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@everyone-If my words have offended I apologize. See I know how to do that, try it some time.

Still doesn't change the point that this was the weasel kings thread and none of you would listen when he said that he wasn't looking for your lists.

notabot187 wrote:

focusedfire wrote: As far as any question about competency goes, I feel it falls to my side. This is due to my having a more comprehensive grasp of the Tau Armies abilities and broader use of a greater variety of tactics.

Sorry, I was going to ignore this post until I got to this part.

Talk about arrogant. This entire post, and nearly everything you have said this entire thread has been insulting in tone, and often not even indirectly. For somebody who tries OH so hard to enforce proper forum etiquette, you certainly come across like an

Sure, the other guys here haven't exactly stopped this train wreck of a thread from going up in flames... But most of the worst of it was in response to YOUR tone and rather insulting way of bringing your point across.

Personally I think the whole stelek thing that you mentioned is rather silly, trying to play the martyr dieing for the sins of another, spreading your message of the greater good. Give me a break.

As to my claim of knowing the Tau better. I just said blatantly what all of you have neen trying to say without manning up to say it. If your upset by the statement tough, we have all been engaged in essentially beating our chests and declaring that we each know best. As to whether the statement is true Heh, Toss a coin at least it will end the argument.

As far as Stelek goes, Half of what I said was joking the other half,.... yeah, I used to get a lot of stuff meant for the big S.
Does it bother me? No, it is more of a running joke.

Does the influx of what must be the refugees from Tau online and their immediate chest thumping bother me? Not really.

Do I really care whether you agree with me or not? No.

Do I care that your actions might chase others away from this sight and game. Most definitely yes.

Kirby wrote:^ Agree with notabot187. If you think my original message was condescending, that's fine; it wasn't but I know you like externally attributing. I also have never talked about this thread or Dakka on my blog, that's Dethtron's. Notice how I put down one link to my blog and others referenced other pages and other blogs.

re: Ethereal's death; correct, woops. No idea why I thought rage >.<. Still doesn't overcome the fact you're forcing your whole army to take Ld tests on crappy Tau Ld when a single model dies and you can't get double re-rolls thanks to COmmanders being a requirement. I'd love to mech up my suits btw.

I reference you to my previous posts and the one link I laid down to reply to your points as you're just repeating yourself, externally attributing on me and basically having a whine. You're trying to propose bad units as a codex being 'flexible.' There is no need for an opinion about that, Warhammer 40k has a lot of grey but there is a fair amount of black & white about it, too. I.e. Crisis > Stealths. TH/SS > VV (Vanilla). etc.

No whine, I have listened to the repetive complaint that the Tau are such a limited mon-build army. I have been disagreeing. So really, "Who is doing the whinning here?" Sounds like transference.

Hey, Your the one coming to dakka and claiming to be an authority. You didn't really think that I'd let a rules mistake slide, did you? BTW, Put your suits on the farside of the board, it gives them room to fall back.

Seriously, Their are more tactics avalaible. If you don't want to recognize them? Fine, but don't argue that they are the only ones. Especially when dealing with newer players that have said that they do not want your cookie cutter list.

Kroot Loops wrote:Yep, I don't agree with most of Focused Fire's theories, but eh, if he wants to play Ion Cannon Hammerheads and sacrifice fusion suit ninja tau, let him. You want to feed one unit a turn to my entire army four four rounds? By all means.

Besides, when my rail guns have cratered three Monoliths in turn 1 while he's still realizing he has nothing in his entire army that can deal with them, the party is just getting started.

As for the Tau Semi final wins, it wasn't the list or the generals, it was extremely favorable match ups. Chaos Daemons and Necrons against Tau? Please. And an Ork list without Buzzsaws on it's deff koptas that didn't manage to kill a single AV 10 open topped vehicle for four turns? Yeah. When they play Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or IG and win, then I'll be impressed.

In the issue of Broadsides versus Hammerheads, Hammerheads are more flexible being able to switch between solid shot and submunition rounds, while Broadsides are better at killing vehicles. If the Hammerhead gets a weapon destroyed result, it becomes a pathetic Str 5 AP 5 platform, but if Broadsides get assaulted the squad is pretty much done shooting for the rest of the game.

2 hammerheads and a team of broadsides with a HW target lock on the team leader can shoot at four targets a turn, 2 teams with HW target locks on team leaders and a hammerhead can shoot at five targets a turn

Submunition blast is greater than an Ion Cannon against anything except single targets (Monstrous Creatures and the like), and 3+ saves in the open (Submunition blast is still equal here if you manage to catch six under the large blast.)

Yea!! Kroot Loops,

Realizes that I have my way and theories about how to play my Tau, just as he has his thoeries and ways of playing his.

He understands the concept.

Also note, I have never once alluded to the "Sub-optimal units being superior". Only that they can be useful depending upon the scale of the game.

The difference between the sides has been while others have been trying to limit options to the point of ignoring the OP, I have been trying to give him the options available to the requested list and level of play.


For anyone else, Kroot loops and I have disagreed before with no acrimony. I hope that the rest of you know that I bear no ill will to any of you. People disagree with me, its a part of life on the forums.

Smurfy wrote:Personally watching the thread for awhile now, as well as been just a lurker here for awhile, a LONG while.

Everything is indeed opinion in the end, but I do hope for some realization things can be learned from both sides.

Focusfired -

1) I have played Tau for a bit, not long, but I have watched others play using said tactics you do and compared to how I do using the others tactics in this thread...I do better. Is it because I'm the better general using those tactics or is it because I'm getting lucky? (Or otherwise?)

2) Many MANY Tau Empire players ignore the uses of Kroot, but like many others in this thread, I inquire as to what exactly the Fire Warriors do superior to Kroot for what the army needs? I know you didn't say Kroot are useless, I just find your argument that "Fire Warriors still have their uses over Kroot" kinda ill-founded. I feel Tau Troop slots are slacking, in all honestly. Like Eldar, I love their models, though their flexibility in roles is not what I would like in 5th Edition. (Where their roles are valued and supporting the rest of the list, Kroot come very close to this in the Tau Empire, but not quite as sometimes their poor morale bites me back.

3) Piranhas I feel are like a passive aggressive threat if not used in the way Kirby's saying. Reserving them and keeping them off table to "Surprise" isn't exactly valued as you're letting the enemy gain ground. Keep them on the table, have faith in your AV 11 (And 4+ Cover if you gave 1 a Disruption Pod.) and that if the enemy shoots your Piranhas, that's much better off than them shooting your Crisis Suits.

4) While I have personally never faced a TL FB kinda suit DSing, again I think it's a bad use of a Elites slot much like C:SM Termicide. It comes down, hopes to kill a tank or something big, then dies from the opponent's reaction. Same deal for FWs getting out of their hiding holes. Str 5 is cool...but not that cool.

Anyways, I can't help but feel your smug attitude either, so I'm with notabot on this.

1)Undoubtably your the better general
BTW, Which tactics said tactics are you reffering too?


2)I never once argued that the FW have uses over the Kroot, If anything, I argued their uses. Let me make this clear. THE OP STATED A PREFERENCE FOR NOT RUNNING KROOT. As such I was giving advice toward what his stated desires for his list were.

