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The rules for spore mines are on page 48 of the Nid book.


Here are a list of question I have come across:

1. Can spore mines move normally in the movement phase, after they drift d6?
2. Since spore mines are infantry can they assault a unit?
3. Do you remove the spore mine model after you place the large blast template, or does it stick around (if so does it take the Str 4 Ap 4 hit too)?
4. Can spore mine bought as a FA deploy during DoW scenarios?

Clthomps wrote:The rules for spore mines are on page 48 of the Nid book.


Here are a list of question I have come across:

1. Can spore mines move normally in the movement phase, after they drift d6?
2. Since spore mines are infantry can they assault a unit?
3. Do you remove the spore mine model after you place the large blast template, or does it stick around (if so does it take the Str 4 Ap 4 hit too)?
4. Can spore mine bought as a FA deploy during DoW scenarios?

1) No, the normal movement is replaced by the D6 and scatter die movement.
2) Since the spore mines explode when they come within 2 inches or into contact with an enemy model and they do not have an entry for WS, BS or A in their profile, they cannot assault or shoot.
3) If it explodes you place the large blast template over the mine model and then remove the model, this is explicitly stated in the text, i.e. "Explodes".
4) They rules governing their deployment are explicitly stated in the text under the Spore Mine Cluster - Orbital Deployment section "Always deployed in the following manner".

1. can you quote were it says that the movement is replaced, from the wording in the book it could be just a bonus movement.

2. I do think the lack of WS is a good point.

3. When a vehicle explodes something is left behind, in essence "explode" could refer to one of many sacs on the spore pod.

4. Codex > BGB. , I would agree.

Clthomps wrote:The rules for spore mines are on page 48 of the Nid book.


Here are a list of question I have come across:

1. Can spore mines move normally in the movement phase, after they drift d6?
2. Since spore mines are infantry can they assault a unit?
3. Do you remove the spore mine model after you place the large blast template, or does it stick around (if so does it take the Str 4 Ap 4 hit too)?
4. Can spore mine bought as a FA deploy during DoW scenarios?

1) RaW, they can move however many inches they have "left". So if they Drift 2", they now can move the remaining 4" normally Most people don't like this and want you to use the 4th edition spore mine rules.

2) Yes, they can assault too, but they instantly assplode!!!!!!

3) RaW, no, you do not remove it.

4) Yes, they follow their own special Deployment rules.

1) Gwar, I dont see anything to support they can move whats left, they either move ONLY d6 Scatters or they move d6 Scatters, then 6" normal, then 6" assault.
Can I show you the word "Instead" in the rules? No, however, the extraordinary claim of "At the beginning of the Tyranid Movement phase, each spore mine moves D6 inches" seems to suggest that this is the "movement" for the spore mine. I see nothing to support Gwar's claim as this is an extraordinary claim and if you're right and they're allowed to move as I said before, D6 Scatters, then 6 Inch Normal move, then 6" Assault. If I'm right then the extraordinary claim of Drift completely replaces normal movement and assault move and the "D6 inch Scatters move" is the only move allowed each turn.

The last bit of evidence I can offer is the following two explanations of the mine's "Drift" clause. 1) "Spore Mines that drift off the table or into a friendly unit are immediately removed from play" and 2) "Spore mines have been known to drift untriggered for days, weeks or even years, just waiting for an unwary foe to come near." If this was a well written rule they would have defined what "Drift" means in a technical way, since they did not, I think we have to revert back to the common parlance of "Drift" which means aimless and not very exerted. My understanding of this rule in its entirety is that mines ONLY drift, they do not assault, they do not move with any intention other than in the rare occasion that the "Hit" is rolled on the scatter die; all other times, they drift aimlessly and not that far.

Also keep in mind that spores are so mindless that they do not even have instincts (the lack of instinctive behavior) thus they are completely mindless to the extent of not even having the instinct of moving towards the nearest enemy.

But again, you might as well play with them being able to do back flips and sing the star spangled banner for all this rule explains to us.

