does not work against any army that has thought their strategy through.

The list has some glaring weaknesses, and can be beaten, as others have pointed out. If you do get tabled, ask for a rematch next week and turn up with a vulkan melta spam list (or equivalent) , and do your best to table him back. It's a great example of the paper scissors rock type army.

grrr

I don't mean this to sound like a boasting "My army can beat your army", but any army I build can take 9 AV 12 dreadnoughts that have to run in and don't have guns. My 1500 point DE army could take this army handily, let alone at 2k.

At 2000 points, you should have appropriate anti tank for something like this should it show up (it will) and since you're not even drop podding them (from what I can tell from your army description), where is the issue?

A footslogging army with a brick of DC (I assume Jump packs) with mephiston, and a ton of AV doesn't sound too dangerous. From your army description, it also sounds like your ranged capability is almost non existent, let alone your ranged anti - tank.

I think your army may catch some people off guard, but really. I don't think it's a morale crushing army.

However, to add a personal anecdote, I have a 1500 point Chaos list with Two flying Daemon Princes, 3 CC dreadnoughts, 3 CC defilers and two troops in rhinos and I experience the same results you do. I often times to table at those points, but few people have fun playing against it. Out of 5 games with the army, one person has enjoyed it.

Ail-Shan wrote:2k points and you only get Mephiston, 20 death company (tooled up I'm assuming) and 9 dreads? What long range anti tank (including assault cannons and multi-meltas, and if the magna-grappler is 24" that too) do you have?

I would love to play against that list. TL pulse lasers will knock you down fast enough while my hawks keep you running relatively away. Mephiston will be shut down (and killed) reliably enough by Runes of Warding, and if need be will be shot down in a turn from concentrated fire from pulse lasers and fire dragons. And any dread without a power weapon of some sort is just begging for Fuegan's attention.

My only worry is that your death company have jet packs which means one of my vehicles has to spend time luring it away. But due to forcing you to move as fast as possible, if you have jump packs I'll be throwing you into terrain as much as possible.

I've played dreads before. I've played death company before. I'm not expecting too much. No-man's-land is 24" wide, and it'll take you 3 turns to get to me if you're moving in a straight line. I can't really see how this list is such a big problem other than by being something new.

I have to agree here. As an advocate for the people who want to take whatever army they please, I can't help but note the entire base of troops is T4 3+ FNP. You've surely fought plague marines before? Ordenance drops them like a bad habit. A few Leman Russes would chew this list up and spit it out.

A single Leman Russ Executioner would likely demolish the 20 man squad, and then it's just a case of using all your anti tank to wipe out the dreadnoughts.

It's not a be-all-end-all list of doom and destruction. It can only force draws in objectives if you play smartly.

Wether or not it is fun to play against is down to the individual player, of course.

Someone might have already commented as such, but depending on your gaming group you might offer to play a game, then play another but switch armies. It'll help you out to see weaknesses in your army & same for your opponent.

Slarg232 has a good point; talk to your opponent. Our local group has players who each have a number of armies so we're always trying things out. Taking the time to establish your "intent" before a game is always a good idea. If I'm running a "Punch-in-the-face" army, I'll say so & if its just a fun fluffy or whatever list, I'll say that too.

how can you get 9 deadnoughts?

I think the list is great, but I like extreme lists. It'd be fun to play against.

Seems like the difference between casual vs. tourney lists. Many tournament lists can destroy certain opponents or lists and wipe them off the board as well. The challenge against your list is to stay alive and put one single scoring unit near any objective, table quarter, etc. to win.

My guess is that you've surprised a lot of people and they are reacting to that surprise. Your list is ultra killy, but give a veteran a while to think about it and he will keep everything in reserve, outflank anything he can, run away and in circles, etc. to stay alive. Sometimes a draw is a victory against your bane.

Quite a while ago I played Magic. A good friend and I came up with Land Destruction decks in our area. We perfected them and brought them out only for tournaments. I know for a fact that we drove some casual players out of the tournaments and the game itself. Several didn't mind losing to us, they expected it, but when Land Destruction stopped them from doing anything, they did not enjoy the game. They felt like some of your opponent's sound.

I myself have been on the receiving end of it too (Nurgle is my bane) and have felt that same frustration. Adapting is key. Winning every game isn't realistic. Knowing those two things keeps me going.

Girthman wrote:how can you get 9 deadnoughts?

BA codex allows for 3 dreadnoughts in elite slots (furiosos or furioso librarians). You can take up to 5 death company dreadnoughts in troops slots if you take enough regular death company ( 1 dread per 5 death company marines) and then you can have up to three regular shooty dreads in heavy support. Max is 11.