As a side note:IMO, Fire warriors are decent and will only need a small tweek in the next codex. I do not think that they are the huge ball of suckage many others do, they are just 5th ed infantry. Now this last statement does not mean that I am ignoring the overal mechanization of the game. It was an isolated evaluation.

3)Posi-relay andPiranha in reserve, Enemy getting close to a unit set out there for them to attack. Kauyon. Tau work well when you use them to hunt. Look at it like this.
First turn, enemy charges forward stops too far away for the Pirahna to both get within 6" and fire, and pops smoke.
If pirahna are on table they get shot while being mostly useless but they block
If off the table they wait for their alpha strike
Turn two, Enemy get close
If pirahna are on table they get shot some more and do more blocking
If in reserve they have 83.333% chance of coming in. If they come in. they wreck the front row and log jam the enemy vehicles.

The difference between My approach and other posters here is that I have the choice of which I'm going to use

4)If you have never faced a 2-3 fusion suit DS-ing list i again must ask what lists and tactics similar to mine have you watched?
Honestly I think it is a fair question.

As far as smugness goes. your confusing smug with Cohones. The conversation had devolved into a I'm right your wrong on the part of the ther side and figured I'd man up and call it as I saw it. Can you argue that all of this wasn't a bunch of chest beating about how was more competent to give advice. Only difference between the sides id that I had the cohones to go against the herd and try to give the OP what he asked for.

1) The tactics of blocking/layering/good target priority. All marks of a good Tau general, of course

2) All I gotta say about the Piranha issue is this - Only against AV 13+ do i have to get within 6" of the vehicle I want dead, but if I'm waiting off-table to do this, I am not stopping their transports in their Deployment Zone but rather now midfield or (Worst-Case Scenario) in my deployment Zone. (As with that BA army - My 4 Piranhas stay on field vs. that, abite in the back behind most things if I don't get first turn. 2nd Turn they zoom and help block the crowded front-lines of BA Fast vehicles and Jump Troops back up.)

This can extend to many armies outside Tau. Against anything fast, you wanna prevent it from moving where it likes as much as possible. Heck, last game I was in I even had to make a sacrificial Pathfinder line to keep my Crisis Suits safe from charges. Sacrifice is a BIG thing in general, and Tau really do have units that embrace this concept. "For the Greater Good."

3) I've seen DS'ing suits in general kept in Reserve to do the Ninja Tau thing mainly. As my Eldar I laughed this tactic off, I Turbo'd into their deployment zone and waited as their units came trickling in 1 by 1 unit a turn or the opponent tried to bring everything on a 4+. Sometimes even the opponent couldn't hide the Pos. Relay. But times it did live and hide? Man, that was a 15 minute 2000 pt game, lol. Now, with Pathfinder Devilfish and dropping you have less risk mind you, but I still inquire as to whether or not this is a good thing for the Crisis Suits to get this close? IMO, it never is.

there are four heavy flamers and three hand flamers in the list, flamers make kroot bubble wrap evaporate. Outflanking Baal preds that can zoom 18" in from the short edge also do nasty things to Kroot wrap, tank shock out of no where making your ld 7 shield suddenly susceptible to just running away.

Models that can switch to single file are *very* difficult to block with Piranha compared to vehicles. But even if the jump troops have to deal with the pirahna, that's going to be 5 melta shots inside of the 12" bubble, followed by something like 111 attacks at strength 5 or better?

Don't sell the fast Vindicators short. If you don't get first turn, they can scoot forward 12" and drop a str 10 pie plate on two units of suits, and failed saves ID's suits, and can drastically lower your fire power. you're also going to have a hard time stretching out a Piranha wall to stop the vindi's and three seperate jump squads.

Lets assume you have the maximum possible suits in a standard Tau list (15). at greater than 12", with the Librarians 5+ cover save shield, you kill ~4 Marines with Plasma. Oh, here is the fun part, 30 missile pod shots kill ~2 marines. Within 12", and again assuming the librarian's power, all 15 crisis suits combined kill about 10 marines. So here it is, two turns of shooting from 15 suits has netted you roughly a squad and a half dead. This number could be lower if they are ever behind actual cover for a 4+ versus the psychic power's 5+. It could also be higher if the psychic power failed, but on ld 10 I wouldn't count on that over much, but even with JSJ, once you are able to double tap, you're in assault range and it's just about game over.

Now 15 crisis suits in a list is pretty rare, you typically see 6-9, so imagine how much that killing potential drops.

Tau live and die by target priority. What are you shooting at here? You have a dreadnought in your backfield using it's heavy flamer on your kroot, three assault squads of death approaching at the same speed, two fast vehicles dropping str 10 ap 2 large blasts on you, and any moment now you're going to have three fast vehicles with heavy flamers and rending shots coming in from the short edges, which smushes you towards the center of the board.

Priorities:

Closest units make it a bit easier but still if you INSIST they're somehow all reaching us Turn 1 at the same time. (Unlikely, man maybe some people don't deploy out to the edge of their deployment zones?) here we go:

I'd prolly aim for the ASM, seeing as we hate Assault.

We can use Rails on Vehicles from the Hammerheads and Broadsides, and the Hammerheads, unlikely having to move since they wont be reached first turn still, can split fire their rails and secondary systems to fire on the ASM some more. My typical 2k list has it's Piranhas able to split fire, soo I think I'll use them to take care of that, though I donno how you're getting in the Tau's backfield with a proper layer up again. Leave no space for the Pod, it can't land there. Inertial Guidance System does NOT help here.

Kroot, if well-deployed from Infiltrate and normal Deployment, are free to shoot at the ASM as well.

Crisis are happy shooting from 24", though if we get the sacrificial bubble right, we can indeed fire from within 12" if they feel confident enough to wipe a unit out without the counter-attack being too hazardous.

Hand Flamers and normal Flamers hit very few Kroot in good bubble mode in reality, kinda hard to get a flank shot on a bubble that won't let you land on the side of it?

Again, even though Vindies are "Nasty Str 10 AP 2 Large Blasts" I am not afraid terribly of them. You spread out your suits, you have cover saves, and hope for the best since your main priority is most often the ASM and scoring choices. I play SM Bikers quite often facing against IG and their artillery. Same case with them, spread out and hope to pass Cover Saves. It can happen, and by your steadfast belief in stats/math I think you are failing to assume you only kill maybe 2 suits if you're lucky?

You're somehow shooting all those guns on a vehicle to full effect? I strongly doubt that sir, Pred tries to close the distance it also gets dead and done if it causes that much trouble...Which it shouldn't if we're following math/statistics. It's nice to use those as a guide, but in a game, I know that dice can betray/surprise. It's also nice you spend so much time on my Kroot, I believe that's their point. Sure, sacrificing a Scoring choice. But if it gets me a tie rather than a loss, so be it?

All-in-all Sir, I can't deny your math but I can tell you it is possible to delay even the "crazy BA" and it is possible to figure out a proper Target Priority even under pressure.

mythological wrote:

Hey, 'subtle' attacks. Yay!

Listen up, ballbag, just because relying on the opponent being stupid enough to leave a viable target exposed (because, what? You lie/omit the reality about having Fusion Guns in Reserve, Deep Striking in? LOLXXORZ!) works for you, doesn't mean it's a good tactic.

Just because some things are very good at Deep Striking, and Deep Striking Melta, doesn't mean that Crisis teams aren't paying a stupidly high opportunity cost.

