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But it is four separate rockets, and its not the rockets that can only fire four times...it is the manticore rocket launcher that can only fire four times.


If storm eagle rockets are ever added to another vehicle they will not be limited to firing four shots. Not unless there is an additional rule written.

Its the way that the rules have been written that are causing all these problems. There are rules for the rockets, then there are rules for the limited ammunition under the vehicle itself. The rockets are weapons that can be fired once each, and there are four of them. At least thats how the rules are currently written.


Sliggoth

Trying not to beat on a dead Troll...

Why say "Storm Eagle Rockets" and then "Limited Ammunition" when you could have said 4 Storm Eagle Rockets? This is why they say it is temperamental; if you have a weapon destroyed they all do not work. They said "2 Hellstrike Missiles" for the Valkyrie so it all seems pretty consistent.

Really, why post something if you do not want to hear a true answer? It sucks but it adds that extra bit of balance to a really nasty weapon. On the upside: if the weapon is destroyed and then repaired you do not lose any missiles! Sound OK?

Gwar - good job keeping your cool.

Sliggoth wrote:But it is four separate rockets, and its not the rockets that can only fire four times...it is the manticore rocket launcher that can only fire four times.

cite that. because Its very clearly written that, "a manticore rocket launcher fires deadly storm eagle rockets." under the storm eagle rockets section. Under the limited ammunition rule it says, " a manticore rocket launcher typically carries a rack of 4 rockets. make a note of each time a rocket is fired. once the manticore rocket launcher has fired 4 times it has run out of ammunition. it cannot be rearmed and hence cannot be fired again during the same game" The limited ammuniton rule gives it "4" shots NOT 4 weapons because when you look in the wargear its "storm eagle rockets" 1 entry, no number, thus 1 weapon

just so you know, Independent National Warhammer 40,000 Tournament FAQ v.3.3 (03/09/2010), under IG.54.B.01 says that a weapon destroyed result will destory the rack of manticore missiles. of course its not GW, but you can use it as a guide and as another thing saying your wrong...

Sliggoth wrote:Its the way that the rules have been written that are causing all these problems. There are rules for the rockets, then there are rules for the limited ammunition under the vehicle itself. The rockets are weapons that can be fired once each, and there are four of them. At least thats how the rules are currently written.

cite that too. it never lists the rockets themselves (ie: rocket 1, rocket 2, etc) as weapons anywhere in the codex, it lists the "rockets" (ie: all the rockets) under the entry of storm eagle rockets...

if you can't cite anything, your just being stubborn headed and insisting your right. i've given sources and cites now it your turn.

@ Joetaco Well, if you want rules cited, then please note that there is NO listing at all for a rack as any sort of wargear, so destroying a rack with a weapon destroyed result is entirely a house rule.

As to the number 4 being the number of rockets, yes we have the limited ammuniton rule that tells us there are four (4) rockets. And..we have the wargear section telling us that the rockets are weapons. So by the simple use of the two rules ( rockets are weapons, there are 4 rockets) we find that there are indeed 4 rockets...and the rockets are weapons. Your own post asking for a rules citation tells us that there are 4 rockets...which the listing under wargear tells us are weapons.

The wargear rule tells us that storm eagle rockets are weapons. Note that the word rockets is plural, which trells us that there is indeed more than one rocket. If the wargear listed it as a rocket system, as a rocket launcher, or in fact any device at all in the singular then we would have a clear case to use a weapon destroyed result to take out all the rockets.


But once again, the listing is plural. That is what makes the entire question so uncertain. By what is written, there are weapons called storm eagle rockets on the manticore. The only thing we know from the wargear lisitng is that there are more than one of them, and this wording is different from the other vehicle missile/ rocket weapons that are single shot each...so we have uncertainty.

The wording however is also quite different from the whirlwind, which is listed as having a launcher.




So the real answer is: we cant tell.