In all likelihood, some of the people you're playing against are fairly new to the game, and are still working on their first army. I say this because most people I've met in the hobby are still fairly new and working on their first army. While I agree in principle that you can bring whatever list you want, I have to point out that there's a difference between "allowed to" and "should." All of the "they should be able to deal with it, and if they can't they can change their armies" stuff doesn't really account for the fact that significantly changing one's army costs a fair amount of money and time. As a daemon player, I could easily take this list out if I brought a significantly different army from what I currently have. Doing so would take about $300 and about a years' worth of assembling and painting at the rate I'm currently going. Needless to say, I don't really have $300 sitting around, and I've already got enough of a backlog for painting.

I'll accept that my inability to deal with such a list is really my own fault. I got into daemons because I liked the idea of them, and got what units I have largely because I thought the concepts were interesting and I liked how they looked. My list is, therefore, gimpy, and next time I get an army I'll put much more strategic thought into unit choices. That said, I still like to play with the list I have. I lose frequently, but I've never been in a game where I don't feel like I have any chance at all, even with my gimpy list. I like feeling like, if I'm both good and lucky with the army I have, I could actually pull off a win or at least a tie. I can't imagine anybody who'd enjoy knowing from turn 1 that, no matter what he did, he couldn't keep himself from being slaughtered.

I suspect that's what your opponents have been like as well. It may be entirely their own fault that they can't deal with this rock-paper-scissors list. But that doesn't mean that they should feel obliged to try. If this was your first and only list, and there was one guy around whose list reliably tabled you by turn 2 or 3, would you play it against him repeatedly?

WGXH wrote:A single Leman Russ Executioner would likely demolish the 20 man squad, and then it's just a case of using all your anti tank to wipe out the dreadnoughts.

Spread the DC out in a line formation. You have no reason not to, they are your only troops. That Executioner suddenly kills 1 DC per turn.

ph34r wrote:

WGXH wrote:A single Leman Russ Executioner would likely demolish the 20 man squad, and then it's just a case of using all your anti tank to wipe out the dreadnoughts.

Spread the DC out in a line formation. You have no reason not to, they are your only troops. That Executioner suddenly kills 1 DC per turn.

More like 2 with a good scatter, from each 5....terrain requirements will almost certainly mean the line wont last, either.

Actually.. you don't need anything to entice jerks to act like jerks...

I don't think this list is that strong (depending on how the dreds are kitted out). It seams like an old armored column, but less mobile and versital.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think this list is that strong (depending on how the dreds are kitted out). It seams like an old armored column, but less mobile and versital.

I agree with DaveL. I wouldn't like my friends to come in with a list that expects me to tailor my army specifically to them.

Of course it may be that your army is quite beatable without replacing my entire army (considering your friends only played one game each). I have no idea.
I'd at least play a bunch of games and try different strategies before jumping to any conclusions like that.

Anyway I just really don't like the attitude that some people have of "Well, go buy $300 worth of new models specifically to combat this one list, you crybaby". That's really not a viable option for many people playing in a casual setting (and by "casual" I mean "not spending life savings and 100% free time on the hobby").

Obviously in a tournament setting, it's another story. But among friends who are just trying to enjoy the game together, forcing them to go buy a bunch of models just to humor your whims is a bit messed up.

Just in principle anyway; I have no idea if that's actually the case with this army (or any army for that matter).

This reminds me of when I first started playing. I had a friend of mine that loved Landraiders and would always take at least 2 of them. As you can imagine as a starting player at first I was only buying the basics like most my SM squads only had flamers/ML (at the time that is all they came with) and some rhinos and one predator. I lost a lot. Granted back then you could kill a LR with a ML but it was rare. In the end my first army (SM) now has 8 Lascannon totting marines and a bunch of melta gun totting marines as well and 2 all LC annihilator predators. But the point is what my friend did. After like my 10th loss or something, he saw that I was really not having any fun anymore and I was losing interest in the game, and seeing that having fun for both people was more fun than just winning, he started leaving some LRs home and brought in more rhinos. He still always brought 1 LR, but the game instantly became more enjoyable for me, and years latter I am still playing and having fun. I take this principle with me everytime I see a player having a hard time. I bought all the anti-tank heavy guns eventually just so my friend would not feel bad when playing his favorite unit.

The point is responsibility for having fun is found in both players together and not just up to one person having to have to find a way to *make* it enjoyable. No list is automatically "Bad". It all depends on your local meta. If in your local area you can build a list that is very difficult to beat due to it having a counter that is rare among your play group is fine. And it is fun to do that to bring a challenge to a game. But its a line that must be walked between bringing a challenge for the enjoyment of a good challenge and then bringing it every time just to win for the sake of winning and 'forcing' your friends to have to spend money just to play you. In the end, people could stop playing you with that army and then all of a sudden you are not the one having fun anymore, which is a very real possibility. Call them cry babies all you want, but the whole point of the game is to have *fun*, and if you are not having fun, then why play.

OP who likes to be tabled?.. no one. All these WAAC posters would still likely get frustrated if you tabled them. Despite all their tactical brilliance lol.

The way I see it you can either win games or keep acquaintances.. Shouldn't lose friends over a list..