Also, wake up please, this is 2010. Getting your points back is one of the least efficient ways to measure the effectiveness of units in 40k - this is neither WFB, nor 3rd Edition 40k. If you MUST consider it in almost baseless, arbitrary ways, how about Kill Points. One for one. Oooh, sign me up.

I'll bite, I say that I have a monat suit coming in from reserve, what is the opponent going to do, make an fortress around my primary target, maybe a three layered defense shield around it? hmmm, that's weird, I don't remember many opponents going that far out of the way to stop one (completly ineffienct, as you call it, suit from getting a melta in the back) According to you, they should have nothing to worry about.

And making their points back is getting that kill point back. Say the monat pops a rhino with beserkers in it. 1 KP for me, now those beserkers have to RUN UP through all of my shots, chances of them succeeding are very low and will most likely give me another KP. So the 1 KP suit has successfully given me 2 KPs, I think that is worth it, no?

Stupidly high opportunity cost ehh, lets look at that for a second:

1 monat suit (TL fusion blaster, targetting array) 53 points

add 2 gun drones if you want, 73 points. If you need some surprise in your army and have a pathfinder fish, this becomes a good tactic for the army. This is not to say that this should be your only tactic, but when the rest of your army is plugging away on your side of the board, it is nice to cause some confusion that will keep the enemy from getting to your fragile units.

I don't remember you insulting me. If you did, then my comment obviously refers to you, but it wasn't aimed at you. Not the insult, leastaways.

As regards the fallacy in your post, I'll merely point out that Opportunity Cost =/= Points Cost.

I assume this is just misreading on your part, and that you understand Opportunity Cost, as to do otherwise is terribly condescending. If you don't, I would be happy to explain, but probably will not do it as eloquently as Raptor1313 on his blog Spite for the Dice Gods. Google it if interested.

Oh, and vs Chaos = poor example. Not least because one of two things is true here:
The Berzerkers are on an objective, in which case they won't advance (why should they?) OR
The Berzerkers have had at least one turn, and possibly up to 5 turns, of advancing on your position. I cannot believe your odds of destroying them are not better with a TLMP for that length of time.

I don't remember you insulting me. If you did, then my comment obviously refers to you, but it wasn't aimed at you. Not the insult, leastaways.

As regards the fallacy in your post, I'll merely point out that Opportunity Cost =/= Points Cost.

I assume this is just misreading on your part, and that you understand Opportunity Cost, as to do otherwise is terribly condescending. If you don't, I would be happy to explain, but probably will not do it as eloquently as Raptor1313 on his blog Spite for the Dice Gods. Google it if interested.

Oh, and vs Chaos = poor example. Not least because one of two things is true here:
The Berzerkers are on an objective, in which case they won't advance (why should they?) OR
The Berzerkers have had at least one turn, and possibly up to 5 turns, of advancing on your position. I cannot believe your odds of destroying them are not better with a TLMP for that length of time.

I was never insulting you, I just quoted the entire passage for simplicity's sake.

Yes, I understand that opportunity cost is not points cost. I was stating that if you have around 60 points and you need the extra kick in your list, then a deepstriking suit is a viable option.

If you have a pos. relay in your list (which I highly recommend) that suit should be coming in turn 2, 3 if you are very unlucky.

About the senerio, it was not specifically chaos as I was just searching for a relevent example. The point is the same as they lost their protection and now have to rely on cover saves against low AP weapons.

Where did you get the TL MP anywho? I'm pretty sure there are more important things that they should be shooting.

It means you don't have 3 suit squads firing every turn, instead you have 2 and one that show up and potentially damages a rhino. Melta shots form derpstrike isn't a gimme. Put your guy close enough, you can scatter onto them, or even scatter too far away. Position him safely, you are more likely to not have 2d6 armor pen. S8 with BS 4 (TL in this case) against even AV 10 won't always take out that transport. If you get in 2d6 pen range, its still even chances you destroy it (though better than even it at least immobilize it). If you aren't in melta range, you have a 50/50 for a pen, which has a 50/50 for a destroyed. I just don't like those odds for an effectively suicide squad. Not to mention if they are smoked that turn, then it is really getting into the low chances of doing what you want.

I completly understant and agree with you, yet what if there is not enough points for 3 full teams in the list where you are running smaller games? I do not use them personaly but still see their potenial on the battle field and if the commander takes the risk it could have benefits

focusedfire wrote:

Kirby wrote: @focusedfire; looking at our initial posts you'll find the first "personal dig" comes from you (if you really find me saying the OP was looking for competitive tactics a personal dig, well can't help you) so stop with the high and mighty road.

Actually you started it with a condescending tone and advice to read what equated to a remedial education blog for Tau players.


If these attemted jabs are the extent of you Aussies command of the English language, I can see why the Brits kicked you guys out.

IMO,Your last sentence in the above makes you sound like TFG. That sentence alone indicates a completely self-centered dis-associative attitude towards your fellow gamers. It indicates someone that feels the game is all about them and their desires.

As far as the psycho-analysis is concerened, just be happy that I'm not charging you $275 an hour.


Again you need to learn to use the letters, IMO. Also you again make yourself sound like a noob in that the game was originally designed as a squad battle game. IMO, If any thing the 1750+ games are innapropriate for a system that has out grown the mechanics it operates on. For anything over 1000 - 1250 pts GW needs to recalculate the represented distances and move towards a d10 system. But that is a topic for another threads. I will end my side of the scale arguement by pointing out that I feel your comment about "1000 pts isn't 40K" may, to many, completely wreck any credibility you might have.



Oh yeah, Ellesar and I have disagreed on the subject of deepstrikers before. We both agree to disagree.

Kirby wrote:5) FW -> Ya DA bladestorming or FW w/markerlights can prob drop a squad. Shame you've open yourself to reprisal from the rest of the horde when you could stay cooped up in your transport and block/tankshock/moveaway/etc. Jumping out of your transport limits your flexibility which you try to advocate (specifically in army list building which you think comes from different unit types). Seeker missiles on DFish/Piranhas are always going to be hit & miss due to their complete reliance on another unit. And I'm still sacrificing Piranhas or Crisis suits (or again making them an even bigger target with Marker Drones) to get those army wide Markerlights. When Tau can field a couple markerlights here, and a couple markerlights there, Seekers will become more useful but because they are concentrated in PF squads or otherwise have huge opportunity costs (SkyRays, Stealths), it's not efficient to run this type of list.

Yeah, Lets go ahead and let the melta vets camped on the objective use their death or glory to keep us from winning the game because we were to scared to disembark our anti-geq unit and eradicate them. Go ahead, hide in your transports and give the game to your opponent.


What I was saying is that you are arguing with the guy that has fought to make the Tau an accepted and viable army on this forum.
Not an easy thing to do when a certain very controversial figure had half of the forum hating the Tau simply due to association with his name. It was tough. People constantly confused us because we both played Tau and have a thing for Star Blazers based Avatars.

As far as any question about competency goes, I feel it falls to my side. This is due to my having a more comprehensive grasp of the Tau Armies abilities and broader use of a greater variety of tactics.

As you can see, I'm cherrypicking, to respond to each thing in order more easily and concisely. Anyone who feels the post is unfairly represented is welcome to go read it themselves. Now...

