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It's listed as a single weapon and is also referred to as a 'rack' of rockets, implying that they believe the rack to be the weapon and the rockets to be merely pieces of it.

I agree with taht sentiment.

G

are we fighting over minor units again? :<

One thing being mentioned here that should be cleared up...the rack of rockets cant be destroyed. The rack isnt listed as a weapon anywhere, so there is no way to destroy the rack with a weapon destroyed result. Now if the rack were a vehicle upgrade that functioned as a weapon it might possibly be able to be destroyed, but its not a vehicle upgrade.

So the rack cannot be destroyed, the question becomes are the rockets one weapon or four.

The rockets are listed on one line in the codex, but that doesnt help us since other things that we recognize as multiple weapons are also listed that same way on one line.

Part of the problem is also that the author seems to use the plural when talking about one rocket, since he seems to mix up the multiple warheads with the rocket itself.


It can be read either way, there are two quite reasonable ways to consider the rule here so it seems to be unclear as it is written.


Sliggoth

Lt. Coldfire wrote:
There's a certain level of common sense that goes along with this game, and when you lack it, you look like a total douche.

This should be the header for a number of sections of Dakka including this one and the tournament discussion section...

Thinking about it a bit more, there could be 3 ways to look at the manticore weapon destroyed result.

1) Destroy however many missiles the manticore has; altho this does run into the problem that if we treat the missiles as weapons to be destroyed then how do we decide to destroy multiple weapons (the missiles are indeed plural here) with one weapon destroyed result.

2) Destroy one missile per weapon destroyed result. This treats the manticore missiles as other rockets/ missiles, altho the wording on the manticore is different so this isnt clear at all.

3) The vehicle itself is called the manticore rocket launcher, and the rules talk about the vehicle itself firing the rockets...so the rockets are only ammunition and cant be chosen as a weapon destroyed result at all. This would treat the rockets radically different from other similar missiles in the game, altho the deathstrike cannot be destroyed with a weapon destroyed result either.


So its even more muddy than first thought.


Sliggoth

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It says side sponsons, how many sides does a Predator have?

Notice there is no limit on those side sponsons. Again, the LRBT specifically says a "pair." Apparently you can model your Predators with as many sponsons as you can fit on the sides. Even the Baneblade lists "two sponsons...." and then gives the option of adding "two extra sponsons (for a total of two sponsons per side!)" And it also lists exactly how many lascannons are contained within each sponson. So yeah, according to C:SM, you could have as many sponsons as you could fit on the sides, packed with however many heavy bolters you could model into each sponson. But since all the sponsons are just one weapons choice, since it doesn't specify, then one weapon destroyed result would take out all the sponsons and whatever weapons they contained.

Oh, and technically a Predator has four sides (front side, right side, left side, back side). Just saying.

There's a certain level of common sense that goes along with this game, and when you lack it, you look like a total douche.

And if someone really wanted to be a douche they could also claim a top side and under side for 6 sides. But when you go to the vehicle section of the book it doesn't list the front as front side armour just front armour so we know that there are only 2 sides.

the codex does not say "4 x storm eagle rockets " so therefore the whole rack is one weapon

But rack isnt a piece of gear for the vehicle, and rack certainly isnt a weapon. So the weapon destroyed result has to destroy multiple rockets, there is no rack to destroy.


Sliggoth

The Imperial Guard Codex lists the Storm Eagle rocket as the Manticore's weapon, and yes there are four rockets. However, it also lists the Hydra's weapon as the Hydra Autocannon. If you follow the logic that you need to pop each individual Storm Eagle rocket with a separate weapons destroyed result, it would also follow that you need to destroy each individual autocannon on a Hydra with a separate weapons destroyed result.

I personally take this as evidence that the RAW want the Manticore to have one weapon with limited ammunition. One weapon that can be destroyed with one weapon destroyed result.

ChrisWWII wrote:However, it also lists the Hydra's weapon as the Hydra Autocannon.

No, it doesn't. Try reading the codex.

