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You're the one that went with KSK. I told you you'll get your come-uppins for getting your order first

Pft, I've got enough weaponry to kit out two fireteams as KSK in the field and the other two in a CQB/SpecOps role.

Suck it Metalli!

We're writing the core game before we do the Spec Ops stuff though.

Thus, Ha-Ha, my good man

Well this is interesting. (sorry I'm late, just noticed the thread)

I'm down for helping you with game mechanics. I've written a few skirmish games of my own over the years.

For instance, I think large helicopters are better represented by an abstract system and represented off the table because it is unrealistic to have a flyer restricted to the edges of a game board.

Matchups regarding discipline and training I think would be very important, as well as information. I'm thinking of that 'Blackhawk Down" movie when the two delta force guys held off a huge armed mob for quite a while, and the individual fireteams managed to avoid being overrun because they had a satellite guy back at HQ co-ordinating their movements and monitoring the mob.

Which brings me to another point. Given the chaos and panic that would ensue if the whole world was going down in war, I think "armed rabble" would be a good addition to the possible army choices, as would "local militia". That would be a fun matchup.... Texas Militia versus U.S. National Guard.

You could go the "Red Dawn" movie route too with a bit of improbable heroics and character archetypes thrown in here or there just to keep it dramatic. You know like the "desperate freedom fighter" type of thing.

For inspirational reading I suggest Team Yankee. It covers the story of a single armored company caught in that scenario that is your premise. It's a quick read, and all from the commanders point of view. Also, if you manage to find it, Twilight 2000 by GDW could be a good source of inspiration. Like all GDW games, the rules are very dry, very convoluted, damn near unplayable. But the storyline and 'realism' is pretty good.

Last thoughts for now: name of the game. It wants to be kind of serious but kind of sarcasticly ominous. "Red Sunset", maybe "Last Battles"? That's all I got from the top of my head.

Indeed Air Support will generally be offmap. Chop-Drops might be included in a few missions, where a ground team might have to rush around protecting a wing of Helos from RPG/AA attacks while they get into position to fast-rope some Spec ops units down (Black Hawk Down flavour), but mostly Aerial units will be represented by rules rather than minis.

We're also going to configure points values, abilities, gear, modifiers, etc... to take into account the level of training, equipment, and environmental familiarity of various forces. For example, a Russian combat team would likely be better tuned to winter warfare scenario than an American opponent, and would recieve some kind of bonus for fighting in a "preferred environment".

"Armed Rabble" will be a part of some armies. The Militia and Terrorist factions will have access to an "Armed Mob" unit that will have high numbers and will put out a large amount of small arms fire, but poor accuracy, morale, and little to no armour. "Texas Militia" could indeed be simulated using a Rebel list.

I've seen Red Dawn, but we're not exactly aiming for that Though I do feel like we'll have to include an "Assault the Fast Food Joint" scenario, similar to the BK scene here:



In fact, a lot of the inspiration for this Skirmish game came from playing WiC:

Writing scenarios would be a good way of hashing out independant rules for different situations. Are you going for an abstract system like 40k where things are simplified down to 4 vs 4 = 4+ needed sort of matchup or do you want more details? If more detailed, I would like to suggest using percentages (kind of like that stupid Deadliest Warrior show). In a gunfight, I understand that an AK-74 is different in many ways to an M-16, etc... but an overall success percentage would probably not be too far apart. Not nearly as simple as needing a 3+ on a d6 versus needing a 4+ like warhammer uses. Percentage dice are just as easy to roll as a handful of d6 and give you a lot more leeway to get into minute details.

edit just to add another thought:

Helicopters like a 'black hawk down' type scenario would be a good idea, only on the actual board to do a drop then get out, but giving the other guy a chance to get in a lucky shot while it's there, and with a chance for the door gunners to throw a bit of surpressing fire while it's there and they scramble around deploying. Surpressive fire is a good idea to include in the rules. It seldom hits anything but it definitely pins people into having to either stay in cover or run for cover. Add a little psychological element to the game with a very small percent chance of actually hitting, but a big effect on forcing the opponent's next move. I would suggest 'overwatch' rules too so the 40k style maneuver of teleporting between terrain blocks every move becomes less viable and covering a fire lane becomes a more important consideration.

I'm thinking that helicopters...well, they're going to be kinda interesting to do. For the most part, helicopters are intended to be used in close support with infantry even at the squad/fireteam level. They perform a role that fixed wing aircraft can't. It'd be downright dumb to leave them out, but it's going to be a challenge to do helicopters justice simply because in 'real' combat, they'd be flying a patrol overhead excepting when they're lined up for a gun/rocket run. Even the AH-6 Kiowas, arguably the most vulnerable light helicopters, are a pretty common sight on the battlefield.

Now, fixed wing aircraft? Yeah. They probably won't be represented on the table.

I definitely agree with the Overwatch bit, alongside of Suppressive Fire. Suppressive Fire, however, will most likely be a niche filled by designated marksmen/sniper teams firing in conjunction with UAVs.

