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In typical GW fashion, there is no right answer to this until they choose to clear it up. *sigh*

I admire the tenacity displayed when a group of formerly staunch RAW players -- some of whom refuse to give GW any leeway in say, a typo in the Blood Angels Vindicator listing -- are now looking to translate foreign PDFs, advocate the primacy of an older printed codex over a new PDF, and bend semantics to keep their ally rules.

Yes, the PDFs are weak and the WH and DH armies are either destroyed or rendered one-trick ponies. But that wasn't really the trouble, was it?

I'm a Guard player (among others) and I sense the DH toys have been taken away. Perhaps it's all a bad dream that GW will fix tomorrow morning. Or not.

It isn't that the RAW folks (myself included) are trying to find loopholes or anything, but the fact that Games Workshop has yet again let another massive inconsistency through to the players and now has no clear solution.

Between the non-English copies being different (and in higher number than the single English copy), the current printed copies (which no one said were replaced, right?), and all that other nonsense, what are we to think?

As it stands, a lot of folks are supporting this possible error because they begrudge Imperial Guard their Allies, which is sad and petty. I just hope that Games Workshop actually answers this in a timely fashion.

Neconilis wrote:
The Necron codex comes to mind as I know that one got a stealth update too.

WHAT!? When and what was the change!?

The one that changed the living metal text.

IF we must use the most recent version of the DH codex (IE the PDF). then I’m just going to use the French version. nothing said the English codex out weighed any other translation. don’t get me wrong if "we are taking away allies from the WH/DH codex" comes out of GW, then ill lay down my gun and conform like the rest. But until then ill push my newly printed copy of ORDO MALLEUS.

Ah. And here I was expecting something important =/

komosunder wrote:IF we must use the most recent version of the DH codex (IE the PDF). then I’m just going to use the French version. nothing said the English codex out weighed any other translation.

I'm curious as to what you think would be served by this approach?

It's one thing to argue that the rules technically don't require the english rules... but to actually try to do it on the table raises all sorts of complications.


Generally speaking, the only reason you would 'have' to use any particular version of the rules is if you were playing in a tournament or other organised event... in which case, the judge you try this on is going to look at you like you just crawled out from under a rock and rule against you to keep things moving.

In a friendly game, you're going to have to explain why you're pulling out a foreign language version of the codex... and the point where you explain that it's because it has different rules to the english version is going to be the point where your opponent's models start leaving the table.

The more sportsmanlike option, if you really want to use the allies rules, would be to just continue to use the printed codex, and discuss it with your opponent if they raise an issue with it. Frankly, if you want to use the old codex, and your opponent doesn't want to let you, you're going to enjoy the game a lot more if you just find a different opponent rather than trying to pull this sort of stunt.


In short, other than in an organised event with a specific list of allowed rules, there is no requirement to use any particular rules publication. So use whatever version of the DH codex you want to use... just don't try to justify it with some perceived loophole.

ghost11 wrote:I admire the tenacity displayed when a group of formerly staunch RAW players -- some of whom refuse to give GW any leeway in say, a typo in the Blood Angels Vindicator listing -- are now looking to translate foreign PDFs, advocate the primacy of an older printed codex over a new PDF, and bend semantics to keep their ally rules.

Yes, the PDFs are weak and the WH and DH armies are either destroyed or rendered one-trick ponies. But that wasn't really the trouble, was it?

QFT

ghost11 wrote:I admire the tenacity displayed when a group of formerly staunch RAW players -- some of whom refuse to give GW any leeway in say, a typo in the Blood Angels Vindicator listing -- are now looking to translate foreign PDFs, advocate the primacy of an older printed codex over a new PDF, and bend semantics to keep their ally rules.

Yes, the PDFs are weak and the WH and DH armies are either destroyed or rendered one-trick ponies. But that wasn't really the trouble, was it?

See, but I really don't see it that way. I'm not sure what the purpose of translating foreign PDFs is. It's simply that, yes, they did remove allies. But they also saw that the Force Org Chart was killing Demonhunter armies, and as a result, they balanced the equation by not restricting them in what they could field. RaW is RaW after all.

Gwar! wrote:

Only GW could feth up the release of a book that has been out 10 years.

This i agree with.

I'm curious as to what you think would be served by this approach?

