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visavismeyou wrote:

hamsterwheel wrote:Drift is not defined by the game. I believe you're confusing RAW with RAI. If these were all RAW arguments, you wouldn't have a thread.

Is the word "Drift" in the rule? Yes. Thus my argument is a RAW argument and is correct. Your position is tantamount to saying the word "Drift" has no meaning unless defined in the rulebook, this makes no sense because it is not a legal document and not to mention not everything has to be defined even in a legal document.

It is a permissive rule set, it doesn't tell you you can use the dictionary definition for drift so you can't. Besides you can drift a distance regain control and then move as normal, by definition you still drifted so you really have no point.

hamsterwheel wrote:Apparently Merriam and webster would disagree as explode is not defined as dropping a large blast marker and removing a model.

Stop dropping context.

He's perfectly right, the rules define what to do when you explode you're trying to add new context where there is one and pretending there is only one definition to use. Besides many things explode but aren't totally destroyed, such as a bullet exploding from a gun, not to mention that in some explosions the device is damaged but intact and still has unspent explosive left that could explode again.

hamsterwheel wrote:Now if the rules don't tell us exactly what to do then we have to apply RAI to the situation since the RAW is insufficient to answer any questions about the rule.

See, this is the problem, you're still expecting the rules to be a legal document and that expectation is unreasonable. I am making a RAW argument, the words as they are on the page mean something, no intention, no inference. you have context dropped yet again and furthermore you completely made something up: I never said the dictionary would say anything about a blast marker thus your point is completely null. The only RAW argument that can be made is about the words on the page.

To say that the spore makes intentional, tactical and exerted movement violates the word "Drift" and to say you leave the model on the table violates the word "explodes".

Except that by RAW you aren't allowed to interpret things as it is a permissive rules set that defines exactly what it means. In this case drift means move 1d6" and if you have any left over move as normal because you're infantry. Same for explode, it says place a blast marker and follow the rules for that. It says nothing about removing a model, or worse yet causing the model to explode on the table top for real.

flingitnow, my ability to use logical deduction that the spore mine SHOULD be removed when it explodes shows that I am not playing via literalism, or playing pure RAW, I am playing the game the way I think it was intended. Cruddace changed a LOT of things in this codex, and spore mines being more active IS in fact one of them. There are no rules that limit their ability to assualt, and the only conflict with moving the last of their normal 6" move in the movement phase is an order of operations issue, However, many things in the game imply simultaneous occurance, and this is IMO one of them.

You'll notice I've not argued against eth assault move for me it is unclear as to the intention thus I'd tend to follow the RaW in this instance. But the 6" move with d6" of it random is a huge stretch that:

a) Doesn't work by RaW for all but 1 spore mine

b) Is obviously against the RaI as it tells you how they move if you were intended to make the further movement it owuld have made this clear.

Demogerg wrote:It pains me to have to resort to simple algebra equasions to make my point here.

It doesn't pain me to point out that you dont know what you're talking about.

Demogerg wrote:Also, my disagreement is that you are trying to set up game terms for fluff descriptions and create rules based on them.

No fluff was ever used.

visavismeyou wrote:D6 scatters, plus 6 infantry move, plus 6 assault = up to 18, as i said, this is what i'm arguing against... This is what other people believe, not me.

how does your foot taste?

Except this is not what people are arguing. People are arguing that you drift D6" then can move the rest of your movement wherever you want, UP TO A MAX OF 6" in the Movement Phase.

Gwar! wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:D6 scatters, plus 6 infantry move, plus 6 assault = up to 18, as i said, this is what i'm arguing against... This is what other people believe, not me.

how does your foot taste?

Except this is not what people are arguing. People are arguing that you drift D6" then can move the rest of your movement wherever you want, UP TO A MAX OF 6" in the Movement Phase.

yes and this, as I already demonstrated, violates the movement rules. Thus you cant be arguing this, you have to be arguing up to 18 inches most of which is intentional, tactical, exerted movement.

visavismeyou wrote:

Norade wrote:
Vis proves he can't do math or argue...

Here is how you move spore mines.

x=the result of the first d6

d6+(x-6) = 6
If in assault range add up to 6" to assault.

and you prove that you dont know what you're talking about.

I'm sorry that the math is too hard for you, but it actually says exactly what you do. Perhaps the special ed teacher can find the smaller words to help explain it to you.

visavismeyou wrote:get to move up to 18 inches?! Most of which are dictated by the player?! This does not make any sense and violates the codex.