Actually, you started on Notabot, IMO with a patronising, condescending 'I have moar posts so I's right, RAWR!' attitude. Whether that was the intent, I cannot say. That is how it came across.

A smilie does not excuse racism/xenophobia during an already heated debate.

A person's enjoyment of a GAME is entirely for themselves to worry about. If you don't play the game because of your own desires, then you shouldn't be playing the game. If my opponents aren't having fun, in a pick-up game, then maybe we can sort something - but in a competitive game, then get a grip, and don't be so tied to your toy soldiers that your happiness is contingent upon a luck-based game system. If you don't cry when someone kills you in HALO, don't bloody cry when I kill your Calgar.

If you attempted to charge for psycho-analysis on a forum, I would actually LOVE to see the Court's expression when I didn't pay.

Rogue Trader was designed as a Squad battle Game. 5e 40k has as much in common with RT as it does with 8e Fantasy. In fact, probably less. 40k has not been a skirmish game since at least 2001. Internet, get over it, please. As regards the failure to recalculate scale, the better representativeness allowed by a d10 system etc etc, you are correct - but, if we don't like the game they produce, we can stop any time. Either way, the Designers do not properly test at 1000 points, and the Design Team do not aim for this to be a level the game is played at. The missions are not designed for this, as Seize Ground clearly illustrates.

I do not remember previous disagreement, though I will take your word for it. If you have a link handy, I'd appreciate it.

There is no need to be stupid. Clearly if it is the last turn and there is a disembarked enemy that needs to die and cannot be Tank Shocked away, then you get out. That kind of suggestion is beneath a tactical thread, as it is so mind-numbingly obvious that I don't think anyone unable to spy it for themselves deserves to play the game. Or indeed, a place in Western society, but that's another debate entirely.

Comparison to Stelek is dumb. Not least, because they are more likely to confuse you for your attitude. Difference is, I like him. lol Though I am disappointed that your familiar-looking Avatar did not strike me as being a Wave-Motion Cannon until you said that. What can I say, I never watched it. Not old enough. lol

Final sentence - the most arrogant thing in this thread. It's like someone invited Gwar! and Stelek into a blender, and typed what came out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mythological wrote:

I don't remember you insulting me. If you did, then my comment obviously refers to you, but it wasn't aimed at you. Not the insult, leastaways.

As regards the fallacy in your post, I'll merely point out that Opportunity Cost =/= Points Cost.

I assume this is just misreading on your part, and that you understand Opportunity Cost, as to do otherwise is terribly condescending. If you don't, I would be happy to explain, but probably will not do it as eloquently as Raptor1313 on his blog Spite for the Dice Gods. Google it if interested.

Oh, and vs Chaos = poor example. Not least because one of two things is true here:
The Berzerkers are on an objective, in which case they won't advance (why should they?) OR
The Berzerkers have had at least one turn, and possibly up to 5 turns, of advancing on your position. I cannot believe your odds of destroying them are not better with a TLMP for that length of time.

I was never insulting you, I just quoted the entire passage for simplicity's sake.

Yes, I understand that opportunity cost is not points cost. I was stating that if you have around 60 points and you need the extra kick in your list, then a deepstriking suit is a viable option.

If you have a pos. relay in your list (which I highly recommend) that suit should be coming in turn 2, 3 if you are very unlucky.

About the senerio, it was not specifically chaos as I was just searching for a relevent example. The point is the same as they lost their protection and now have to rely on cover saves against low AP weapons.

Where did you get the TL MP anywho? I'm pretty sure there are more important things that they should be shooting.

Sure, but I was putting the TLMP on the Crisis Suit you bought from the Elites.

Instead of the Fusion, you see. Assuming Chaos? No, I seriously doubt there are better things to shoot than Rhinos, lol. IIRC, a MP is AP4? Means you needn't bother trying to kill Oblits or DPs, unless they're close. Better to slow the Zerks/PMs closing on your lines and trying to punch things.

For the points of the Relay (which I think is a good idea, but not one that fits the Tau style very well) and said Suit, we could have a FB Piranha, no? Or a squad of Kroot. I don't really ever see a solo Meltagun as being good for anything...at best you have a 66% chance of killing what you Penetrate - IF you pen, IF you arrive, IF you are on target etc. Comparing Codicies isn't exactly the best way to operate, but compare to a single MM/HF Land Speeder, or 5 Fire Dragons, for 70/80 points respectively. Both are so much better surely it only makes sense to look for alternatives.

Sure, but I was putting the TLMP on the Crisis Suit you bought from the Elites.

Instead of the Fusion, you see. Assuming Chaos? No, I seriously doubt there are better things to shoot than Rhinos, lol. IIRC, a MP is AP4? Means you needn't bother trying to kill Oblits or DPs, unless they're close. Better to slow the Zerks/PMs closing on your lines and trying to punch things.

Meh, I do not necessarily like TLMP for my suits, not enough flexibility unless your putting flamers on those things (and if you're that close you are done alreadly ) Fireknives are the way to go.

For the points of the Relay (which I think is a good idea, but not one that fits the Tau style very well) and said Suit, we could have a FB Piranha, no? Or a squad of Kroot. I don't really ever see a solo Meltagun as being good for anything...at best you have a 66% chance of killing what you Penetrate - IF you pen, IF you arrive, IF you are on target etc. Comparing Codicies isn't exactly the best way to operate, but compare to a single MM/HF Land Speeder, or 5 Fire Dragons, for 70/80 points respectively. Both are so much better surely it only makes sense to look for alternatives.

I myself do not like solo piranhas as I see them as 2 free KPs to the opponent, give me 2...and that's a different story. But I rather have to pos. relay in my list b/c of all the other things that it can do.

Smurfy wrote:Priorities:

Closest units make it a bit easier but still if you INSIST they're somehow all reaching us Turn 1 at the same time. (Unlikely, man maybe some people don't deploy out to the edge of their deployment zones?) here we go:

I'd prolly aim for the ASM, seeing as we hate Assault.

We can use Rails on Vehicles from the Hammerheads and Broadsides, and the Hammerheads, unlikely having to move since they wont be reached first turn still, can split fire their rails and secondary systems to fire on the ASM some more. My typical 2k list has it's Piranhas able to split fire, soo I think I'll use them to take care of that, though I donno how you're getting in the Tau's backfield with a proper layer up again. Leave no space for the Pod, it can't land there. Inertial Guidance System does NOT help here.

Kroot, if well-deployed from Infiltrate and normal Deployment, are free to shoot at the ASM as well.

Crisis are happy shooting from 24", though if we get the sacrificial bubble right, we can indeed fire from within 12" if they feel confident enough to wipe a unit out without the counter-attack being too hazardous.

Hand Flamers and normal Flamers hit very few Kroot in good bubble mode in reality, kinda hard to get a flank shot on a bubble that won't let you land on the side of it?

Again, even though Vindies are "Nasty Str 10 AP 2 Large Blasts" I am not afraid terribly of them. You spread out your suits, you have cover saves, and hope for the best since your main priority is most often the ASM and scoring choices. I play SM Bikers quite often facing against IG and their artillery. Same case with them, spread out and hope to pass Cover Saves. It can happen, and by your steadfast belief in stats/math I think you are failing to assume you only kill maybe 2 suits if you're lucky?

