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Elmodiddly wrote:

Slipstream wrote:We care about the hobby, even if GW don't listen to us; that is why opinions are so divided.

THAT answers everything! The fact that no-one listens to YOU is a very narrowminded viewpoint.

Why should they listen to you [the gamer] and do exactly what you say?

They research and base their decisions on hundreds of customers comments, playtest hundreds of hours and scenarios, design what they can within the rules to give the majority what they want and what GW, in their huge experience of gaming and buiness, can give which gives them the best return.

Just because they don't do what you want, when you want it, does that mean that GW are not listening?

Man you are fuuuuuny monkey!
you make me laugh AHAHAHA!

For some one saying chill and get on with it you are rather assertive with your opinings.
In response to your patronising comments about Necrons et al:
Why should people not complain having waited years, note that, YEARS, for their codex to get updated to work with a newer rulebooks, while seeing spacemarine chapter after chapter get revamped and ever more overpowered in comparison.
Which sort of suggests that GW don't give a monkey's ... (no offence)

and hope one of you is not a rules lawyer

In the 3-4 years I have invested in the hobby, I still to this day do not understand what the hell a "rules lawyer" is supposed to be. Are there really people out there who think that insisting that people play by the rules is a bad thing?

Nope
but sitting down to wiggle and worm out of the loopholes ...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
For some one saying chill and get on with it you are rather assertive with your opinings.
In response to your patronising comments about Necrons et al:
Why should people not complain having waited years, note that, YEARS, for their codex to get updated to work with a newer rulebooks, while seeing spacemarine chapter after chapter get revamped and ever more overpowered in comparison.
Which sort of suggests that GW don't give a monkey's ... (no offence)

Patronising comments? Huh. And here was me thinking that people played nice here. It's not about being assertive, or patronising, it's trying to see the whole picture instead of "I want" "What about me!" "It's not fair!"

Waiting years? Maybe, but putting that into context GW has 14 40K armies. 15 Fantasy. Several LOTR and the other smaller things like Neromunda, which they still support.

OK, not for the smaller games but you have 40 Codexes or so to consider and cater for from all 3 of the major selling ranges. Business sense is to update the most popular, playtest endlessley and then a protracted marketing strategy to get it on the shelves. Which can take quite a long time for one codex. The lesser supported races, by sales, would be lower on the scale of things.

If they didn't give a monkey's they wouldn't be doing any of this, they would send it out for you to buy then leave it for years to dump the whole system and start another.

I understand the nausea, I am waiting with baited breath for the Necron update myself, but I understand that it's not quick and it's not easy.

Laughing Man wrote:

My fish is da win, bwarrrr!!! I crush you!!

LIES! Your fish smells of scale polish and shame! Have at you!

Pistols at 12 paces, you scalawag!

Poor GW can't organise their codex upgrades properly
Bless!

Re GW Monkey's: You mean GW would let you buy antiquated minis and codices for yonks right upto the point of relaunch when the minis they sold you last week are now obsolete.

I understand peoples' nausea even though the problems don't affect me. The whole point was that there are legitimate complaints made on the forum that are being confused with making a drama. It is unfair to chastise people for getting fed up with the constant expectation of their codex being taken off the back burner and put in cold storage.

That in my book is not playing fair.

Reecius wrote:@MeanGreenStompa

Dude, death threats over tropical fish? Holy Crap! People are so strange! Hahaha, that kills me.

My fish is da win, bwarrrr!!! I crush you!!

Yep, there was an almost geographical divide over hybrids and genetic altering.
In the US, it's mostly 'what you want to keep, within reason, that's your right', in Europe it's 'don't be playing God with species, we need to conserve' and in the Far East 'make fish with big head for fortune that glows in the dark using jellyfish DNA and then release them when you're bored' is all the rage (see blood red parrot fish, glow in the dark danios, flowerhorns etc).