D6 scatters, plus 6 infantry move, plus 6 assault = up to 18, as i said, this is what i'm arguing against... This is what other people believe, not me.

Except that the d6" scatter isn't additional movement instead it is one part of the mine's normal movement. As for who's arguing things, you're the one I see typing, not somebody else so concede or put up with being called on your BS.

how does your foot taste?

I don't know, you're in a better position to tell than I am.

I found his first. For you gwar.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you cannot move one unit a fraction of their allowed movement, e.g. 3", move another unit, then go back and move the first unit their remaining move allowance (e.g. 3" again)

visavismeyou wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you cannot move one unit a fraction of their allowed movement, e.g. 3", move another unit, then go back and move the first unit their remaining move allowance (e.g. 3" again)

If you only drop one sore mine you can as it would be the same movement. Try again.

Norade wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you cannot move one unit a fraction of their allowed movement, e.g. 3", move another unit, then go back and move the first unit their remaining move allowance (e.g. 3" again)

If you only drop one sore mine you can as it would be the same movement. Try again.

The rules are not conditional, it either works or it doesnt, thus, your admission here demonstrates you're wrong.


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Norade wrote:Except that the d6" scatter isn't additional movement

Its an extraordinary claim, thus it is, as gwar and others admit, different than the normal phase's move.


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Norade wrote:It is a permissive rule set, it doesn't tell you you can use the dictionary definition for drift so you can't. Besides you can drift a distance regain control and then move as normal, by definition you still drifted so you really have no point.

Your position is that words outside the rulebook dont have meanings...

visavismeyou wrote:

Norade wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you cannot move one unit a fraction of their allowed movement, e.g. 3", move another unit, then go back and move the first unit their remaining move allowance (e.g. 3" again)

If you only drop one sore mine you can as it would be the same movement. Try again.

The rules are not conditional, it either works or it doesnt, thus, your admission here demonstrates you're wrong.

One Spore Mine in play could arguably allow itself further movement.
Two or more would allow one Spore Mine further movement.

You must drift all of your Spore Mines at the beginning of your turn. Drifting a Spore Mine and then attempting to continue it's movement as a normal model would be taking you out of that 'beginning of the movement phase' clause, unless it was the last Spore Mine to drift - in that case, it would straddle 'the beginning of the movement phase' and 'the movement phase'.

With three Spore Mines you would-
-roll the drift move for Spore Mine #1, then move it as indicated. You must then drift Spore Mine #2, you cannot voluntarily move Spore Mine #1. That would be 'the movement phase', and Spore Mine #2 forces you to drift it first.
-roll the drift move for Spore Mine #2, then move it as indicated. You must then drift Spore Mine #3, you cannot voluntarily move Spore Mine #2.
-roll the drift move for Spore Mine #3, then move it as indicated. Having finished your compulsory 'start of the movement phase' actions, you could move Spore Mine #3 the rest of it's 6" infantry move*.

You cannot then move Spore Mine #1 or Spore mine #2 - they have moved this turn, and so cannot move again.

*depending on your interpretation of the Spore Mine rules.

visavismeyou wrote:

Norade wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you cannot move one unit a fraction of their allowed movement, e.g. 3", move another unit, then go back and move the first unit their remaining move allowance (e.g. 3" again)

If you only drop one spore mine you can as it would be the same movement. Try again.

The rules are not conditional, it either works or it doesnt, thus, your admission here demonstrates you're wrong.

The text you quoted to me shows that so long as you need only move one spore mine it works just fine. You may not change models, but if the spore scatters 3" randomly then I move it that distance followed immediately in a direction of my choice. No other model moved between these two steps so I can do it.

Norade wrote:Except that the d6" scatter isn't additional movement

Its an extraordinary claim, thus it is, as gwar and others admit, different than the normal phase's move.

Except that it says you move a random amount but doesn't say that may not move as an infantry model. It simply says that as part of your infantry move you most move d6" in a random direction. Infantry move 6" a turn thus any roll of less than six gives you movement you may control. This has to provision that only the last spore moved may act in this fashion because of the wording of the random movement rule.

Norade wrote:It is a permissive rule set, it doesn't tell you you can use the dictionary definition for drift so you can't. Besides you can drift a distance regain control and then move as normal, by definition you still drifted so you really have no point.

Your position is that words outside the rulebook dont have meanings...