You're somehow shooting all those guns on a vehicle to full effect? I strongly doubt that sir, Pred tries to close the distance it also gets dead and done if it causes that much trouble...Which it shouldn't if we're following math/statistics. It's nice to use those as a guide, but in a game, I know that dice can betray/surprise. It's also nice you spend so much time on my Kroot, I believe that's their point. Sure, sacrificing a Scoring choice. But if it gets me a tie rather than a loss, so be it?

All-in-all Sir, I can't deny your math but I can tell you it is possible to delay even the "crazy BA" and it is possible to figure out a proper Target Priority even under pressure.

ASM deploy 12" forward. On their turn, jump 12", run 1d6", they are now 25-30" across a 48" board, the Assault range of ASM is 18"; you have 0-5" of board space on turn 2. This is why if you can rapid fire we already know you're in assault range. the reason they are all hitting you the same turn is because they have (Mostly) identical speeds

In a screen, by definition, something has to be in front. In this case, it's the Kroot. Since I'm aiming at the kroot, I don't care if the pod can get in your backfield, it's only objective is drop the dread in range to roast those poor t3 no armor save Kroot. Maybe where you play you have perfect cover or something, but everywhere I play if you're going to get 50% of a squad into or behind cover for the save, it creates clumping... which is the perfect target for cover ignoring flamers. I don't have to wipe the squad out, I just have to create a hole in the screen. And even better if I cause enough casualties.. lets not forget that the screens you're relying so heavily on are leadership 7 and, unlike large ork squads, never gain fearless.

A large template is 5", or 2.5" from the center hole. Your bases can be no further than 2" apart. A direct hit on the center suit will hit all three suits, unless you have drones to widen the formation (I always do, but many people don't run drones for reasons ranging from saving points to making it easier to cause a break test.) Even if it only kills one suit, that's a plasma rifle gone which is a serious blow against this list.

No list is 100%. I've played against this list a few times, and it's a tough fight, both experience and math says this list wins against Tau unless *everything* goes right for the Tau. Especially if the BA get to go first. Granted, this is pretty much a tailored list against Tau (and possibly IG/Necrons)

By the way, SM biker list is one of the better lists against IG for the exact same reasons this list is good, it minimizes the shooting the IG can do, has the weapons to deal with their armor (MM in this case), and beats their face in CC.

I admit, this is pretty far off topic now. So back to your regularly scheduled program!

7) Farsight -> not competitive in any sense of the word; you have minimal redundency (yet you said it was good before, too) due to an egg basket unit which is terrible in combat.


My Farsight builds do quite fine, thank you. Please don't make general statements like the above. The Kroot bubble wrap isn't the only way to play Tau despite what Kirby, Stelek, and others say.

Slightly off Topic-
Yay for another trolling attempt by Kirby under another name.

I am humbled , A Kirby/Messenger-of-death tag team of what are obviously the first posts of the same user. Maybe an existing american dakka user bouncing through/hiding behind an Aussie service provider.

BTW, Nice attempt at circumventing the Dakka Policy on politeness by being insult outside of dakka and linking it in to the thread, Thing is, its been done before.

Firstly, I was the one that provided the link to Dethtron's blog. Not Kirby. Secondly, we aren't the same individuals. Or are we And I wasn't trolling. If I was then I wouldn't of returned to the discussion and provided 10 battle reports with Tau.

Now I understand reading 10 battle reports can be a time consuming task. But oddly enough the lists that were performing above expectations (even in the hands of AbusePuppy who admitted he didn't have enough experience with his list) had the same builds* that Kirby et al. are suggesting. A hybrid build with limited Fire Warriors. Kroot and Piranha for blocking and delay tactics. Lots of Crisis Suits built to provide weight of fire (as opposed to suicide duty). And a focus on Railguns in the Heavy Support slot due to the lack of melta weapons throughout the Tau FoC.

Even more odd is that He Who Must Not Be Named (HWMNBN)won every single match with Tau. And was able to beat stjohn70's Thunderwolf cavalry. Click on the stjohn link to see that he is no scrub or noob but rather a competent general that understands 5th edition game mechanics (he is able to win games with a pure Witch Hunters army).

As to the credibilty of all three(Or should I say two or one?) of you. The fact that you claim the Tau is a mono-build in an ever evolving meta-game shows your lack of experience and credibility. Its funny, you guys are like dealing with a special needs class in that I keep giving you the answer but you still don't get where your going wrong.

You imply that we are mentally challenged and then apologies later on in the discussion for anything offensive you may have said. So I'm curious what you experience with special needs classes may be... have you every taught one, been apart of one or have close relatives/friends who have been apart of one? Because I live with 3 younger brothers with vary levels of mental disabilities requiring them to attend special need classes.

Also the ever evolving meta-game is called 5th Edition with 3-5 codices released a year... once you start to build balanced-all comer lists you move away from the rock-paper-scissors environment that you can expect to see in comp tournaments (Kirby is Australian so you can trust his experience regarding tournaments with comp).

@everyone-If my words have offended I apologize. See I know how to do that, try it some time.

You say sorry... and then in you next sentence you continue to be a

BTW, Timmy/Jimmy- Your comment about the post count shows that you are more interested in trolling than communicating. If you weren't, you would have recognized it as a comment about content and having the guts to post where people will disagree with you rather than hiding behind a blog. If this is the limit of Aussie courage these days then I am sad for your nation

Also, your jumping to MoD defense gives credence to the theiry that the two of you are the one and the same. Not saying that you are, just that you are giving such an impression.

It is Kirby and MoD not Timmy/Jimmy. Also just so you know five Australian soldiers died recently while on tour.

If these attemted jabs are the extent of you Aussies command of the English language, I can see why the Brits kicked you guys out.

Twice now you have made racist remarks.

Now the reason I have just quoted focusedfire is because something the weasel king said (also because I find FF offensive).

And as for the arguments, an argument/debate is not only healthy (gets that good ol' blood pumping), but I love reading em from a purely logical point of view and see if one side is making more valid arguments over "I say A and your B is wrong because I say so". You learn a lot not just about what they are saying, but how much they really know about what they are saying. After all, if someone has a large amount of logical fallacies in their argument I tend to take what tactics/advice they give with a grain of salt.

So although FF may have some great ideas to contribute they are IMO littered with belittling remarks.... reminds me of a certain blogger who is unpopular on Dakka Of course that certain blogger doesn't resort to belittling others with racist comments.

the weasel king's comment is also the main reason behind my posting of 10 battle reports... they provide examples of the Kirby et al. army build in action. Baptism in fire and blood.

First and foremost, no matter how good they are I think the kroot are losers. I know they might be decent or even required now but I don't like the way they look/feel/play. Might be my loss but I'm sure there's another way to win lol.

In an old White Dwarf issue there is an article with some Fire Warriors converted into some humanoid lions. They were purely count-as and represented Fire Warriors. So if the kroot miniatures are a major turn off for you there are alternatives. Another option is something that Jimmy from YTTH has done. He has built a Tau army using converted drones. Just imagine drones with the personality of R2-D2 and his assortment of gadgets.

Messanger

N.B. mono-build does not mean that every balanced Tau list is a carbon copy of each other. Rather the codex lacks enough viable options to allow plays to build lots and lots of balanced lists. You will notice for example that although Kirby et al. may agree on what units are viable they will not all result in the exact lists. They will be influenced by their personal preferences.