Page 102

Two twin-linked Hydra autocannons

So it does take 2 WD to kill off a Hydras Turret (and 3 To brick it) while it only takes one to kill the turret of a Manticore (two to brick it).

Gwar! wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:However, it also lists the Hydra's weapon as the Hydra Autocannon.

No, it doesn't. Try reading the codex.

Page 102

Two twin-linked Hydra autocannons

So it does take 2 WD to kill off a Hydras Turret (and 3 To brick it) while it only takes one to kill the turret of a Manticore (two to brick it).

Woops, my mistake. I only flipped to the vehicle's entry on page 51 when I was looking that up. Sorry.

Black Blow Fly wrote:I agree with Gwar. Ignore the troll, he is obviously trolling.

G

So the troll is the guy confused by the Storm Eagle Rockets rule, and not the guy equating that confusion to T11 Space Wolves with FNP? Really?

I think that a neutral reading favors the notion that "Storm Eagle Rockets" are a single weapon system, but this isn't nearly as clear-cut as Gwar! claims, and the accusations that people who get the rule wrong are base cheaters is uncalled for.

And there still is the bsic problem that no one has addressed. The listing is rockets, plural. So if we take the weapon to actually be what is written, then it is more than one rocket. And the weapon destroyed result only destroys one weapon.

The entire vehicle is called "manticore rocket launcher", so the launcher itself is the entire vehicle...and thus far no one has suggested that a weapon destroyed rsult destroys the entire vehicle.

The only place that the word rack is used is under the limited ammunition rule, not under the the rockets rule at all. And its always the manticore rocket launcher (ie the vehicle) thats described as firing or launching the rockets. So there really is no launcher described as a weapon that could be destroyed, at least so far as the rules are concerned.


So it isnt as clear cut as some would have us believe, we need to delev deeply into the fluff to come up with a launcher that can be destroyed to remove all rockets. The two models dont particularly help the situation, one model not really having a rack, the other having a rack/ turret.


Sliggoth

Makes sense anyway. You pop one of those rockets on the rack and you've got a Vehicle Explodes result... WD probably just means the guy who knows how the press the 'fire' button died.

You people do realize basiclh yelling yes! No! Yes! No! Isn't going to help anyone, infact after Reading all your babaling my head hurts =(

Toss a coin, Do Something original!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, there Is 2 pages, aww I've got to read another frakin page.

for the millionth time Gwar! is right, looking at the wargear it has 4 pieces of wargear, 2 weapons "storm eagle rockets" and "heavy bolter" and smoke launcher and searchlight.
2 weapons; so when you receive a weapon destoyed result you may either destroy the storm eagle rockets or the the heavy bolter.
certain people believe that there are (4) storm eagle rockets, but what do they cite? nothing. the confusion arises from the special ability "limited ammunition" which states " once the manticore rocket launcher has fired 4 times it has run out of ammunition. it cannot be rearmed and hence cannot be fired again during the same game."
arguing that the storm eagle rockets are 4 weapons because they can be fired 4 times per game is like arguing that a revolver is 6 weapons because it has six shots, quite absurd...

so in summation the manticores weapons are "storm eagle rockets" (a weapon which because of its special rule can only be fired 4 times per game) and a heavy bolter.
/ thread

I asked last Sunday at my FLGS and was told that the rockets are 4 seperate weapons, I am confused now :(

I don't know anything about the manticore or it's stats, but just by looking at it it would seem to me that it's just one weapon. I would even think that a "weapon destroyed" result could destroy the vehicle considering the explosion one of those missiles would cause sitting on top of the tank.

It's a rack of missiles, described the same way (almost, but good enough) as the skyray missile rack. It's a single weapon with 4 single shots, as if you only brought four bolter rounds for your bolt pistol.

Though honestly, Guard have enough crap going for them, why even try to argue that your tank needs 4 WD's to be an ineffective shooter when you have a bazillion?

The arguement is being made that the rockets are 4 different weapons because... its quite possible that they are 4 weapons.


