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Scratch that...full reverse.

snakel wrote:

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move

This is where you assume, when you're not given permission to assume. You know what they say about assumption?

snakel wrote:

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move

the lith rule is specific to the lith, but it is not specific to the type of movement that the lith is performing. The vehicle rules are more specific to the type of movement that is occurring.

That's what specific > general means. It's whatever rule is more specific in a given situation. Not what's more specific to the unit.

Example: When a vehicle suffers a weapon destroyed result, the weapon is removed and unusable. When a lith suffers a weapon destroyed result, it instead gets -1 to the number of attacks it can make with it's gauss weapon. Therefore the more specific rule about weapon destroyed results take effect.

Example 2: When a monolith moves, it can shoot. When a vehicle moves at cruising speed, it can not shoot. The more specific rule (with the more specific qualifier about moving and shooting) takes precedence. (hint: it's the vehicle movement rule that has a more specific qualifier.)

The monolith can only ever move 6" thats specific and its in the codex

so then with the 5th ed saying that deepstrike =crusing speed, that means by how you read rules that the specifc rule in the necron codex means it cannot Deepstrike

The lith rule does not say it can fire and move but it can use the power matrix even if it moves since by the specific rule in the codex it can only ever move 6" then that would superceed the BRB and say it only moves 6" no matter what ?

So using the english language you can use the matirx if you move but using your take on the english lanuage you cant use it if you deepstike so i cant teleport units or shoot nor can i deepstike since i cant move at Crusing speed .

No matter how you spin it you are taking the lith rule and trying to break it down into two diffrent meanings when it is only one therfore you are bendng the rules of the game and the english Lannguge to say it cant fire but can teleport and also it can move at Crusingspeed even though it cant .

So please make your minds up either it can use the powermatrix when it moves and deepstrikes in both ways it can be used or it cant use it at all nor can it deepstrike

? You can use the powermatix when you DS, just like the rule says, to teleport units. But not to shoot as we have another rules saying we can't that doesn't interact with the permission to use the power matrix (not explicit permission to use the particle whi[).

The lith rule does not say you can use the power matrix as a weapon even if you move just that you can use the power matrix

You are saying you can use the power matrix if you deepstrike to Teleport but not as a weapon the lith rule does not distinguish between shooting and teleport only that it can be used

Your arguments are the BRB is more specific so agian you cant by your reading for the rule deepstrike the lith

The specific rule in the codex states you can only move 6" ,the specific rule in the BRB says deepstriking = crusing sepeed , crusing speed = 6"+ the lith cant by its own specific wording move more than 6"

So to put it simply the lith cannot Deepstrike since it contaradicts the Specific BRB that says Deepstrike = crusing speed which the lith rule specificaly states its cant do

So agian make your minds up stop taking part of a rule and using it to make your argument right Either it cant Deepstike or it can ,and if it can which contardicts the BRB rule and its own rule for moving then it can fire the whip which is just part of the matirx which it can use if it moves

The issue here is the reading and understanding of english is totaly different person to person and also that you are veiwing the matirx as both teleporter and weapon when it is not it is just a power matirx

So if i move more than the specific lith rules says i can ,i am breaking the rules and if i fire the matirx as a whip i am in you view breaking the rules but i can use it as a teleporter which is where you are forgetting its a powermatrix not a weapon and is just engergy used to telport or released as a attack it only has weapon stats since in game you need to know how powerful it is .


So if you are right then the lith cant Deep strike so the issue of if it can use the matirx in whatever matter you choose is mute


This argument is the exact reason why GW should never make new rules unless the codexs all get updated at the same time to fall in line with said rules

In the end no matter what you say we are both right Since GW in the infinate wisdom see fit to make codexs with one set of rules then change the rules totaly yet fail to update the codexs to the same rule set

In regards to the 'lith being unable to move more than 6 inches, dont forget if a model has a special rule that would prevent it from moving on from reserve, then the special rule is ignored.

IE, if moving a monolith on from reserve, since the monolith is larger than 6 inches, you ignore the rule saying you can only ever move 6 inches. Thus, the monolith can move up to 12 inches when moving on the board edge from reserve.

Changing rules to fit certain situtations hence why GW need there head bashing ,their english and even they cant grasp the simplistic of issues .

You cant say this is the rule and thats that ,but oh BTW you can change it if A=C and not B

GW have not made it clear nor have they botherd to address the issue so this is a mute argument since no one is right and no one is wrong

Snakel - it COUNTS AS moving cruising speed, it hasnt actually moved crusiing speed. So it can deepstrike just fine.

Secondly the more specific situation is that "moving" does not ever, ever, ever, state that you can still fire at cruising speed. The BRB rule is, for a change, STILL the more specific rule, so it applies.

It does have an answer, so is not a moot point.