It doesn't even mean that the other options should never be taken or that the viable options are a must. If you don't want to build a balanced all-comers list that can survive in competitive 5th Edition than you don't have to. And if your an experienced enough general there will get to a point where you can even make un-balanced lists work... assuming of course that your not up against an equally skilled general with a superior list. The it really comes down to mistakes and luck.

Kroot Loops wrote:

ASM deploy 12" forward. On their turn, jump 12", run 1d6", they are now 25-30" across a 48" board, the Assault range of ASM is 18"; you have 0-5" of board space on turn 2. This is why if you can rapid fire we already know you're in assault range. the reason they are all hitting you the same turn is because they have (Mostly) identical speeds

I like this assumption, it assumes the Kroot didn't infiltrate properly to block this very movement from happening. Also remember you aren't always playing the 48" range game. If you are forced to deploy first (the BA) you have a hard time guessing where I want to set up and hole up using the Castling strategy. I'm sure you know as a Tau player that Tau can even set up in the open ground no problem most of the time? (Using their own vehicles as Cover and such.)

In a screen, by definition, something has to be in front. In this case, it's the Kroot. Since I'm aiming at the kroot, I don't care if the pod can get in your backfield, it's only objective is drop the dread in range to roast those poor t3 no armor save Kroot. Maybe where you play you have perfect cover or something, but everywhere I play if you're going to get 50% of a squad into or behind cover for the save, it creates clumping... which is the perfect target for cover ignoring flamers. I don't have to wipe the squad out, I just have to create a hole in the screen. And even better if I cause enough casualties.. lets not forget that the screens you're relying so heavily on are leadership 7 and, unlike large ork squads, never gain fearless.

Front-line is usually supported by a IC if I really need it to hold a bit longer regarding Leadership...Rarely ever are the Kroot bunched up as they can claim cover saves from being so thinly-stringed around making a bubble from natural cover and the sheer size of the area they encompass? Spatial math might be needed here to envision this. A typical Kroot unit I use is 10 Kroot and 5 Hounds. That can be extended to cover 45" of space. I will not go into the whole Tau army regarding that though. Create a hole in the screen and with a proper layer up, you are still forced to charge the front-line. Remember - All charges must be done AND THEN after all charges are done do the reactions take place. So you can't do the Ork argument of them going to use a lone Kopta to draw off the whole line and assault what's behind with the rest. (Again, with a proper layer up this should be difficult/not possible.)

A large template is 5", or 2.5" from the center hole. Your bases can be no further than 2" apart. A direct hit on the center suit will hit all three suits, unless you have drones to widen the formation (I always do, but many people don't run drones for reasons ranging from saving points to making it easier to cause a break test.) Even if it only kills one suit, that's a plasma rifle gone which is a serious blow against this list.

So you have good target priority, bravo sir. I can only hope my anti-tank gets to the Vindicators before they do too much damage.

No list is 100%. I've played against this list a few times, and it's a tough fight, both experience and math says this list wins against Tau unless *everything* goes right for the Tau. Especially if the BA get to go first. Granted, this is pretty much a tailored list against Tau (and possibly IG/Necrons)

By the way, SM biker list is one of the better lists against IG for the exact same reasons this list is good, it minimizes the shooting the IG can do, has the weapons to deal with their armor (MM in this case), and beats their face in CC.

I admit, this is pretty far off topic now. So back to your regularly scheduled program!

Coolies, I don't mean to debate against a list "tailored" against Tau but EVERY list does have a rock to it's scissors.

Elessar wrote:As you can see, I'm cherrypicking, to respond to each thing in order more easily and concisely. Anyone who feels the post is unfairly represented is welcome to go read it themselves. Now...

Actually, you started on Notabot, IMO with a patronising, condescending 'I have moar posts so I's right, RAWR!' attitude. Whether that was the intent, I cannot say. That is how it came across.

Upon rereading my first post to notabot, I can see your point. Where I was addressing the OP and suggesting that he go visit ATT it could also be read as a jab at Notabot. I will edit it for clarity. the only other line that might be considered an attack will also be clarified for what it was intended to be.

My apology up thread still stands. The subsequent lines under the apology also stand as they have no bearing upon the apology but rather they apply to posters not being responsive to the OP's request.

Elessar wrote:A smilie does not excuse racism/xenophobia during an already heated debate.

Depends upon your definition of racism and xenophobia. According to the classical definition of racism my statements were not seeing as we speak the same language and we all come from common ancestry and I am not afraid of aliens so xenophobia does not apply. Basically, I see no real cultural or ethenic differences between us. I joke about where you are from the way aussies joke about americans.

Now if your trying to apply the UN's attempt to re-define the term. It doesn't hold much water. By the UN definition everything is racism, even a football rivalry could be classified as such.It works off of a logic that would equate to saying, "that if it has wheels and moves then it is a Ford." Still this is a conversation for the off topic forum. Seeing as some seem overly sensitive on this subject I will leave off of such comments.

One question, though, "Why no comment about Kirby's dig at the americans?".

Elessar wrote:A person's enjoyment of a GAME is entirely for themselves to worry about. If you don't play the game because of your own desires, then you shouldn't be playing the game. If my opponents aren't having fun, in a pick-up game, then maybe we can sort something - but in a competitive game, then get a grip, and don't be so tied to your toy soldiers that your happiness is contingent upon a luck-based game system. If you don't cry when someone kills you in HALO, don't bloody cry when I kill your Calgar.

The game is one of mutual consent and there is a responsibility to find out what type of game you are engaging in beforehand. I apply the same rules to finding out the posters intent that I do to finding out my opponents desires to what level of game is being expected.

As to your comment about crying, has no basis for being in the conversation, no one has cried about a game result. No crying in the thread that I am aware of, (at everyone)now if one of my comments hurt someones feelings, please let me know which statement hurt your feelings and I will apologize.

Elessar wrote:If you attempted to charge for psycho-analysis on a forum, I would actually LOVE to see the Court's expression when I didn't pay.

+1 to Elassar

Elessar wrote:Rogue Trader was designed as a Squad battle Game. 5e 40k has as much in common with RT as it does with 8e Fantasy. In fact, probably less. 40k has not been a skirmish game since at least 2001. Internet, get over it, please. As regards the failure to recalculate scale, the better representativeness allowed by a d10 system etc etc, you are correct - but, if we don't like the game they produce, we can stop any time. Either way, the Designers do not properly test at 1000 points, and the Design Team do not aim for this to be a level the game is played at. The missions are not designed for this, as Seize Ground clearly illustrates.

Here I strongly disagree. 40k and its game mechanics were designed for a much lower point level to be played on a gaming surface that gave a much larger area to maneuver. GW has been breaking the intended design by pushing larger games to sell more models. Also, GW still supports the lower point games and if it uses the GW 40k BGB, GW Army Codices and uses GW 40K models it is then a game of 40K. Those that argue otherwise should take it up with GW and maybe their part of the internet should get over it.

Elessar wrote:I do not remember previous disagreement, though I will take your word for it. If you have a link handy, I'd appreciate it.

I'll see if it is still in my histories, I seem to remember that it wasn't a direct locking of horns, just that we were of opposing positions. Much like now.