Under the wargear it does indeed say storm eagle rocketS. That is plural, meaning that there are more than one. How do we know how many more than one? By looking back at the entry on pg 54 we find that there are 4 rockets.

If there was only one weapon, then the entry could have been written as the SM whirlwind, where there is indeed a lisitng for a multiple missle launcher.

But thats not the way the gear is listed on the manticore. The weapons listed are rockets...plural...so if we apply a weapon destroyed result...singular...we can only destroy one rocket.


The entire vehicle is the "manticore rocket launcher", and its mentioned that the manticore fires the rockets...




The key problem is that the wargear lisiting is for the rockets. For other missiles/ rockets each weapon destroyed result is applied to one missile/ rocket, the storm eagle listing tells us that there are more than one rocket so why exactly are we trying to destroy more than one weapon (rocket) per weapon destroyed result?


Sliggoth

Manticores are listed as having 'Storm Eagle rockets'.

Stormravens are listed as having 'Four Bloodstrike missiles'.

There's a clear difference between the two.

Yes there is a difference between the two. But...there is still that nasty little s at the end of rockets so if the rockets are the weapons, then we know that there are more than one of them.



Sliggoth

How would a tech priest repair a weapon that just got blown to pieces and that has explosive rockets on it? Wouldn't be much left with s10 and all.

And just one weapon after all if a rack did get blown up then there would be random rockets sitting on your tank. Not a very good idea to fire rockets in that situation.

ChocolateGork wrote:How would a tech priest repair a weapon that just got blown to pieces and that has explosive rockets on it? Wouldn't be much left with s10 and all.

Probably the same way he would repair any other weapon that got destroyed. A lascannon blows off your heavy bolter? A meltagun destroys one of your Hellfury missiles? No problem! The techpriest will just pull out his handy dandy repair kit and fix them up good as new!

Sliggoth wrote:Yes there is a difference between the two. But...there is still that nasty little s at the end of rockets so if the rockets are the weapons, then we know that there are more than one of them.



Sliggoth

Hellfire Bolters consist of 3 twin linked bolters, it does not take 3 weapon destroyed results to blow up each one.

Storm Eagle Rockets is a single weapon that may fire 4 times, it's very clear in the IG codex.

GWar is right.

Aramoro

@aramoro Hurricane bolters? If thats what you mean, hurricane bolters are fired as one weapon, so they are one weapon. Manticore rockets however are not fired as one weapon.

If the codex listed the wargear as a storm eagle rocket launcher, then it would be clear and would indeed be destroyed by one weapon destroyed result. However, they listed the wargear as storm eagle rockets. Which we are told are four separate rockets, fired not only separately but on separate turns. So if the rockets are weapons (which the listing under wargear seems to suggest) then we cannot remove more than one weapon per hit.


And thats the key problem. If the rockets themselves are weapon, then we have to realize that there are more than one rocket. So more than one weapon cannot be destroyed with one weapon destroyed result.

If the codex had worded it as a rack or launcher under the wargear section then it would be clear. But they went and called the wargear rockets...plural. So we have a very high bar here to clear, which thus far no one has been able to do.


If the rockets are weapons (more than one weapon, we know there are foru to start) then how can multiple weapons be destroyed with one weapon destroyed result? Thats what we need to answer.


There is no rack that we can point to as a weapon, not in terms of a weapon destroyed result.



Sliggoth

There's no bar to clear, it's one weapon. Stop be so obsequious.

If it was 4 different weapons it would say 4 Storm Eagle Rockets, it doesn't it has Storm Eagle Rockets as one weapon.

Aramoro

Sliggoth wrote:Manticore rockets however are not fired as one weapon.

So you can take all four shots in one round?

People are getting hung up on the wording of the weapon. Just because it says "Storm Eagle Rockets" doesn't mean there are multiple weapons.

I could have a weapon called "Multiple Bunnies" and it would still be one weapon.

You don't start with 4 rockets. You start with Storm Eagle Rockets, a weapon which may fire 4 times.