2) I was wrong about this, I could have sworn that I read a blurb that "No A or WS" means no assault, however, after looking again this is not true. You can assault with an A and WS of 0, which could change the total movement allowed. If I'm right in the above, however, the drift clause would overwrite normal assault rules and a spore mine would not be able to assault, only move d6 in a scattered direction and if it ends a movement phase within 2 inches of an enemy then it splodes.

3) "Explodes" tends to mean "Utterly destroyed" in common parlance, since it is not well explicated, meh, whatever, doesn't impact the game very much, if you want to play it this way, the model becomes completely inert. One last piece of evidence is that with a vehicle, you have an extraordinary claim that states it stays on the table as a piece of terrain for a result of 5, all other destroyed effects are used in the common parlance; again, lack of technical explanation leaves only the dictionary definition to handle how the word is being used, thus, "Utterly destroyed" means remove it.

All conjecture I'm afraid. The rules are, obviously, written very poorly.

The only thing stopping the mines moving after the drift is if you argue that you can't move a model partially then return to move it the rest of its allocated distance. If you don't accept this it can move 6" like all infantry but d6" of that is in a random direction.

Again, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that says you can't assault or that you automatically remove the model if it explodes.

However, no one is going to argue that the RAW are the best way to play in this situation so I'd go with your (4th ed) interpretation (Move D6", no assault, remove when explode, special deployment). Just remember if you meet a dickish opponent, there are no actual rules to back you up.

Soup and a roll wrote:All conjecture I'm afraid. The rules are, obviously, written very poorly.

The only thing stopping the mines moving after the drift is if you argue that you can't move a model partially then return to move it the rest of its allocated distance. If you don't accept this it can move 6" like all infantry but d6" of that is in a random direction.

Again, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that says you can't assault or that you automatically remove the model if it explodes.

However, no one is going to argue that the RAW are the best way to play in this situation so I'd go with your (4th ed) interpretation (Move D6", no assault, remove when explode, special deployment). Just remember if you meet a dickish opponent, there are no actual rules to back you up.

Well I'm just saying when the rules fail, we have to fall back to the dictionary.

I thought an explodes result means you remove the model and place a crater where it was? Or is that just for vehicles?

I thought the 2" rule for spore mines said that it had to be within 2" of a unit that fires (so you could walk within 2" and not fire and be fine), or b2b contact then it explodes. If memory serves. But I don't play nids nor have their codex, I just vaguely remember looking at it at some point with my friend.

So don't string me out for not knowing, I am actually asking a question here for knowledge not trying to portray knowing everything.

Kevin949 wrote:I thought an explodes result means you remove the model and place a crater where it was? Or is that just for vehicles?

I thought the 2" rule for spore mines said that it had to be within 2" of a unit that fires (so you could walk within 2" and not fire and be fine), or b2b contact then it explodes. If memory serves. But I don't play nids nor have their codex, I just vaguely remember looking at it at some point with my friend.

So don't string me out for not knowing, I am actually asking a question here for knowledge not trying to portray knowing everything.

lol, not a prob, no the rule explicitly states that being within 2 inches at the end of a movement phase means the mine explodes, you may be thinking of the older codex. The explosion for a 6 result on the vehicle damage table is where you put down a crater marker, for the spore mine it does not mention it one way or the other, just says it explodes and you use a large blast marker to determine which models are hit, it does not explicitly state whether you remove the model or not, my argument is that since there is no explicit definition one way or the other, we just refer back to the dictionary to what "explodes" means, as in utterly destroyed, as in, remove the model as it is now blown to pieces and the model no longer represents the physical shape of the unit. If you want to take a spare spore model, and smash it with a hammer, then sprinkle those pieces under the blast marker, then sure, otherwise just remove it.

Ya, it was probably the older codex I'm thinking of.

And ya, considering it is a mine, I don't know too many types of mines that explode and then are usable again. Heh. Every nid player I've gone up against though has removed the spore mines from play when they explode.

I'm curious, Gwar, what do you have to say (if anything) about my response to your post?

visavismeyou wrote:I'm curious, Gwar, what do you have to say (if anything) about my response to your post?

I assume it'll be something along the lines of 'Fluff and guesses at intention aren't rules'.
And he'd be right, his explanation of the RAW is spot on.