Elessar wrote:There is no need to be stupid. Clearly if it is the last turn and there is a disembarked enemy that needs to die and cannot be Tank Shocked away, then you get out. That kind of suggestion is beneath a tactical thread, as it is so mind-numbingly obvious that I don't think anyone unable to spy it for themselves deserves to play the game. Or indeed, a place in Western society, but that's another debate entirely.

You are right, there is no need but still a plenty of people willing to engage in what you just described because such wasn't covered in the thread they lifted tha advice from. Doesn't necessarily make them stupid, a lotta times just new to the game.

Elessar wrote:Comparison to Stelek is dumb. Not least, because they are more likely to confuse you for your attitude. Difference is, I like him. lol Though I am disappointed that your familiar-looking Avatar did not strike me as being a Wave-Motion Cannon until you said that. What can I say, I never watched it. Not old enough. lol

+2 to Elessar
I like you too.

Elessar wrote:Final sentence - the most arrogant thing in this thread. It's like someone invited Gwar! and Stelek into a blender, and typed what came out.

Thank you for noticing. I just called it as I saw it. The comment was not necessarily that I was better, just that is what the conversation amounted to. I only said aloud what everyone else was implying about themselves.
Check my histories and you will find that statement very uncharacteristc. I will debate tactics and builds, but will mostly always tell everyone that they can take my advice or leave it.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:Firstly, I was the one that provided the link to Dethtron's blog. Not Kirby. Secondly, we aren't the same individuals. Or are we And I wasn't trolling. If I was then I wouldn't of returned to the discussion and provided 10 battle reports with Tau.

I don't know, I have yet to catch you both online at the same time, you both came in with your first post with content that either came across as a "learn to play" or here I'll insult you via a link, but hey I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt now that you have stated that you are not the same person. As two separate people you have both still served to the same purpose of making the thread about what you felt the OP should want as opposed to what he actually wanted. I will say that the mjority goes to the Kirbster here.
As far as trolling, yes you would come come back after posting subjective evidence as a proof that opinion is fact.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:Now I understand reading 10 battle reports can be a time consuming task. But oddly enough the lists that were performing above expectations (even in the hands of AbusePuppy who admitted he didn't have enough experience with his list) had the same builds* that Kirby et al. are suggesting. A hybrid build with limited Fire Warriors. Kroot and Piranha for blocking and delay tactics. Lots of Crisis Suits built to provide weight of fire (as opposed to suicide duty). And a focus on Railguns in the Heavy Support slot due to the lack of melta weapons throughout the Tau FoC.

Again, I have never once said that the build or tactics are ineffective or inferior to the alternative builds and tactics. Go ahead, reread. My sole issue has been with posters not being courteous enough to determine and then honor the OP's goals for his list. You are the one constantly arguing superiorority while I've been offering options that are within the set Paradigm given by the OP. Your posting of the battle reports, first shows subjective evidence as an effort support an opinion as fact argument and second became pointless as soon as the op expressed to play a list from existing models and wished tactics for that army. Any posts after telling him to play models and lists outside of what he described is a form of trolling.

One of the things that I find amusing is that the primary differences here are the approach to how advice is given. I have not said once that the alternative builds were superior, only that they were also viable. Yet people keep acting as if that is my point.
Here are some of the issues I have with some of the posters:

I have not once said that bubble wrapping is bad, yet people are try to act or say that I have. I have only said that the kroot had offensive abilities that equal their defensive.

I have not said that kroot are bad, yet again some here insist upon acting that I have. What I did say was that the OP was expressing that he did not want kroot so that alternatives would need to be used.

I have not said Line Blocking with Piranha is bad, yet again some posters have assumed that I have. What I have said is that Line-blocking is not the Piranhas only or neccessarily primary purpose. I veiw them as an offensive unit that can be defensive, where others veiw them as being almost solely defensive.


Matter of fact I don't think that I have made any claim to lists or tactics being superior, only that I seem to have a superior scope of available alternatives. The only possible exception to this would be my line about being more competent due to use and familiarity with a broader range of tactics and I only posted that as a means of calling everyone out on their attitude.

Am I more competent? Meh, I am just different in that I've used all of the tactics discussed here. I have a my cookie cutter army with only a little of my personal tweaks showing in one crisis teams loadouts, I have A Farsight army that I occasionally pull ou to play and I have my unconventional army that is my test bed for new ideas and counters to new units. Currently it is a mechanized list geared to counter MEQ and Monsterous Creatures.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:You imply that we are mentally challenged and then apologies later on in the discussion for anything offensive you may have said. So I'm curious what you experience with special needs classes may be... have you every taught one, been apart of one or have close relatives/friends who have been apart of one? Because I live with 3 younger brothers with vary levels of mental disabilities requiring them to attend special need classes.

Ex-wife had uncle and close cousins with these challenges, good friend has brother that progressive epilepsy that is destroying the brain through airway constrictions during seizures and blood pressure spikes having caused anuerisms.

As to the challenged comment, I apologize and am sorry to hear such runs so thouroughly through your family. While, the challenged often have the blessing of living a much more innocent life it is an extra demand upon the other family members.
I hope none of them have the physical problems that often accompany such.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:Also the ever evolving meta-game is called 5th Edition with 3-5 codices released a year... once you start to build balanced-all comer lists you move away from the rock-paper-scissors environment that you can expect to see in comp tournaments (Kirby is Australian so you can trust his experience regarding tournaments with comp).

Never argued the concept of balanced lists, only that there are more than one.

From the Rock-paper-scissors comment I take it that you are refering to my comments about nwer codecies changing the game. Please reread what is posted and what it is replying to. The point that I made was that the established balanced builds were drastically affected by some of the new abilities.
A dual tyrant(SL/tyrant), DoM and Mawloc combo on a Broadside castle will most likely rip the layered defense apart on the second turn. Between the new 'nids abilities, Lash and JotWW one of the primary legs of the "standard" tau comp list is becoming less reliable. To those that run the dual Broadsides this is a major change and will still feel like a rock paper scissors effect.
"But no one is running that combo for the 'nids", you say. Yeah, the new faq just came out and the nid players are just now getting to assault on the deepstrike with the mawlock. As to whether they will use the combo regularly will depend upon how mechanized the game becomes overall but even against mech lists the combo has its uses. Basically, time will tell.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:

@everyone-If my words have offended I apologize. See I know how to do that, try it some time.

You say sorry... and then in you next sentence you continue to be a

Or maybe I was pointing out that we all have a share in how the thread is going. Seriously, If something I've said has offended, I apologize. I am now waiting for the return apologies.

Everything after the first line has nothing to d with the apology.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:

BTW, Timmy/Jimmy- Your comment about the post count shows that you are more interested in trolling than communicating. If you weren't, you would have recognized it as a comment about content and having the guts to post where people will disagree with you rather than hiding behind a blog. If this is the limit of Aussie courage these days then I am sad for your nation

Also, your jumping to MoD defense gives credence to the theory that the two of you are the one and the same. Not saying that you are, just that you are giving such an impression.

It is Kirby and MoD not Timmy/Jimmy. Also just so you know five Australian soldiers died recently while on tour.

If these attemted jabs are the extent of you Aussies command of the English language, I can see why the Brits kicked you guys out.

Twice now you have made racist remarks.