They have meanings, but they are not able to be used in the playing of the game. For example the model explodes, by the dictionary must I physical blow my model up? If I fail does the rule work or does the game hang? If the model is exploded how do I determine where to place my blast marker?

Norade wrote:He's perfectly right, the rules define what to do when you explode you're trying to add new context where there is one and pretending there is only one definition to use. Besides many things explode but aren't totally destroyed, such as a bullet exploding from a gun, not to mention that in some explosions the device is damaged but intact and still has unspent explosive left that could explode again.

Wow, you completely blundered here. A bullet explodes... FROM THE GUN... ever hear of a prepositional phrase before? the bullet isn't doing the exploding... the propellant is, and it is completely annihilated... The spore mine explodes ("It explodes") according to the rules, thus, it is completely annihilated as all mines that have ever existed and can be used as an analogy to explain to you how simple this is have ever been made.

Now, you bring up a gun and "Other devices" while trying to explain something... I am talking about the rules as written... Who is attempting to add a new context?

Norade wrote:Except that by RAW you aren't allowed to interpret things as it is a permissive rules set that defines exactly what it means. In this case drift means move 1d6" and if you have any left over move as normal because you're infantry. Same for explode, it says place a blast marker and follow the rules for that. It says nothing about removing a model, or worse yet causing the model to explode on the table top for real.

Correct, I am not interpreting anything as you insinuate, I am applying the rules as written (please note the word "Written") You are violating the movement rules by saying you can iteratively move things which have an extraordinary claim of "At the beginning of the movement phase". Fact, the RAW clearly states that this d6 scatters movement is something different than normal movement in the movement phase, if your interpretation ONLY works if you have 1 spore mine on the table... then it is complete nonsense.


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Norade wrote:The text you quoted to me shows that so long as you need only move one spore mine it works just fine.

again, you admit that you are wrong.

Norade wrote: It simply says that as part of your infantry move you most move d6" in a random direction.

No, it does not. Again, you violate RAW


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Norade wrote:They have meanings

Thank you for admitting I'm right and you're wrong, I figured you'd come around sooner or later.


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forkbanger wrote:One Spore Mine in play could arguably allow itself further movement.
Two or more would allow one Spore Mine further movement

Again, this is an admission that this nonsensical addition to the rules is completely wrong. RAW... and nothing else says that you move the mine d6 scatters and does not permit any other movement. Any further movement violates the rules, since it violates the rules at least some of the time, you cannot do it ever.

visavismeyou wrote:

Norade wrote:He's perfectly right, the rules define what to do when you explode you're trying to add new context where there is one and pretending there is only one definition to use. Besides many things explode but aren't totally destroyed, such as a bullet exploding from a gun, not to mention that in some explosions the device is damaged but intact and still has unspent explosive left that could explode again.

Wow, you completely blundered here. A bullet explodes... FROM THE GUN... ever hear of a prepositional phrase before? the bullet isn't doing the exploding... the propellant is, and it is completely annihilated... The spore mine explodes ("It explodes") according to the rules, thus, it is completely annihilated as all mines that have ever existed and can be used as an analogy to explain to you how simple this is have ever been made.

Now, you bring up a gun and "Other devices" while trying to explain something... I am talking about the rules as written... Who is attempting to add a new context?

It is still you, besides even once the powder explodes there may be unburnt residue that can explode again. Not to mention that there are other uses for the term explode. Based on a purely dictionary response I could say the spore mine 'explodes' in this case explode meaning "Phonetics to pronounce (a stop) with audible plosion Compare implode". In this case my spore enunciates and then places a blast marker on you.

Norade wrote:Except that by RAW you aren't allowed to interpret things as it is a permissive rules set that defines exactly what it means. In this case drift means move 1d6" and if you have any left over move as normal because you're infantry. Same for explode, it says place a blast marker and follow the rules for that. It says nothing about removing a model, or worse yet causing the model to explode on the table top for real.

Correct, I am not interpreting anything as you insinuate, I am applying the rules as written (please note the word "Written") You are violating the movement rules by saying you can iteratively move things which have an extraordinary claim of "At the beginning of the movement phase". Fact, the RAW clearly states that this d6 scatters movement is something different than normal movement in the movement phase, if your interpretation ONLY works if you have 1 spore mine on the table... then it is complete nonsense.

The spore mine explodes ("It explodes") according to the rules, thus, it is completely annihilated as all mines that have ever existed and can be used as an analogy to explain to you how simple this is have ever been made.