Gotta remember though Kan, the game mostly focuses on ground-based combat. That's not to say a module for aerial combat couldn't be done - I do want to make a system that's very flexible and easy to adapt. But nothing hampers a game's popularity and following like making it too complex. Factoring in choppers as a mostly "Offmap" unit will still make them present, but will simplify things by not needing to factor them in as an actual unit during combat. Plus, they'd need to keep moving to avoid taking fire. The map boundaries would probably be too small to represent a Gunship or Transport Helo's speed, maneuverability, and movement. Plus, if you get an opposing Helo on the map suddenly, you'd have to add rules for aerial combat to the base game. For new players, things like that might be daunting.

All in all, it's just asking too much out of one package (hehehe...)

For now, let's focus on what happens on the ground. We figure that out and we've got something to work with.

Air-to-air combat is a tricky one for a board game because it can't really do justice to the 3 dimensional altitude nature of combat. Perhaps if attack copters were able to just zoom in, spend a turn on the board while they do their attack run, allowing themself to be vulnerable for a moment, then taken off the board for the following turn, having to miss out a turn as they line up for their next attack run. Either that or stick around as targets as they hover around a bit for fire support for the infantry.

Fixed wing aircraft aren't necessarily out of the question as, because as I understand it from old Desert Storm footage of smartbombs, it's the infantry on the ground that have to get to a position where they can paint the target with guidance lasers in order for an air strike to happen, which itself is a scenario idea. sort of "stop the special ops guys before they get into position to line up the air strike on this facility" mission idea.

Meanwhile, a jet could be considered a force asset to do flyby attacks (especially against helicopters) but dealt with on an off-board result table maybe once per game, or if both teams have one, they can have a table for which achieves air superiority before the game begins.

Modern warfare is, as far as I can tell, if not involved a lot with guerilla warfare and information, a combined arms effort. Infantry is needed to occupy, tanks trump infantry, helicopters trump tanks, and jets trump helicopters. But with no airbase in the first place, no jets. (hence the existance of continued American support for Israel).

On the first night of desert storm a few U.S. planes blocked the entire Iraqi convoy heading out of Bagdad just by knocking out the vehicles in front, and then just going back and forth down the line blowing up everything else that was stuck in traffic. Wiped out a huge amount of Hussein's armored capability with just a couple of teams of planes tag-teaming back and forth to reload and do more runs. I think in the interest of 'realistic' scenarios air superiority would be a good idea to give a nod to, even if just a very minor contribution to what is otherwise mostly a small-unit ground combat scenario, with air support as something to worry about in the background, rather than as any kind of focal point.

Inclusion of fixed wing stuff also opens up options for using weapons like Stingers in small infantry squads as mission objectives too. Take out the SAM team or AA gun before the air strike can happen, as a mission objective, so the A-10 Cobra can come in and blow up the big scary tank that is holding up the infantry. It's like a very complicated version of Rock Paper Scissors.

Just some musings. I think this is a great idea guys, the whole project and brainstorming as a group is very refreshing.

Well guys, here's an example of what the game pieces will look like. Behold, the first Fireteam of a platoon of one of Canada's most well known, Edmonton's own PPCLI

Metalli, I'm still working on the story you wanted me to rewrite, and it's coming along pretty well.

But of the others I sent you (PMC's, Russian) what did you think? SHould I scrap them, rewrite them?

Also, how big are those figs in relation to 40K?

nice figs. Just curious if you considered going down to 15mm scale (tons of oldschool fig companies do 15mm)? If you are going to be going company level scenarios it would certainly be cheaper, or HO scale like airfix figures used to be? (even cheaper if you can use midget plastic army men and tanks bought at a local toy store for a buck)


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Also HO scale is where model train buildings and matchbox cars fit. Nice cheap buildings, urban settings, trees. The model train track was my first wargame table as a little kid and it worked just fine for our little airfix soldiers (picture a couple of 7 year olds pitting Gurkhas against Napoleon and making up their own rules as they go)

It's a skirmish game. Units don't have to be crazy affordable because you won't be buying many of them. Larger battles will be something we'll be thinking about, but the core game will need to be finalized before tossing in anything like that. After all, if the Skirmish scale game doesn't play out quick and easy, then what hope would we have of a larger scale game working out?

And they're about twice the size of a GW mini. I would say pretty close to the height of the old Inq. 58mm figs

Guys, give me something to write please! I have 3 weeks to not do anything before I go back to school that I need to kill somehow.
I'm getting rather excited about this...

Also, as a general note to dakkites, we need to work on the core game before thinking arial combat, lager combats, etc. Minis are going to be roughly twice the size of warhammer minis (about 58 to 64mm). Just what I picked up from reading the thread.

And on the aircraft debate, I think that a system where it arrives for a turn, can fire, then at the end of the opponents turn it leaves. Or it stays off board and is used as an ability (like 40k apocalypse strategic assets)

Oops, contradicted myself there...

Just my thoughts, trying to help

Hmmm... something to write for thee? Well, we could start with a list of potential scenarios with storylines for matchups.