Well if these mindless spore mines get an assault move then the Space Marine scout mines should too. I mean nowhere in the rules does it say they don't.

Just an FYI on the movement issue:

According to the Spore Mine entry, it is classified as Infantry.

Page 11 of the BGR:

Infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase.
This, imho, would lead me to believe that if you rolled a 2 for 'drift', you would still have another 4" of movement to expend.
This would also lead me to believe that you could also 'run' the pod in the shooting phase.

I agree that once they 'Explode' that they should be removed from the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Citizensmith wrote:Well if these mindless spore mines get an assault move then the Space Marine scout mines should too. I mean nowhere in the rules does it say they don't.

uhh, no. Scout mines are a peice of equipment, equipment can't assault.

Gorkamorka wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:I'm curious, Gwar, what do you have to say (if anything) about my response to your post?

I assume it'll be something along the lines of 'Fluff and guesses at intention aren't rules'.
And he'd be right, his explanation of the RAW is spot on.

where exactly did I guess at intention? Please, quote me... This'll be interesting!

Also, I pointed out errors in his explanation of RAW... Did you just skip over those?


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Fedral wrote:Just an FYI on the movement issue:

According to the Spore Mine entry, it is classified as Infantry.

Page 11 of the BGR:

Infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase.
This, imho, would lead me to believe that if you rolled a 2 for 'drift', you would still have another 4" of movement to expend.
This would also lead me to believe that you could also 'run' the pod in the shooting phase.

I agree that once they 'Explode' that they should be removed from the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, besides the codex explicitly stating they cant run, the belief that they can "Move the rest" is completely erred because the d6 Scatters movement is not "movement" in the sense of the "Movement during the movement phase". The rulebook states "Infantry move up to six inches in the Movement phase" and this is their "move" for that phase, the codex clearly makes an extraordinary claim about the "Drift" movement, thus, if you think they can "Move the rest" you must actually admit they get to move the "Drift" movement, then the normal infantry movement (6" in the direction the player decides) then move another 6" for the assault... This just does not make any sense; mines that drift aimlessly and mindlessly and without much effort expended... get to move up to 18 inches?! Most of which are dictated by the player?! This does not make any sense and violates the codex.

keep in mind, if you think that the spore mines are able to move the normal infantry move, then you must agree they can move up to 18 inches... that means any unit within 18 inches is not safe (plus the large blast marker)... a 18 inch radius of attack with a large blast marker for a S4 AP 4 hit... all for 10 points per model?!? This is completely nonsensical...

Please go back and read what I said about deferring to the dictionary, the codex does not work when you misread it as you are doing.


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Citizensmith wrote:Well if these mindless spore mines get an assault move then the Space Marine scout mines should too. I mean nowhere in the rules does it say they don't.

not only are you wrong for what has already been stated, but also, at no time should anyone look at the rules and say: "Well it doesnt say I cant strip naked and dance on the table!, therefore the rulebook says I can do it!". Never ask yourself "What doesn't it say!?", always ask yourself, "What does it say". Huge difference.

Visavismeyou, you are correct that mines being able to move at the players will and then assault is nonsensical. Unfortunately, the rules make no sense (even despite describing space wars between elves and fungus). Gwar!'s presented interpretation of the rules is absolutely correct by the rules. By using trying to interpret the rules using dictionary definitions of words you will only ever be able to put forward one interpretation, easily countered by another player with a different understanding of individual words. Falling back on the dictionary is far inferior to falling back on common sense.

Applying common sense to bad rules is a good way of making them playable. Arguing that RAW are wrong because it doesn't make sense is also fine.

As I said in my previous post, I agree 100% with how you are playing it but the RAW does not back this interpretation up (because the RAW are bad).

Wow, the level of sarcasm need here seems pretty high. Yes I'm fully aware scout mines are a piece of equipment, I was making a joke. Did you see the little smiley thing at the end of the line. ?

Spore mines are effectively non-sentient floating balloons with a proximity mine attached to them. I feel that the suggestion they get a purposeful move and assault beyond their drift is as ridiculous as scout mines getting a move.

The argument was that 'well the rules don't say they can't also move and then assault so that means they must be able to" and that seems pretty damn weak.