Now, you bring up a gun and "Other devices" while trying to explain something... I am talking about the rules as written... Who is attempting to add a new context?

I'm still not seeing a direct correllation between the word explodes and a rule to remove from the table. Particularly in a scifi toy soldier game. You're saying explodes = totally destroyed = removed from table.

So place a real mine on a table explode it and see if it is removed from the table intact and placed in a minature carry case. It is not you are essentially trying to argue that he has to destroy his model in this instance.

Correct, I am not interpreting anything as you insinuate, I am applying the rules as written (please note the word "Written") You are violating the movement rules by saying you can iteratively move things which have an extraordinary claim of "At the beginning of the movement phase". Fact, the RAW clearly states that this d6 scatters movement is something different than normal movement in the movement phase, if your interpretation ONLY works if you have 1 spore mine on the table... then it is complete nonsense.

This is not RaW it is RaI. Just because an interpretation is non-sensical does not preclude it from being accurate via RaW. It might well preclude it from being a rule. You've stated on another thread that the rulebook isn't a legal document and therefore is just a set of guidelines. Whilst this is correct (it is also worth pointing out legal documents from eth country of origin of the rule set also only apply the spirit and inetntion of the law not the direct wording) for a RaW discussion you have to asssume this is false.

visavismeyou wrote:<snip repeated drivel>

Repeating yourself in the face of the correct answer only makes you look like a fool.

Norade wrote:Not to mention that there are other uses for the term explode.

I expected this from someone who drops context so readily.


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Norade wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:<snip repeated drivel>

Repeating yourself in the face of the correct answer only makes you look like a fool.

Ignoring RAW and sound argument makes you look like what?

visavismeyou wrote:

Norade wrote:Not to mention that there are other uses for the term explode.

I expected this from someone who drops context so readily.

There is no context, in a game of plastic men my interpretation is just as valid as yours. Kindly stop trolling now please.

Living Bomb - RAW
Movement - Never run, or fallback. Beginning of Movement phase, spore mine moves D6" in a direction determined by the scatter dice.
Shooting - They have no ranged weaponry so they cannot shoot, and under the rule it states it cannot run.
Assault - No mention of assault in the Living Bomb rule so we default to the BRB which states that Infantry may make a 6" assault move in the Assault phase barring any of the actions that would disallow it on page 33 of the BRB.
Explosion - Place the central hole of the large blast marker over the Spore Mine and resolve any hits at strength 4 and AP of 4.

What we are missing which is not RAW are the following statements:
The D6" movement replaces the normal movement.
The spore mine cannot assault
The explosion includes a statement to remove the model once it explodes.

It doesn't matter that Drift might imply that the D6" movement replaces normal movement. It doesn't matter that Explodes might imply to remove the model. If it doesn't explicitly say it in the Written text then it is not RAW, it is RAI as you are attempting to interpret the meaning of what the writer intended.

hamsterwheel wrote:Living Bomb - RAW
Movement - Never run, or fallback. Beginning of Movement phase, spore mine moves D6" in a direction determined by the scatter dice.
Shooting - They have no ranged weaponry so they cannot shoot, and under the rule it states it cannot run.
Assault - No mention of assault in the Living Bomb rule so we default to the BRB which states that Infantry may make a 6" assault move in the Assault phase barring any of the actions that would disallow it on page 33 of the BRB.
Explosion - Place the central hole of the large blast marker over the Spore Mine and resolve any hits at strength 4 and AP of 4.

What we are missing which is not RAW are the following statements:
The D6" movement replaces the normal movement.
The spore mine cannot assault
The explosion includes a statement to remove the model once it explodes.

It doesn't matter that Drift might imply that the D6" movement replaces normal movement. It doesn't matter that Explodes might imply to remove the model. If it doesn't explicitly say it in the Written text then it is not RAW, it is RAI as you are attempting to interpret the meaning of what the writer intended.

Yup, 100% right.

Norade wrote:

hamsterwheel wrote:Living Bomb - RAW
Movement - Never run, or fallback. Beginning of Movement phase, spore mine moves D6" in a direction determined by the scatter dice.
Shooting - They have no ranged weaponry so they cannot shoot, and under the rule it states it cannot run.
Assault - No mention of assault in the Living Bomb rule so we default to the BRB which states that Infantry may make a 6" assault move in the Assault phase barring any of the actions that would disallow it on page 33 of the BRB.
Explosion - Place the central hole of the large blast marker over the Spore Mine and resolve any hits at strength 4 and AP of 4.