Passions ran very high and on a couple of times the Far East guys, keeping expensive hybrid or altered fish, would take offence at their methods and ethics being challenged and issued personal messages with highly graphic death threats. It's very big business in Singapore and Thailand and China. We had flames aplenty over fish, I imagine it's going on about all things ever debated on the internet.

Yeah, I suppose so. Silly internet. People will get huffy and puffy about anything.

I'm surprised nobody pointed out "The Great Internet F wad Theory": http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

This particular strip is so, so true. In my local store, I have yet to see any drama or "GW is evil" or whatever.

Of course, we all need to remember that while GW is an awesome company that made the coolest toy soldiers in the world, they are still a business, and whose goal is always to make money. Remember that, and it's cool, cuz if no money was made, they'd go out of business and Warhammer would die. Also, table-top wargaming is a niche market, and in order to be a successful business they need high prices to get around the low consumer base.

At least, that's concerning the cost-issues, balance-wise, I dunno, but in my FLGS, we all try to avoid being full of , and WAAC people are frowned upon.

Patronising comments? Huh. And here was me thinking that people played nice here. It's not about being assertive, or patronising, it's trying to see the whole picture instead of "I want" "What about me!" "It's not fair!"

On reflection you are quite right, old thing, and I apologise.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Patronising comments? Huh. And here was me thinking that people played nice here. It's not about being assertive, or patronising, it's trying to see the whole picture instead of "I want" "What about me!" "It's not fair!"

On reflection you are quite right, old thing, and I apologise.

WOW that is actually the first time ever i see someone apologise on an online forum.... kudos to you sir!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Patronising comments? Huh. And here was me thinking that people played nice here. It's not about being assertive, or patronising, it's trying to see the whole picture instead of "I want" "What about me!" "It's not fair!"

On reflection you are quite right, old thing, and I apologise.

It's not needed as I wasn't abused, like people would be on some other forums for having a different opinion, but thank you.

Every company would let you buy their stuff up until the new stuff came out. That is business, but they do tell people a few months ahead of a major release, with gameplay articles, painting, modding the new stuff etc so that people can organise whatever they need to do in order to buy the new stuff, if they wanted it.

Sidstyler wrote:In the 3-4 years I have invested in the hobby, I still to this day do not understand what the hell a "rules lawyer" is supposed to be. Are there really people out there who think that insisting that people play by the rules is a bad thing?

Really? It isn't that complicated - if you approach the rules in a consistant manner, considering each rules dispute with the same approach and a focus on what the most sensible outcome might be, and not just what's best for your army then you're likely cool, whether you argue for RAW, RAI or some hybrid thereof. But if you scour the rules for any and all misunderstandings and try to use each for your own benefit, then you're likely a rules lawyer.

For instance, there was a guy who dropped onto a range of sites to complain about how he was mistreated in a game because a strategem only stopped being useful on a 4. It was clear to everyone else there this was meant to be a 4+ but this guy argued otherwise, and wouldn't stop.

Ah, I see then. So that would be the guy who turns his models around and moves them backwards in the movement phase to avoid the affects of Rage.

Elmodiddly wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
For some one saying chill and get on with it you are rather assertive with your opinings.
In response to your patronising comments about Necrons et al:
Why should people not complain having waited years, note that, YEARS, for their codex to get updated to work with a newer rulebooks, while seeing spacemarine chapter after chapter get revamped and ever more overpowered in comparison.
Which sort of suggests that GW don't give a monkey's ... (no offence)

Patronising comments? Huh. And here was me thinking that people played nice here. It's not about being assertive, or patronising, it's trying to see the whole picture instead of "I want" "What about me!" "It's not fair!"

Waiting years? Maybe, but putting that into context GW has 14 40K armies. 15 Fantasy. Several LOTR and the other smaller things like Neromunda, which they still support.

OK, not for the smaller games but you have 40 Codexes or so to consider and cater for from all 3 of the major selling ranges. Business sense is to update the most popular, playtest endlessley and then a protracted marketing strategy to get it on the shelves. Which can take quite a long time for one codex. The lesser supported races, by sales, would be lower on the scale of things.