If the author had meant for it to be destroyed with one hit then he had a clear precedent with the whirleind, yet he didnt do that. Why he didnt list it as 4 storm eagle rockets is uncertain...perhaps there was a question raised about what 4 would mean under that lsiting. Granted the manticore can only fire 4 times, but because of how the rules are worded the rockets arent technically one shot only. The manticore itself can only fire 4 times, but there is nothing saying that the rockets can only be fired one time each. (yes, in the real world we would expect a rocket to be gone once its fired, thats not how he wrote this rule however) So if there was a listing of 4 storm eagle rockets we would be seeing an arguement that so long as one rocket was not yet destroyed the manticore would still be able to fire 4 times during the game. Even with three weapon destroyed results on the first turn, the rules are badly enough written that it appears the manticore might be able to keep firing.


As the rules stand now, we are left in a bit of a mess with both the RAW and the RAI unclear.



Sliggoth

Dumber than a rock comments removed. Please don't post gak like this on Dakka. Ta.

Captain Solon wrote:are we fighting over minor units again? :<

Very important 'minor units', it's the difference between 4 D3 S10 Large Blasts and nothingness.

If you want to avoid the confusion play the forgeworld rules for the manticore. It plainly says 4 rockets and you have the option of different rockets and missiles.

Sliggoth wrote:@ Joetaco Well, if you want rules cited, then please note that there is NO listing at all for a rack as any sort of wargear, so destroying a rack with a weapon destroyed result is entirely a house rule.

As to the number 4 being the number of rockets, yes we have the limited ammuniton rule that tells us there are four (4) rockets. And..we have the wargear section telling us that the rockets are weapons. So by the simple use of the two rules ( rockets are weapons, there are 4 rockets) we find that there are indeed 4 rockets...and the rockets are weapons. Your own post asking for a rules citation tells us that there are 4 rockets...which the listing under wargear tells us are weapons.

The wargear rule tells us that storm eagle rockets are weapons. Note that the word rockets is plural, which trells us that there is indeed more than one rocket. If the wargear listed it as a rocket system, as a rocket launcher, or in fact any device at all in the singular then we would have a clear case to use a weapon destroyed result to take out all the rockets.


But once again, the listing is plural. That is what makes the entire question so uncertain. By what is written, there are weapons called storm eagle rockets on the manticore. The only thing we know from the wargear lisitng is that there are more than one of them, and this wording is different from the other vehicle missile/ rocket weapons that are single shot each...so we have uncertainty.

The wording however is also quite different from the whirlwind, which is listed as having a launcher.




So the real answer is: we cant tell.

If the author had meant for it to be destroyed with one hit then he had a clear precedent with the whirleind, yet he didnt do that. Why he didnt list it as 4 storm eagle rockets is uncertain...perhaps there was a question raised about what 4 would mean under that lsiting. Granted the manticore can only fire 4 times, but because of how the rules are worded the rockets arent technically one shot only. The manticore itself can only fire 4 times, but there is nothing saying that the rockets can only be fired one time each. (yes, in the real world we would expect a rocket to be gone once its fired, thats not how he wrote this rule however) So if there was a listing of 4 storm eagle rockets we would be seeing an arguement that so long as one rocket was not yet destroyed the manticore would still be able to fire 4 times during the game. Even with three weapon destroyed results on the first turn, the rules are badly enough written that it appears the manticore might be able to keep firing.


As the rules stand now, we are left in a bit of a mess with both the RAW and the RAI unclear.



Sliggoth

well using your rules there would be no use for codexs to specify - two hvy bolter sponsons.. two multiple missle pods.. as they are plural but the 'dex still specifies the amount of weapons listed

you cannot fire more the one rocket a turn as you can only fire a weapon once per turn - the entire rack is the weapon with limited ammunition

weapon destroyed results dont meant the weapons blows up.. just the firing/launching mechanism may have been damaged preventing the weapon from firing

Compare Hydra's weapon entry to Manticore's anymore questions?

Gwar! and others has it right.

even if you receive a weapon destroyed result on turn one just knock out the hull weapon

Catachan_Devil wrote:even if you receive a weapon destroyed result on turn one just knock out the hull weapon

I doubt the attacker will do that though :'P

LunaHound wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:even if you receive a weapon destroyed result on turn one just knock out the hull weapon

I doubt the attacker will do that though :'P

yep - whoops

no excuse for that.. complete brain snap

Use the force, "You want to destroy the heavy bolter"

Crablezworth wrote:If you want to avoid the confusion play the forgeworld rules for the manticore. It plainly says 4 rockets and you have the option of different rockets and missiles.