Citizensmith wrote:The argument was that 'well the rules don't say they can't also move and then assault so that means they must be able to" and that seems pretty damn weak.

Well, the rules say they can move, so why is it a weak argument?

Gwar! wrote:Well, the rules say they can move, so why is it a weak argument?

Because not only do they say they can move, they also state the exact method of that movement.

Citizensmith wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Well, the rules say they can move, so why is it a weak argument?

Because not only do they say they can move, they also state the exact method of that movement.

No, it says the drift randomly. The rules for infantry also say they can move normally. The Spore mine rules do not say to not follow the Infantry rules, so you HAVE to follow the Infantry rules. To not do so is actually breaking the rules.

I disagree, I read it as replacing the normal infantry movement not in addition to it. Particularly as that fits better with what I see as the intention of the rule.

Either way, its going to come down to tournament organizers until the FAQ it.

Soup and a roll wrote:Visavismeyou, you are correct that mines being able to move at the players will and then assault is nonsensical. Unfortunately, the rules make no sense (even despite describing space wars between elves and fungus). Gwar!'s presented interpretation of the rules is absolutely correct by the rules. By using trying to interpret the rules using dictionary definitions of words you will only ever be able to put forward one interpretation, easily countered by another player with a different understanding of individual words. Falling back on the dictionary is far inferior to falling back on common sense.

Applying common sense to bad rules is a good way of making them playable. Arguing that RAW are wrong because it doesn't make sense is also fine.

As I said in my previous post, I agree 100% with how you are playing it but the RAW does not back this interpretation up (because the RAW are bad).

Yes the raw is terrible, however, falling back on the dictionary is not "My method of doing it" it is what is required; the rulebook has a chance to explicitly explain something like it does with the large and small blast markers. However, when the rulebook does not define that it is changing the word in any technical sense, then the rulebook refers to the dictionary... This is not some other method of interpreting the rules or interpreting the intention of the rulebook... this is just the facts of the language that the writers choose to use...

Since they did not explicitly state the word "Drift" means something more, we are only left with the dictionary definition... And I am not relying on "Fluff"... this is just pure evasion... "Spore mines that drift off the table or into a friendly unit..." is not fluff...

Also, just to explicitly clear this up... I have yet to use any sort of inference into the intention of the writers, well thats not true! I have inferred that the writers intend to use the English language! If this is an error, then excuse me, but I will continue to make this error! According to the English language, the words "Drift" and "Explode" mean something, if they are not explicitly stated to mean something other than what the dictionary says, then they are used in the English language and mean what the dictionary says, there is nothing wrong with this and it is in fact the "Rules as they are written in the English language" also known as "RAW".


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Gwar! wrote:

Citizensmith wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Well, the rules say they can move, so why is it a weak argument?

Because not only do they say they can move, they also state the exact method of that movement.

No, it says the drift randomly. The rules for infantry also say they can move normally. The Spore mine rules do not say to not follow the Infantry rules, so you HAVE to follow the Infantry rules. To not do so is actually breaking the rules.

Yep, again, I agree there is no explicit restriction against normal movement, however, being able to move 18 inches (Most of which is controlled by the player) violates the word "Drift" and since there is an extraordinary claim about their movement as being D6 Scatters that requires that another extraordinary claim exists to allow them to move the "Rest", let alone the normal infantry movement and the assault movement. I really think the fact of the extraordinary claim is pertinent to understanding how the RAW Reads. Finally, the shear insanity of letting them move 18 inches violates credulity.

Again, I think one would be hard pressed to demonstrate anything other than one of the following is true by RAW:

Either
1) The spore mine may only move D6 Scatters and nothing more
or
2) The spore mine may move up to 18 inches, 12-17 of which is intentional movement (D6 Scatters + 6" Infantry Move + 6" Assault)

Thus, Gwar, your assertion that you can "Move the rest" of the d6 movement violates the RAW. Either 1) or 2) nothing else and not both (obviously). Finally, I think that 2) would not be accepted by very many people thus that alone would give us impetus to adopt the first; and the fact that the spore mine can move the vast majority of its movement in an intentional manner violates the RAW's usage of the word "Drift" and the fact that they are without a mind (No voluntary pinning, not subject to fear to be pinned involuntarily, may drift off of the table, may drift into a friendly unit, not subject to falling back) and without any instincts ("Not subject to Instinctive Behaviour"). This is not an inference into the intention of the rules, this is simply the words that are written on the page.