For instance, the local Texas state militia boys have decided to take it upon themselves to liberate a national guard armory of its motor pool because they no longer trust the federal government to protect them. They get their best marksmen and most zealous members and stage a night raid on the local armory. The National Guard are for the most part weekend warriors stationed there, not the ones who actually get sent out and deployed, but the new guys who are still staying home on guard duty and mopping floors in the mean time. One force of a few dedicated and (kind of, in their own way) organized raiders versus a heavily stocked facility with a lot of defensive boundaries guarded by somewhat unmotivated and inexperienced sentries. Game ends when the militia guys drive the last truck/stryker/ etc in the motor pool off the table, or when they are all killed or run away trying.

Make up a scenario. The rules will mesh themselves once our fearless leaders give us a starting point I'm sure we will be able to hash them out bit by bit. But still... write a scenario idea! It's fun. It'll pass your 3 weeks easy depending on how detailed you want it to be. Mine was a fairly simple concept with just 2 victory conditions off the top of my head, but you could get more and more complicated as you like. That's the beauty of this kind of thing.


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On the militia side...

"chief" the local militia boss, veteran stats, nice gun
9 other various hunter types, street punk anarchists, marksmenship enthuiasts, with less nice guns but still good practice, good marksmanship, and good determination... all communicating via walkie talkie.

On the National Guard Armory side: spotlights, barbed wire, 30 excellently equipped and body armored but green as hell soldiers completely unaware of the surprise attack, with an incompetent desk jockey commander.

The prize: a Stryker, HWMVEE, and a deuce and a half truck as well as all the fuel and ammo that can be loaded on it. (which is stored next to the motor pool in a side building... making for a little side mission, because the vehicles in the armory are probably not fueled up as they were all being worked on and just sitting there)...

meh justa thought.

I'd love to do some crappy sketches for this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/309373.page

Examples

The first edition of the game will be introducing the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Caucasus Theatres. Factions will be US, NATO, Russia, Middle Eastern Nations, and Extremists. Mock news reports and military documents about the events and conflicts in these areas are generally what we're looking for.

Still saying "The Last Tour" should be our title, Metalli

Hey guys, but of an update

Kanluwen managed to sucker me into naming it "The Last Tour". We'll go with it unless someone else has a title that make my head asplode.

Also, all the folks that contacted me about storywriting have yet to get back to me with drafts...

And I've painted (Read: Painted - Not based) one of my Canadians:





His boots might look a little malformed, but those are actually his kneepads covering his ankles. Personally, I would've preferred them to be up on his knees like the other two, but it adds personality I suppose.


And last but not least... This has no relevance -whatsoever-. But it is funny.

I was drinking Mickey's with a buddy of mine, and we were solving the riddles under the cap. Well, on his 4th or 5th bottle, he pulls this one up:



Epic. Plain and simple

metallifan wrote:Also, all the folks that contacted me about storywriting have yet to get back to me with drafts...

I'm working on the revised draft right now. SHould be done with it in about an hour and a half at most. (Still not final draft though)

Good stuff, looking forward to it

You should have the first piece of revised fluff now. I won't be able to write for a while since i have to show the Empress how to upload photos.
Again.

Here's a fake news report. I could write a scenario for it once you have your rules set.

NATO Troops Land in Somalia

NP- National Press

Kismaayo, Somalia- What many see as an open declaration of war on the ruling Islamic Council of a Free Somalia (ICFS) and an expansion of existing hostilities with the Coalition of Islamic States (CIS), NATO Special Forces (NSF) made a pre-dawn landing near Somalia’s third largest city and the largest southern city in the country.

Initial reports are sketchy at best but it appears that the small, elite force landed on the outskirts of the city in the early morning hours and then commenced an operation of some sort. Residents were awakened to the sounds of explosions and automatic weapons fire as NSF troops were discovered. It is immediately unclear if their mission was successful or not.

“Kismaayo has been an extremist stronghold since Al-Shabaab took control in 2009.” stated a NATO official under conditions of anonymity. “The world cannot allow the CIS unchecked expansion, it would be extremely debilitating to NATO allies in the region.”

The CIS could not be reached for comment; however, an Al-Shabaab spokesman had this to say; “The infidel has struck at our heart and this cannot be tolerated. We will tear them out, root and branch so that the glory of Allah may wither them in holy fire.”

Really liked it agnosto. Very smooth and fluent writing. More from you would be great

And I read the extended version you sent me GES. Great work bulking up your initial report. It really added a lot more depth to it

Fantastic Agnosto.

Someone get that man e-Cookies. He deserves them.

Aww shucks guys, I just threw that together in 5 minutes with the help of google maps.

Google...maps?

What is this witchery you speak of?! Heretic!

As an update, you may be getting to see something freaking amazing next year from my workshop.

AFV Club Taiwan is making a 1/35 scale AC-130 'Spectre' gunship.

Oh yes. That's maniac shenanigans for you.

I'd love to help with this, I liek Russians, and actually have access to a Russian paratrooper 5 nights a week, but I'll work on whatever is needed. Just PM me with what you need and I'll start banging stuff out right away, I have lots of free time atm. I just can't draw...