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Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
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Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


As was IG then?
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Kevin949 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


As was IG then?
IG had two 3rd ed codexes.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!)
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


As was IG then?
IG had two 3rd ed codexes.


Hm, just like crons.
Damn, didn't know they were two editions back. *Ugh*
   
Made in hr
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Zagreb

Crons have 3rd edition dex

EDIT: lol, didn't see next page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is so hard to play with an old dex... GW should really think about that things... Ok, 4th edition codex on few armies, but 2 editions running late?! That just makes me mad

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/16 21:29:01


(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny
(")_(") to help him gain world domination. 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong. WBB states anytime you would be removed as a casualty, actually. Which is why it works vs Lukas stupid Rule.



People use Lukas?

WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

In the Necron Codex, the Monolith has a rule which says it can move and use the power matrix.

One way the power matrix can be used is as a particle whip. The other is to teleport Necron units.

The particle whip is a weapon.

A vehicle (except fast & skimmers) which moves at cruising speed cannot fire any weapons unless a specific codex entry (like space marine power of the machine spirit) allows it.

A monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed.

When 5th edition rules came out, errata were issued for each codex.

If the monolith was going to be allowed to deep strike and fire any weapon (the gauss flux arc or the power matrix) the errata issued by GW would have stated as much.

There is no such specific exemption in the Necron errata.

Therefore a Monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed and cannot fire any of its weapons.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in hr
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Zagreb

Trust me, the lack of rule in GW errata has nothing to do with what they intended
But I agree...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/16 21:37:25


(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny
(")_(") to help him gain world domination. 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

snakel wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chinchilla wrote:Problem is that if you observe this with pure logic, it is impossible to say which rule is more specific:
1. Monolith can move and use power matrix
2. Vehicle can't move at cruising speed and fire weapon

First sentence is more specific when addressing vehicle as monolith....
Second one is more specific when addressing speed....

So which one is more specific? Neither imo... And here lies the problem



Well said that man the exaxt point i was trying to make


You can drive in cars.
You can drive in cars, but you cannot drive in red cars.

Which one is more specific?

You can shoot (while moving).
You can shoot (while moving), but cannot shoot at cruising speed.

Which one is more specific?

Edit: To eliminate the guesswork - the second one is more specific, in both cases. I'd imagine that everyone agrees with that. Now, the codex says the monolith may fire its particle whip, even if it moved. That's great. It can move 1" and fire it. It can move 5" and fire it. It can even move 6" and fire it! However, when deep striking, it counts as moving at cruising speed. Now, there is a very specific rule about moving at cruising speed and firing weapons in the BRB. We all know it. The rule in the codex gives the monolith permission to move and fire, not move at cruising speed and fire.

As Gwar! might put it:

How many rules does moving at cruising speed and firing break? 1.

How many rules does moving at cruising speed and not firing break? 0.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/16 21:41:56


WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.

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Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







You clearly are not an ork.

Everyone knows da red wonz go fasta!

(and it's the 2nd one )

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!)
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

time wizard wrote:In the Necron Codex, the Monolith has a rule which says it can move and use the power matrix.

One way the power matrix can be used is as a particle whip. The other is to teleport Necron units.

The particle whip is a weapon.

A vehicle (except fast & skimmers) which moves at cruising speed cannot fire any weapons unless a specific codex entry (like space marine power of the machine spirit) allows it.

A monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed.

When 5th edition rules came out, errata were issued for each codex.

If the monolith was going to be allowed to deep strike and fire any weapon (the gauss flux arc or the power matrix) the errata issued by GW would have stated as much.

There is no such specific exemption in the Necron errata.

Therefore a Monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed and cannot fire any of its weapons.


But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification

In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




snakel wrote:

But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification

In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?



If you can't assume that the rules are complete and correct, what can you assume?

In regards to landraiders:
Joey wrote:
... that unit of badass assault troops which could all be wiped out by a single ordinance template is instead nuts deep in the enemy bowels and is pumping firey vengeance into their enemy's gunline.
 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

snakel wrote: But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification


I would never presume to know what GW thinks. My point was that the opportunity existed to ammend the rule in a fashion similar to space amrine POTMS. There is currently no rule which specifically allows the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon.

snakel wrote:In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?


It matters not to me how you play. For the purposes of a rules forum, there is no specific rule allowing the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon. I play against a necron player who does not think that a monolith can deep strike and fire any weapon.

You can either play by the existing rules or make up anything you wish. Doesn't change what is printed in the codex or rulebook though.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

time wizard wrote:
snakel wrote: But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification


I would never presume to know what GW thinks. My point was that the opportunity existed to ammend the rule in a fashion similar to space amrine POTMS. There is currently no rule which specifically allows the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon.

snakel wrote:In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?


It matters not to me how you play. For the purposes of a rules forum, there is no specific rule allowing the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon. I play against a necron player who does not think that a monolith can deep strike and fire any weapon.