It's one thing to argue that the rules technically don't require the english rules... but to actually try to do it on the table raises all sorts of complications.


Generally speaking, the only reason you would 'have' to use any particular version of the rules is if you were playing in a tournament or other organised event... in which case, the judge you try this on is going to look at you like you just crawled out from under a rock and rule against you to keep things moving.

In a friendly game, you're going to have to explain why you're pulling out a foreign language version of the codex... and the point where you explain that it's because it has different rules to the english version is going to be the point where your opponent's models start leaving the table.

The more sportsmanlike option, if you really want to use the allies rules, would be to just continue to use the printed codex, and discuss it with your opponent if they raise an issue with it. Frankly, if you want to use the old codex, and your opponent doesn't want to let you, you're going to enjoy the game a lot more if you just find a different opponent rather than trying to pull this sort of stunt.

Mais qu'est qui se passe si vous etes Canadien?

Je m'excuse, mon francais est un peu rouile. (Je ne sais pas comment ajouter accents ici, lol)

Well, if you're Canadian, then I suppose you simply use whatever codex represents the nationality predominant in the region in which you play. Or if you want to go all RAW about it (this is YDMC), then you say that there is no provision in the rules for determining which language rulebook you utilize without showing preference toward a particular languages rulebook, so you either have to wait until GW rewrites the Rules in Esperanto or Ancient Latin, or you simply houserule it. Like the ally issue. Like every other giant rule debate that comes up.

As expected, the issue is not resolved in today's GW blog post.

Nothing says explicitly, "DH can no longer take allies, and IG armies can't take WH or DH allies."

Instead, it's answered in true GW fashion:

With the Storm Troopers being re-released the other day and the PDFs yesterday, my love for these heroic individuals has been rekindle (sic)

or, to translate from British English: buy some metal stormtroopers, bitches.

Good luck with that French codex. I'm going to print up my own in Arabic where PAGK cost 12 points each and are T6. You know, for friendly games.

Mike Leon wrote:
It is important to note that a witch hunter army can still take allies from other armies according to the PDF, but other armies (Space Marines, Imperial Guard) can NOT take witch hunter allies. Daemonhunters don't get to ally at all any way whatsoever.

The allies a WH army can take are very limited.
It lists which exact units can be taken.

VikingScott wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:
It is important to note that a witch hunter army can still take allies from other armies according to the PDF, but other armies (Space Marines, Imperial Guard) can NOT take witch hunter allies. Daemonhunters don't get to ally at all any way whatsoever.

The allies a WH army can take are very limited.
It lists which exact units can be taken.

Yes it does.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180152_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

In a FAQ.

Notice they didn't update it. Notice that GW did not remove the allies rules in the other armies' FAQs, nor any references to allied units.

Pointing out that they left in the references to allies doesn't really prove much. They've never updated a FAQ which referenced a rule in a different codex.

considering the new web pdf codex are the official codexs for the DH and WH armies and the old ones have been out of print for a while...

and the game is PERMISSIVE ruleset, GKs can not be taken as allies by IG.

Chaos lords suck now too, not like you can use the new chaos codex for your plague marines but then use the old codex for your chaos lord... sorry but thats how the game works.

If the rules for something from a old codex that is no longer in print does not exist in the new version of the codex then the rule no longer exists. Of course GW might change their pdfs codex and this will change but until then no allies for IG.

blaktoof wrote:considering the new web pdf codex are the official codexs

Prove it.

ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

the old codexes have been out of print for what 6 months?

So let me ask you this, prove the web codexes are not official?

the link on the website that says "Daemonhunters: Codex download" and the lack of any other codex for the army being sold, or given away, by GW makes it seem awful like the actual real official codex for the army now. Because it now is.

blaktoof wrote:ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

the old codexes have been out of print for what 6 months?

So let me ask you this, prove the web codexes are not official?

Sure. They are incomplete. If they are official then they are unplayable. ESPECIALLY the DH codex, you need to have the original book in order to play, as the PDF does not have all the various special rules. If it were official, then it should have had all of the special rules you need for the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:Because the do not have pages the last version of the codex has does not make them incomplete, thats a misconception on your part.

"Because it is incomplete does not make it incomplete" is a silly argument.