DevianID wrote:In regards to the 'lith being unable to move more than 6 inches, dont forget if a model has a special rule that would prevent it from moving on from reserve, then the special rule is ignored.

IE, if moving a monolith on from reserve, since the monolith is larger than 6 inches, you ignore the rule saying you can only ever move 6 inches. Thus, the monolith can move up to 12 inches when moving on the board edge from reserve.

Ah, sorry but no, it can't. THe Monolith can only move 6". There's a whole other 14 page thread on whether or not a model must move "fully on" the table. Bottom line is that the Moolith may only move 6" per turn. When it moves on from reserve, this is usually sufficient to get the Monolith on.

@Snakel - As nosferatu1001 said, when the Monolith deep strikes, like any other vehicle, it counts as moving at cruising speed. This rule was not present in previous versions. So now any vehicle that deep strkies cannot fire weapons (unless fast or a skimmer). It used to be that land speeders could deep strike and fire all their weapons, now they can only fire one weapon. That's the new rules.

Also, you need to take another look at the Necron Codex. The Monolith entry says the Monolith may use the power matrix when it moves. It then gives the 2 ways the power matrix can be used. One way is as the particle whip, which is a weapon, and the other way is to teleport a unit of warriors in from reserve or to teleport a unit of Necrons from the tabletop.

Nowhere does it say the Monolith may move and fire any weapons at all, so you have to look at the BRB for those permissions, and as has been cited ad naseum, vehicles (except fast and skimmer) that move at cruising speed may not fire any weapons unless a rules specifically gives permission. And deep striking vehicles count as moving at cruising speed.

nosferatu1001, and time wizard make good points.

snakel wrote:Changing rules to fit certain situtations hence why GW need there head bashing ,their english and even they cant grasp the simplistic of issues .

You cant say this is the rule and thats that ,but oh BTW you can change it if A=C and not B

GW have not made it clear nor have they botherd to address the issue so this is a mute argument since no one is right and no one is wrong

Well now, GW bashing is certainly not productive to this discussion.

Yes, you can say this is the rule, but BTW, there are certain circumstances in which this rule is modified. That's how rules work. You can move and shoot. You, however, can not move more than 6" and shoot. The monolith does not ACTUALLY move more than 6", but when it deepstrikes it counts as moving at cruising speed.

Or to put it in your way if A=B (if vehicle is moving) it can shoot.
However, if A=C (vehicle is moving at cruising speed) it can NOT shoot.
I know you disagree with this principle, but that is exactly how rules systems work. There are more specific rules that govern general rules. While the monolith can normally move and shoot, it counts as moving at cruising speed when it deepstrikes. When moving at cruising speed, vehicles like the monolith (they're not fast, etc) can not shoot. Therefore, it can NOT shoot.

You haven't given a good, logical reason of why the monolith should be able to shoot at cruising speed. All you've said is, "But the monolith says I can move and shoot!" The specific overrides the general and you can not move and shoot at cruising speed. In order to come at the conclusion that the monolith can move and shoot at cruising speed, you have to point out a specific rule for the monolith that states it can move and shoot at cruising speed.

This is very, very clear in the rules. If you don't like the rule, that's alright. You can disagree with the changes GW has made in this edition. However, it is what the rules explicitly state in English, very clearly.

To reiterate: The only, and I mean ONLY way for you to prove your argument, is to show that the monolith has some special rule regarding movement at cruising speed. Not movement in general, but movement at cruising speed.

Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, don't say, "The monolith says it can move and shoot, therefore it can always move and shoot, even at cruising speed". Your premise is wrong. There are special rules that revolve around cruising speed, and they have to be taken into account. You should start with: "The monolith counts as moving at cruising speed while deepstriking (complete RaW). Vehicles moving at cruising speed can not fire their weapons (RaW, with some exclusions)." What you need to add are your arguments proving that the monolith has a special, more specific, rule that allows you to move at cruising speed.

Snakel, even IMMOBILE vehicles, ie things that can never move, can deepstrike and count as moving at Cruising speed. The Monolith's restriction to 6" is totolly irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Monolith rule gives it permission to fire when moving at Cruising speed. And since it does not do that, it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes. It's really that simple, and yet you have managed to drag it out for several pages. At least your post count is going up................

don_mondo wrote:Snakel, even IMMOBILE vehicles, ie things that can never move, can deepstrike and count as moving at Cruising speed. The Monolith's restriction to 6" is totolly irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Monolith rule gives it permission to fire when moving at Cruising speed. And since it does not do that, it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes. It's really that simple, and yet you have managed to drag it out for several pages. At least your post count is going up................