If they didn't give a monkey's they wouldn't be doing any of this, they would send it out for you to buy then leave it for years to dump the whole system and start another.

I understand the nausea, I am waiting with baited breath for the Necron update myself, but I understand that it's not quick and it's not easy.

Sir, I disagree with your principle, as I believe the consumer is ultimately where the buck must stop. Ever heard the the phrases, 'the customer is always right', or 'for there to be supply, there must first be demand'? Stating our viewpoints of what we think is wrong with the hobby, or disagreeing with the supposed 'business sense' GW displays is quite our right, as the ones who give them that money to do business-type things with in the first place. And ultimately, the consumer's concern will always revolve around themselves, as opposed to a businesman in an office in Nottingham.

I know for a fact my priority here is playing with a gaming system, and obtaining models I personally enjoy. Yours may be to look at 'the big picture' and send all of your earnings with a thank you note to Tom Kirby, but that's your choice. The mone thing I do know about business, is that someone talking about the 'wider view', the 'big picture', or 'sound business sense', is usually trying to sell you something, and distract you from something else.


And the best thing is, you won't be able to change my mind now or disagree with me, without causing drama in a thread about internet drama, thus creating delicious poetic irony.

Ketara wrote:'the customer is always right'

This is a horrible lie. If customers all got what they wanted every company would go out of business tomorrow.

sebster wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:In the 3-4 years I have invested in the hobby, I still to this day do not understand what the hell a "rules lawyer" is supposed to be. Are there really people out there who think that insisting that people play by the rules is a bad thing?

Really? It isn't that complicated - if you approach the rules in a consistant manner, considering each rules dispute with the same approach and a focus on what the most sensible outcome might be, and not just what's best for your army then you're likely cool, whether you argue for RAW, RAI or some hybrid thereof. But if you scour the rules for any and all misunderstandings and try to use each for your own benefit, then you're likely a rules lawyer.

For instance, there was a guy who dropped onto a range of sites to complain about how he was mistreated in a game because a strategem only stopped being useful on a 4. It was clear to everyone else there this was meant to be a 4+ but this guy argued otherwise, and wouldn't stop.

I thing that definition makes a lot of sense. In practice though, I could easily see someone who lost accusing their opponent of being a Rules Lawyer just becasue they were corrected on a rules mistake. As a result of this worry, I always get nervous when I notice something my opponent is doing wrong and point it out.

Lorek wrote:Drama is VERY easy to avoid if you don't want to be involved. Just don't respond, or respond calmly and succinctly, only saying your piece once, and leaving it at that.

A dose of humility helps too.

I hereby nominate Lorek for benevolent dictator of the internet. May he rule with an iron fist. You know, of justice and being generally rather nice.

If the drama seems overwhelming, just take a step back, repeat the phrase "It's only the internet," and imagine a room full of gamers - painting, playing, having a few laughs, and the like - actually enjoying the hobby, like so many of us do.

Ever heard the the phrases, 'the customer is always right'

\

If I could build a time machine and only alter one thing in history, it would be to find whoever dreamed up this utopian impossibility and kick him in the nuts and tell him all the harm he has caused humanity. Spend a few years in retail/restaurant/service industry and you'll feel the same way. "The customer is always right" mantra is like communism, it looks good on paper, but basic human greed/ignorance/stupidity ruins it. A customer is entitled to respect and a fair shake, nothing else, if thats not enough, make your own business and see how long it lasts or how quick you change your tune.

Back to the topic of this thread, in all my 16+ years in this hobby I can honestly say I have seen nowhere near the amount of drama that I've seen in MMO's alone(looking at you every WoW guild that falls apart). Wargaming is downright civilized compared to most other social hobbies. Its only when someone has the safety of anonymity(interwebz) that wargaming becomes drama prone, and I'd say half of that is just trolling.