What we are missing which is not RAW are the following statements:
The D6" movement replaces the normal movement.
The spore mine cannot assault
The explosion includes a statement to remove the model once it explodes.

It doesn't matter that Drift might imply that the D6" movement replaces normal movement. It doesn't matter that Explodes might imply to remove the model. If it doesn't explicitly say it in the Written text then it is not RAW, it is RAI as you are attempting to interpret the meaning of what the writer intended.

Yup, 100% right.

Lies, it is only 99.9% right.

He forgot the period for the 2nd item of the 2nd list!

Gwar! wrote:

Norade wrote:

hamsterwheel wrote:Living Bomb - RAW
Movement - Never run, or fallback. Beginning of Movement phase, spore mine moves D6" in a direction determined by the scatter dice.
Shooting - They have no ranged weaponry so they cannot shoot, and under the rule it states it cannot run.
Assault - No mention of assault in the Living Bomb rule so we default to the BRB which states that Infantry may make a 6" assault move in the Assault phase barring any of the actions that would disallow it on page 33 of the BRB.
Explosion - Place the central hole of the large blast marker over the Spore Mine and resolve any hits at strength 4 and AP of 4.

What we are missing which is not RAW are the following statements:
The D6" movement replaces the normal movement.
The spore mine cannot assault
The explosion includes a statement to remove the model once it explodes.

It doesn't matter that Drift might imply that the D6" movement replaces normal movement. It doesn't matter that Explodes might imply to remove the model. If it doesn't explicitly say it in the Written text then it is not RAW, it is RAI as you are attempting to interpret the meaning of what the writer intended.

Yup, 100% right.

Lies, it is only 99.9% right.

He forgot the period for the 2nd item of the 2nd list!

Truly, thou art a master GWAR!

Anyways guys

How many people actually use biovores or the harpy's ability? I don't think I've ever seen one, maybe its silly to argue about because it never comes up

pth88 wrote:Anyways guys

How many people actually use biovores or the harpy's ability? I don't think I've ever seen one, maybe its silly to argue about because it never comes up

People use spores as a unit all on their own. One member did well in a tournament and they helped him to win a key game.

Besides, we can still argue RAW even if the unit was never used once in all of history.

visavismeyou wrote:

HiveFleetGoliath wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:It has no senses, no mind, no instincts...

Ahem... "The spore mine is no mere unthinking ordnance, but possessed by a rudimentary intelligence and detonates not on impact, but when it senses the proximity of a non-tyranid lifeform."

I can see a spore mine moving towards an enemy unit.

where prey-tell is that?


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HiveFleetGoliath wrote: I can see a spore mine moving towards an enemy unit.

Also, according to that blurb, it would only sense the 2inchs at the end of the movement phase, this does not substantiate up to 18 inches of "Drifting" movement. It is neat addition to the discussion though.

That was from the Biovore entry.

Me and a friend had a talk about this last night and I think we came up with a solution for games between us..

Movement Phase - Drift D6"
Shoot - nothing
Assault Phase - We agreed on the mine can assault but it must stop at 2" from the enemy and explode, so I didn't check how many hits yet but I think you'll only get 1 hit usually and you have to move the mine directly towards the closest enemy model, so chances are its probably always going to be 1 hit.

HiveFleetGoliath wrote:Also, according to that blurb, it would only sense the 2inchs at the end of the movement phase, this does not substantiate up to 18 inches of "Drifting" movement. It is neat addition to the discussion though. That was from the Biovore entry.

Me and a friend had a talk about this last night and I think we came up with a solution for games between us..

Movement Phase - Drift D6"
Shoot - nothing
Assault Phase - We agreed on the mine can assault but it must stop at 2" from the enemy and explode, so I didn't check how many hits yet but I think you'll only get 1 hit usually and you have to move the mine directly towards the closest enemy model, so chances are its probably always going to be 1 hit.

I'm not going to suggest playing any differently since you and your friend came up with this solution but you wouldn't be playing by RAW as you cannot make an assault move until you can move in B2B contact with an enemy model. There's nothing wrong with playing the assault move as it's pretty much the only thing in this thread that doesn't have some ambiguity behind it.

This long ago stopped going anywhere remotely useful, so I think it's time to give it a rest.