What I was going to say. if they wanted it as 4 rockets, under wargear, they would have listed "4 Storm Eagle Rockets", not "Storm Eagle Rockets".

doubled wrote:Use the force, "You want to destroy the heavy bolter"

I would put heavy flamer on my manticore and basilisks.

There is something funny and comedic about an angry half destroyed tank trying to roast you xD

One reason they may not have listed it as 4 rockets is that because of the way the rules on the storm eagle rockets are written the rockets are not one shot each. The manticore can fire 4 times, and the rockets themselves are not listed as expended or one shot only. So it might have been a last minute edit to remove the 4 under the wargear section rather than rewrite the entire storm eagle section.

They do list two sponsons under the wargear section for many of the vehicles that have sponsons, or else they mention a pair of sponsons.

For the rockets they do list rocket(s) in the plural form. This does mean that there are more than one rocket, so if we use one weapon destroyed result to destroy all the rockets...we are destroying multiple weapons with a result that only can destroy one weapon. So we are breaking a very basic rule if we do this...



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:One reason they may not have listed it as 4 rockets is that because of the way the rules on the storm eagle rockets are written the rockets are not one shot each. The manticore can fire 4 times, and the rockets themselves are not listed as expended or one shot only. So it might have been a last minute edit to remove the 4 under the wargear section rather than rewrite the entire storm eagle section.

They do list two sponsons under the wargear section for many of the vehicles that have sponsons, or else they mention a pair of sponsons.

For the rockets they do list rocket(s) in the plural form. This does mean that there are more than one rocket, so if we use one weapon destroyed result to destroy all the rockets...we are destroying multiple weapons with a result that only can destroy one weapon. So we are breaking a very basic rule if we do this...



Sliggoth

I agree , the rocket(s) is mentioned only because its limited ammunition. Not because its 4 weapons that fire once.

LunaHound wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:One reason they may not have listed it as 4 rockets is that because of the way the rules on the storm eagle rockets are written the rockets are not one shot each. The manticore can fire 4 times, and the rockets themselves are not listed as expended or one shot only. So it might have been a last minute edit to remove the 4 under the wargear section rather than rewrite the entire storm eagle section.

They do list two sponsons under the wargear section for many of the vehicles that have sponsons, or else they mention a pair of sponsons.

For the rockets they do list rocket(s) in the plural form. This does mean that there are more than one rocket, so if we use one weapon destroyed result to destroy all the rockets...we are destroying multiple weapons with a result that only can destroy one weapon. So we are breaking a very basic rule if we do this...



Sliggoth

I agree , the rocket(s) is mentioned only because its limited ammunition. Not because its 4 weapons that fire once.

+1 it is one weapon the fires 4 times - not 4x one shot weapons

check valkyrie hellstike entry for another example of how multiple weapons are listed..


i do have a question for weapon destroyed results against the manitcore.. if i have fired all the rockets and the suffer 2 weapon destroyed results would you:

a/. destroy the hull mounted weapon and the missle rack

or

b/. destroy the hull mounted weapon and immobilise the vehicle

i am leaning towards a/. (even though it is out of ammo it would still be a weapon on the vehicle) but wanted to see what everyone else thinks

Gwar! is right. It is one weapon that fires four times. One WD result knocks it out, and the Techpriest repairing it allows it to fire the amount of shots that it has left.

Catachan_Devil wrote:
i do have a question for weapon destroyed results against the manitcore.. if i have fired all the rockets and the suffer 2 weapon destroyed results would you:

a/. destroy the hull mounted weapon and the missle rack

or

b/. destroy the hull mounted weapon and immobilise the vehicle

i am leaning towards a/. (even though it is out of ammo it would still be a weapon on the vehicle) but wanted to see what everyone else thinks

It's still a weapon, even with no shots left. So you'd destroy the storm eagle missiles and the hull weapon.