As stated in the reply to Elessar, the comments do not fit the classical definition of racism in that my comments are not based upon a difference in language, physical appearance or different root ancestry. Trying to apply the modern UN derived definition leads ro everything being racist. Yet even, then it does not apply because I do not see the Aussie's and Brits as being any more different to the US culturally speaking as say New York is to Atlanta. Sure their are differences but we primarily come from the same basic cultural root.

I do find it intersting that you haven't commented upon your countryman's dig at the american's and that you chose to view it as a racist statement in the first place. Who is the segregationist here?

(Lets leave this for the off-topic forum)

Messanger_of_Death wrote:Now the reason I have just quoted focusedfire is because something the weasel king said (also because I find FF offensive).

And as for the arguments, an argument/debate is not only healthy (gets that good ol' blood pumping), but I love reading em from a purely logical point of view and see if one side is making more valid arguments over "I say A and your B is wrong because I say so". You learn a lot not just about what they are saying, but how much they really know about what they are saying. After all, if someone has a large amount of logical fallacies in their argument I tend to take what tactics/advice they give with a grain of salt.

So although FF may have some great ideas to contribute they are IMO littered with belittling remarks.... reminds me of a certain blogger who is unpopular on Dakka Of course that certain blogger doesn't resort to belittling others with racist comments.

Yet you don't comment upon a jab at americans in general. (Lets leave this alone, now, Do you Agree?)

Now your point about the OP not minding a debate is sound, it doesn't excuse those who continued to push for the use of units he didn't want to use.

BTW, Thank you for the compliment on some of my ideas, even with the dig I accept it as a compliment.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:the weasel king's comment is also the main reason behind my posting of 10 battle reports... they provide examples of the Kirby et al. army build in action. Baptism in fire and blood.

the weasel king wrote:First and foremost, no matter how good they are I think the kroot are losers. I know they might be decent or even required now but I don't like the way they look/feel/play. Might be my loss but I'm sure there's another way to win lol.

In an old White Dwarf issue there is an article with some Fire Warriors converted into some humanoid lions. They were purely count-as and represented Fire Warriors. So if the kroot miniatures are a major turn off for you there are alternatives. Another option is something that Jimmy from YTTH has done. He has built a Tau army using converted drones. Just imagine drones with the personality of R2-D2 and his assortment of gadgets.

Messanger

N.B. mono-build does not mean that every balanced Tau list is a carbon copy of each other. Rather the codex lacks enough viable options to allow plays to build lots and lots of balanced lists. You will notice for example that although Kirby et al. may agree on what units are viable they will not all result in the exact lists. They will be influenced by their personal preferences.

It doesn't even mean that the other options should never be taken or that the viable options are a must. If you don't want to build a balanced all-comers list that can survive in competitive 5th Edition than you don't have to. And if your an experienced enough general there will get to a point where you can even make un-balanced lists work... assuming of course that your not up against an equally skilled general with a superior list. The it really comes down to mistakes and luck.

All of this last I agree with.

I really like the converted drone idea and think is possibly a good answer to the the OP's Kroot issues.


BTW, Again, I harbor no hard feelings or ill will towards anyone here. If you have such towards me, oh well. I'll get over it.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:

the weasel king wrote:First and foremost, no matter how good they are I think the kroot are losers. I know they might be decent or even required now but I don't like the way they look/feel/play. Might be my loss but I'm sure there's another way to win lol.

In an old White Dwarf issue there is an article with some Fire Warriors converted into some humanoid lions. They were purely count-as and represented Fire Warriors. So if the kroot miniatures are a major turn off for you there are alternatives. Another option is something that Jimmy from YTTH has done. He has built a Tau army using converted drones. Just imagine drones with the personality of R2-D2 and his assortment of gadgets.

focusedfire wrote:
I really like the converted drone idea and think is possibly a good answer to the the OP's Kroot issues.

So you guys are saying what? Do some conversions on gun drones, Change the name, count em as kroot? Do people allow this? Would this be allowed in a tournament (major or minor)? Any suggestions/posts that show pics? If this is the case then I will defiantly look into doing it (as soon as I get some money, hip surgery lost me my job )

the weasel king wrote:So you guys are saying what? Do some conversions on gun drones, Change the name, count em as kroot? Do people allow this? Would this be allowed in a tournament (major or minor)? Any suggestions/posts that show pics? If this is the case then I will defiantly look into doing it (as soon as I get some money, hip surgery lost me my job )

Yep, converted gun drones. Maybe this picture of the star wars scout drone will give you ideas:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Viperprobot_negtd.jpg

As to the Tournies? At the local level, Flip a coin and then flip it again. Local tourny policies have a tendency to flip-flop on the subject. Best idea would be to ask your local gaming stores about their tourney policies,...regularly.
As far as the larget events, last I knew conversions were not accepted at most of them. I remember when the model/army just had to be about 70% and they were ok, but then suddenly the conversions weren't welcome. *Anybody-If this is wrong please correct me. I've settled down and haven't been to a tourney in a couple of years.

The problem is the lack of GW backed tourneys in the US. This leaves the matters in the hands of whatever the organizer of each events thinks is fine. I've seen everything from non GW stuff allowed, to only GW kits with 100% GW components (GS and plasticard only to hold it together and hide joints).

Games workshop itself used to be a proponent of "counts as" armies. They also had no problem with massive conversions, such as ork battlewagons (as long as it was mostly GW product being used in each model). As for now, who can tell? They don't even have kits for a large amount of stuff, so I think its probably ok. There might be some issue since they are really going for WYSIWYG. Its hard telling considering how much they communicate with the community (they don't have their own forums, and fan input has been rebuffed, sometimes harshly, in the past)

Usually counts as works if what you are using can't be mistaken for anything else in your army.

mythological wrote:

Sure, but I was putting the TLMP on the Crisis Suit you bought from the Elites.

Instead of the Fusion, you see. Assuming Chaos? No, I seriously doubt there are better things to shoot than Rhinos, lol. IIRC, a MP is AP4? Means you needn't bother trying to kill Oblits or DPs, unless they're close. Better to slow the Zerks/PMs closing on your lines and trying to punch things.

Meh, I do not necessarily like TLMP for my suits, not enough flexibility unless your putting flamers on those things (and if you're that close you are done alreadly ) Fireknives are the way to go.

I completely agree. I was merely suggesting it as I believe it is cheaper, and marginally better vs Vehicles.


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Also, I would, personally, prefer to convert Imperial Guard or Beastmen. In fact, there is no reason why the tau would not ever have Orks in their employ, acting in the same manner as Kroot. In fact, convert Skaven if you want! Anything would go, as far as I'm concerned.

There was a topic on ATT (I'll try to find it when I become a little less lazy ) where a gamer used lizardmen (or something like that) to represent kroot calling them Naga. Same tribal like theme yet they could be made to be very clean and tau like with a little imagination

Edit: found it! the Naga start close to the bottom of turn 4 and are lizardmen that are count as kroots

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9538&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Naga&start=60

On the one hand, that's great work, and a great find. on the other, I have mixed feelings about using something allied to the Slann. lol

But, they're his models, not mine.

I like the idea, but I wana go more technology than lizardy lol. Thanks though.

Servitors?


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There are some clockwork bits in the Empire range too, that could be used?

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Actually, I might be able to use those to make plastic Servitors! Awesome!