You can either play by the existing rules or make up anything you wish. Doesn't change what is printed in the codex or rulebook though.



nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


by your rule you cant use the power matix at all lol if you deepstrke .

The power matix is not a weapon therfore it cant be subject to weapon rules it is infact a power matirx the particlewhip is just the release of energy stored in the matrix

LOL its not a clear rulling and you cant say i am making up rules i just have a different take on the english language than you

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/16 22:07:50


 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently

 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




snakel wrote:

I come from England where we speak English you come from the USA where you speak a version of English but not the the same as the Queen's English.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways pronunciation, meanings of certain words and meanings of certain sentences ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both understand the rule differently


Yeah. . . I can't see how you can, with a straight face, question kirsanth on his grasp of English.

 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




snakel wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


You can't hide behind a language defense if you can't prove that a word means something different in the queen's english than it does in american english.

In regards to landraiders:
Joey wrote:
... that unit of badass assault troops which could all be wiped out by a single ordinance template is instead nuts deep in the enemy bowels and is pumping firey vengeance into their enemy's gunline.
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

Rephistorch wrote:
snakel wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


You can't hide behind a language defense if you can't prove that a word means something different in the queen's english than it does in american english.



it specificaly states the lith can move and use its power matirx (genral wording for a specific rule )

the BRB states vehicles unless otherwse stated in there codex cant move at crusing speed and shoot (specific wording for a general rule )

There you go

 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

LOL

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

awww lookit the kitty

DQ:80+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k10#+D++A++/areWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




snakel wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:
snakel wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


You can't hide behind a language defense if you can't prove that a word means something different in the queen's english than it does in american english.



it specificaly states the lith can move and use its power matirx (genral wording for a specific rule )

the BRB states vehicles unless otherwse stated in there codex cant move at crusing speed and shoot (specific wording for a general rule )

There you go


You didn't prove that any of those words mean something different in american english than they do in the queen's english.

The parts of the rules for shooting while moving are more specific in the case of cruising speed than they are in the case of the monolith. Therefore the rules regarding cruising speed are the ones that take precedence. I play necrons btw.

In regards to landraiders:
Joey wrote:
... that unit of badass assault troops which could all be wiped out by a single ordinance template is instead nuts deep in the enemy bowels and is pumping firey vengeance into their enemy's gunline.
 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

snakel wrote:


it specificaly states the lith can move and use its power matirx (genral wording for a specific rule )

the BRB states vehicles unless otherwse stated in there codex cant move at crusing speed and shoot (specific wording for a general rule )

There you go


In the words of the Dread Pirate Roberts, "Truly you have a dizzying intellect."

WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.

DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+

28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

I proved the the word move means move ie fast slow it means move however you want to look at it

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move

the fact is there to see

crusing speed is moving no matter what spin you put on it

BRB rule General

lith rule specific

Specific rule beats specific wording in gereral rule

that is simple English

Thanks for the fun argument but i doubt we will ever agree unless its to agree we disagree

 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

snakel wrote:the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move
Why do you assert this?

editing to add:
I am refering to the (now) bolded part.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/16 23:06:34


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




snakel wrote:I proved the the word move means move ie fast slow it means move however you want to look at it

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move

the fact is there to see

crusing speed is moving no matter what spin you put on it

BRB rule General

lith rule specific

Specific rule beats specific wording in gereral rule

that is simple English

Thanks for the fun argument but i doubt we will ever agree unless its to agree we disagree


BRB rule for shooting at cruising speed is specific to the speed of the vehicle. The monolith rule is not. Therefore you use the rule that is more specific to moving at that speed, which is the BRB.

Edit: I'll break it down solely to moving and shooting.

Monolith rules: The monolith may move (no speed mentioned) and use it's power matrix as a weapon.
Vehicle rules: A vehicle moving at cruising speed (12") may not shoot it's weapons.

The vehicle rules are more specific to the current situation (the monolith moving at cruising speed) than the monolith rules are. Therefore, the vehicle rules take precedence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/16 23:14:01


In regards to landraiders:
Joey wrote:
... that unit of badass assault troops which could all be wiped out by a single ordinance template is instead nuts deep in the enemy bowels and is pumping firey vengeance into their enemy's gunline.
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine



england

Ok different angle the lith can only ever move 6"

crusing speed means 6" + so by your arguments the lith can not Deepstrike since its codex specifialy states it cant move more than 6"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/16 23:11:34


 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

snakel wrote:Ok different angle the lith can only ever move 6"

crusing speed means 6" + so by your arguments the lith can not Deepstrike since its codex specifialy states it cant move moe than 6"
DS counts as moving cruising speed.

Note:
It even mentions that immobile units can DS--in fact they may be required to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/16 23:12:56


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

snakel wrote:I proved the the word move means move ie fast slow it means move however you want to look at it


So I can move my Leman Russ 24" AND STILL SHOOT? No, I don't think so.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
 
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