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Gwar! wrote:The Spore mine rules do not say to not follow the Infantry rules, so you HAVE to follow the Infantry rules. To not do so is actually breaking the rules.

Exactly, therefore you think they can move 18 inches according to RAW.

in regards to Visavismeyou post

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

Presto wrote:in regards to Visavismeyou post

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

I know, people are misusing and violating both "Explodes" and "Drift"...

I'll chip in and state that explodes does not equate to removed from play in a Sci-fi game such as 40k. If you're following the RaW Gwar!'s initial interpretation was correct. It was also dumb beyond beleif and not only would no one I've ever met agree to play it that way no TO would rule that my Spore mines keeps exploding until everything arround it is dead or it dies and then explodes a further time (meaning at least 2 explosions each time).

I'd say they can assault they are clearly ruled out from moving and from running in the rules (running explicitely so moving implicitly so via the drift rule).

As for DoW via RaW the game breaks you are not allowed to ever have more than 2 troops and 1 HQ deployed when the game starts yet you have to deploy the spore mines by their special rules before either side deploys. The most reaosnable solution is to allow the Spre mines to deploy as their rule is more specific.

Concerning the movement, I'm inclined that the special rule Living Bomb supersedes the standard Infantry movement by describing it in a sense that it would follow the "Random and Compulsory Movement" as described on page 11 of the BRB.

Concerning an assault move, the Mines can do one, simply because they do not have a special rule that says they can't and the description for Infantry says they can. If the BRB says they can and there is nothing saying they can't then they can, it's that simple. This is further reinforced by the Living Bomb rule which states that they explode if they come within B2B contact with an enemy model which can't occur during the movement phase.

Concerning explosion and the model. It's a special rule just for the Spore Mines so we can't use any other references to determine if the model is removed or not. However it can become complicated if the model is not removed and I'm sure by RAI most players will play it correctly.

The big complications come in the sense that should it assault and touch a model, it'll immediately explode, and according to the Living Bomb rule, you should place the large marker on top of the spore mine and resolve wounds accordingly....Now here is where it gets complicated. If the model is not removed due to exploding but is removed due to being wounded by the explosion, then it once again explodes as it loses it's wound, one of the requirements to getting an explosion. So in this case, you've just dropped two large blast markers and the model will be removed per the rules in the BRB about a model losing it's last wound. The same problem occurs if the spore mine ends it's movement phase within 2" of an enemy unit.

visavismeyou wrote:2) The spore mine may move up to 18 inches, 12-17 of which is intentional movement (D6 Scatters + 6" Infantry Move + 6" Assault)

You don't get the D6" + 6" in the movement phase, as infantry are restricted to moving a maximum of 6" in that phase.

So either the Spore's drift rules replace normal Infantry movement, in which case the spore moves D6" int he Movement phase
or the Spore drifts D6", and can then move normally for a distance equal to 6" minus the D6 they already moved.


The latter option is (I think) quite clearly not the intention... but it is the RAW. Nowhere do the Spore rules suggest that the drift replaces the normal movement.

The closest you get to a RAW argument against it is the rule forbidding you from going back to a previous unit once you have moved on to another... which you can get around somewhat by completing the Spore's drift, and then moving the spores before any other units.


I would be very surprised, however, if the vast majority of players don't play it as just the D6" movement. This is one case where the RAW is quite obviously not the way the game is supposed to be played.

Well, is there any reason spore mines are considered infantry? They don't have their own unit type classifying them as such, so why would they get the standard infantry movement?

I'm not familiar with other codices at all, so I'm not sure if there are other similar moving mine type models, that would suggest other classification.

I believe its very clear that the mines only move d6", and you can only choose the direction if you roll a hit. No standard infantry movement.

pth88 wrote:Well, is there any reason spore mines are considered infantry?

Yup. It says: "Unit Type: Infantry" in their army list entry.