Because they do not have pages the last version of the codex has does not make them incomplete, that's a misconception on your part.

blaktoof wrote:ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

Ok, I just did. He told me that the PDFs were missing some stuff and that the printed codex should be used if you have it (which I do).

The WH codex pdf is fine. It just has no means to take WH in other armies. Inducted units follow the bump out box on page 16.

The Dh is OK, you can reference the main rulebook for the default FOC (see pages 86-87). You just have to dice off if a given unit is a Grey Knight or a Daemon. It also has no allies or inducted units.

Homer


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

blaktoof wrote:ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

Ok, I just did. He told me that the PDFs were missing some stuff and that the printed codex should be used if you have it (which I do).

Uh oh... I just called my local store and they said "Fantasy is coming. Did you pre-order and ..."

Homer

Gwar! wrote:

blaktoof wrote:ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

Ok, I just did. He told me that the PDFs were missing some stuff and that the printed codex should be used if you have it (which I do).

awesome two different statements from GW people..... never heard that before lol

Homer S wrote:The WH codex pdf is fine. It just has no means to take WH in other armies. Inducted units follow the bump out box on page 16.

The Dh is OK, you can reference the main rulebook for the EXAMPLE FOC (see pages 86-87). You just have to dice off if a given unit is a Grey Knight or a Daemon. It also has no allies or inducted units.

Homer

Fixed that for you. I understand your stance. I get that some IG player must have yelled at your puppy or kicked sand in your face at the beach or something, but seriously. If we're taking a hard line on this, and we're treating this as a "new codex release," superceeding all others then RaW is RaW and it's not a playable codex. You can't have it both ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to directly respond to your post, no, you can't. There's no RaW provision for using that chart. It's just an example.

Gwar! wrote:

blaktoof wrote:ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

Ok, I just did. He told me that the PDFs were missing some stuff and that the printed codex should be used if you have it (which I do).

And, wonder of wonders, I got the same response. The web pdfs are just starters for people that don't have the 'real' codex, if you have the printed one they sold, continue to use it.

And then there's this:
http://ottawagamer.blogspot.com/2010/06/deamonhunters-codex-answer-from.html
Reply From Games Workshop

The new PDF is up for the people who do not have access to buy the codex anymore. The missing Alies section in the U.S format is indeed a mistake. And whichever one the tournament/event organizer says to use is the one that we have to abide by. I know that for our tournaments we will be using the Physical codex and NOT the PDF. I hope this helps!

Thanks!

John Hollingsworth
Customer Service Specialist

I don't play either "race", I'm just commenting. I suppose if the example one used by most races in all of the scenarios is not a "rule" then so be it.

Homer


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

blaktoof wrote:ok. Call the gw store and ask to purchase a copy of the DH or WH codex, they now refer you to the web pdfs as the official codex......

Ok, I just did. He told me that the PDFs were missing some stuff and that the printed codex should be used if you have it (which I do).

And, wonder of wonders, I got the same response. The web pdfs are just starters for people that don't have the 'real' codex, if you have the printed one they sold, continue to use it.

And then there's this:
http://ottawagamer.blogspot.com/2010/06/deamonhunters-codex-answer-from.html
Reply From Games Workshop

The new PDF is up for the people who do not have access to buy the codex anymore. The missing Alies section in the U.S format is indeed a mistake. And whichever one the tournament/event organizer says to use is the one that we have to abide by. I know that for our tournaments we will be using the Physical codex and NOT the PDF. I hope this helps!

Thanks!

John Hollingsworth
Customer Service Specialist

That is really funny!

I just did a look and the French, German and Italian PDFs are now missing the same pages as the English ones! (WH - no allies, inducted OK/Dh - no allies, no inducted, no FOC)

Homer

Which means they are also unplayable! HILARITY ENSUES!

Hate to break it to you, but I've never used PDF/magazine/etc. updates for my opponent or myself.

Why? Try and play a Dark Eldar army, and you will have about 5 copies of Chapter Approved, several issues of White Dwarf, a handful of FAQs, and more.

Quite frankly, I don't want to have to sort through my opponents pile of paperwork to see if they have the most recent copy of the relevant FAQ, Chapter Approved, issue of White Dwarf, etc.

Play the Codex, if there is an Errata, then bring it with you. If there is a recent FAQ, bring it and discuss it with me. I am going to play the DH codex, the same as I always have.