Lets say I have a battle force army because I am poor.. I meet your army and am tabled.. with my load out there is buckleys chance of killing (I might still win the mission but I can't kill you stuff) your army. The game to me is now not fun.. Because I know my list is so crappy it can't kill yours. I begin to complain or refrain from playing you. Thats what I think is happening to you.

Now the competitive types on this forum get off on being the underdog and edging out a draw.. But I'll tell you I'm not like that. I want my guys to kill your guys. If that is now impossible, I've lost interest. If I just win by objectives because you cant even hold any the victory would feel hollow to me. I speak from experience here as my friend has an all tank IG list the laughs at my cheapo marines.

Anyways best of luck,

Wait... Objective games are based on controlling more objectives than the other opponent. How is playing the game as it's intended to be played less fun?

With a mobile list with lots of troops you actually have an advantage over the OP's list. If you insist on charging straight into his teeth that's entirely on you.

Also, a Battleforce comes with meltaguns IIRC. To say that you have to spend money to beat a list like this is kind of a strectch. If you are playing 2000 point games you've most likely got a few options to draw from.

People should just make sure they understand what they're getting into before the dice start rolling. If someone just wants to have a fun, fluffy game that's fine! Just make sure the guy that's unloading his WAAC army knows it. The point of the game is to enjoy yourself after all.

Monster Rain wrote:Also, a Battleforce comes with meltaguns IIRC. To say that you have to spend money to beat a list like this is kind of a strectch. If you are playing 2000 point games you've most likely got a few options to draw from.

SM or IG battleforces may come with meltaguns. Battleforces as a whole tend to be awful. IIRC the Eldar battleforce gives you half a legal squad of dire avengers, some guardians with a heavy weapon platform, and a war walker.
I've got an expensive army (mostly metal), but even buying some stuff second-hand I've paid easily over $350 on a 1750-pt army without any options.
And yes, again I can accept my army choice was my doing. I'll go with plastic in the future. But not everybody can use their battleforce to get cheaper armies that are still good.

Does an army built to table entice people to act like Jerks?

"A pendulum that's pushed always swings back"

Unit spam is for losers. It's the easy road to achieve one or two wins, after a few wins people either won't play you again or they'll be forced to build equally boring lists.
It leads to boring monodimensional games, and is clearly breaking the most important rule of the BRB for not being fun. If you rob people of their fun you can bet on them trying to spoil yours.

I don't think anyone enjoys being tabled. And a list that specifically does this should not be allowed. Just because you can do it does not mean you should do it. There is always the "SPIRIT OF THE GAME" rule. I don't think what you have made really plays to any spirit. I mean you can justify it however you want. But if you ever take an army and nothing in it can score. I would say you have gone the path of the MUNCHKIN.

Just wanted to post an update, I took the list againt much more experienced players, 1 of them even brought a tailored IG list, the non ig player had 1 predator left at the end of the game (rolled a KP mission unfortunatly and he rolled horribly for his first turn shooting), The IG player had similar first turn luck on a spearhead seizeground for his first turn, (both went first). He even played with some reserve to hope for late game entry and force a tie. It would have worked if the game ended on turn 5, as that reserve unit had 1 Guardsman left alive.

Turns out if you have 1 turn of bad first turn shooting the army can prettty much have a high chance of hitting your line.

The 2000pts List I Run:

Mephiston

3x Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Fists, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Magna Grapple

20x Deathcompany, 2 Powerfist, 2x Inferno Pistol, 18 Bolters

4x Death company Dreadnought with Blood Talons

2x Dreadnought with 2 TL Autocannon

Find someone that knows how to play that plays Vulkan Marines and run against their tourney list and post a batrep of that!

What was the IG player running? If it wasn't a bunch of Vendettas full of Melta Vets it wasn't tailored against you. I mean list tailoring is for losers, IMHO, but since you said it was tailored I was just wondering what he had.

Monster Rain wrote:Find someone that knows how to play that plays Vulkan Marines and run against their tourney list and post a batrep of that!

What was the IG player running? If it wasn't a bunch of Vendettas full of Melta Vets it wasn't tailored against you. I mean list tailoring is for losers, IMHO, but since you said it was tailored I was just wondering what he had.

He had a company Squad with Straken, and another Company Command Squad (Which had 3 Plasma Guns) both in chimeras.
3 Infantry Platoons, The command Squads had Chimeras and 4 Meltaguns. 1 of the Platoon had 3 Autocannons + 3 Grenade Launchers (1x Commissar and 1x VoxCaster) (Those didn't Blob up, 1 Unit was in reserve) 2 of the other Platoons had 3 Lascannons + 3 Grenade Launcers (1x Commissar and 1x Voxcaster).

He also ran 2 Leman Russes seperated.

By the start of turn 2 of his shooting phase, all he had done was immobilize 1 DC dreadnought, his lascannons were shooting duds and his meltasquads did manage to blow up 2 Dreadnoughts by turn 3.