Bingo. It's the entire reason that drop pods cannot fire when they land. A drop pod is immobile. It moves 0". However, it moves 0" at cruising speed when it lands and so, therefore, may not fire.

puma713 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Snakel, even IMMOBILE vehicles, ie things that can never move, can deepstrike and count as moving at Cruising speed. The Monolith's restriction to 6" is totolly irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Monolith rule gives it permission to fire when moving at Cruising speed. And since it does not do that, it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes. It's really that simple, and yet you have managed to drag it out for several pages. At least your post count is going up................

Bingo. It's the entire reason that drop pods cannot fire when they land. A drop pod is immobile. It moves 0". However, it moves 0" at cruising speed when it lands and so, therefore, may not fire.

Last sentence should be;

However, it counts as moving at cruising speed when it lands and so, therefore, may not fire.

Ok the only reason i questioned the rule was because having just started using Necrons agian my current gaming gruop wanted to look at my codex so they could see what they could do .

After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .

They stated that the lith rule was and is a specific rule for the lith and nothing else ,making it more specific than anything in the BRB , the wording in the BRB is specific but only in asfar as the rule which itself is a general rule, which can be superceded by a specific rule in the codex .

Now if i and 50% of the people i talk to can see this then it means the rule is not clear ,if it was just me then i would bow to the general thought ,but it is not !!!!!

I will not accept this is not a clear rule (above example proves it is not )

i will accept that we are all right, as in the way you understand the meaning of specific clearly is why this issue is here .

i see specific as realting to a specific thing that is in no way confused for another where as ,your reading of specific is that a general rule worded specificaly is more specific than a specific rule worded generaly

It is clear to me that this makes the rule unclear since the meaning of unclear means it can be understood differently by different people.

So in closing i do not believe you are wrong but i do not belive i am wrong i believe that GW are wrong not to clarify this rule by either saying the power matrix can be used at any speed (to bring it in line with the current BRB )or saying the lith rule is no longer relivant since the speeds it was wirrten for have changed

No its not GW bashing its comen sence you change one rule in a game you have to change all rules that would contradict that change otherwise you cause confusion

snakel wrote:After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .

Then you are fine with your friends. Play it as you all agree. The thing to bear in mind though is that if you play others you should discuss it. If a tourney ask the TO, but assume it won't work to DS then shoot.

ymmv

kirsanth wrote:

snakel wrote:After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .

Then you are fine with your friends. Play it as you all agree. The thing to bear in mind though is that if you play others you should discuss it. If a tourney ask the TO, but assume it won't work to DS then shoot.

ymmv

Right. No matter how many of your friends think that it's wrong, it's not. I am the first one to tell you that there are multiple ways to read something and so, you can come to multiple conclusions. However this one is pretty cut and dry, I believe.

But as Kirsanth pointed out - so long as you're playing with your friends, then who cares. Play it like you want to play it. But I wouldn't expect to walk into a tournament, deep-strike a monolith and then shoot. And, if you are a tournament-goer, then just know that you probably won't be allowed to and expect that sort of ruling. Most people that play casually and at tournaments prefer to play one way and one way only, to get into a groove, work into a rhythm and really fine-tune their list. It can be difficult to really fine tune a list when you're working with two different rulesets from friendly play to competitive play, imo.

since i play for fun i wont ever be in a tourney

and i always ask peolple what they think about a rule i believe to be unclear

But thanks for the argument it was fun and also the fact it was conducted by all with decorum


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

snakel wrote:After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .

Then you are fine with your friends. Play it as you all agree. The thing to bear in mind though is that if you play others you should discuss it. If a tourney ask the TO, but assume it won't work to DS then shoot.

ymmv

Right. No matter how many of your friends think that it's wrong, it's not. I am the first one to tell you that there are multiple ways to read something and so, you can come to multiple conclusions. However this one is pretty cut and dry, I believe.

But as Kirsanth pointed out - so long as you're playing with your friends, then who cares. Play it like you want to play it. But I wouldn't expect to walk into a tournament, deep-strike a monolith and then shoot. And, if you are a tournament-goer, then just know that you probably won't be allowed to and expect that sort of ruling. Most people that play casually and at tournaments prefer to play one way and one way only, to get into a groove, work into a rhythm and really fine-tune their list. It can be difficult to really fine tune a list when you're working with two different rulesets from friendly play to competitive play, imo.

If it were cut and dried as you believe we would not be having this argument

snakel wrote:If it were cut and dried as you believe we would not be having this argument

In YMDC?! Pffft. Look at the "Difficult terrain....Destroys Vehicle?" thread.

No argument about a codex two versions old is going to be cut and dry.

Veldrain wrote:No argument about a codex two versions old is going to be cut and dry.

That's not the case when you interpret only RaW

Veldrain wrote:No argument about a codex two versions old is going to be cut and dry.

It is a cut and dried argument, people just dont like the answer and dont understand, despite beiong shown Sweeping Advance, that the rulebook can and often DOES override the codex