Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 00:42:32
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
|
That's actually an interesting question.
Do nation's with highly restrictive laws regarding sexuality have lower rates of STD infection?
The intuitive answer seems to be 'yes', but I'm left wondering how the relative degrees of regard for the female sex impacts the matter. And how medical standards correlate to the rate of STD infection.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 00:44:06
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 00:49:36
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Powerful Orc Big'Un
Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...
|
dogma wrote:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Human's can be compassionate and caring, and those humans who choose to be prmitive, bloodthirsty apes are a DISGRACE to all of humanity.
So from this I can infer that you have chosen to be compassionate and caring, and are completely above the use of force; even in the course of enforcing moral judgment.
Yes, I have. I have chosen to progress beyond primitive means of enforcing moral laws with force. I believe in the power of words, not actions.
BTW, did anyone know that it is legal for a husband to rape his wife every 3 days in Iran? Talk about anti-female...!
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 01:01:07
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
|
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:dogma wrote:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Human's can be compassionate and caring, and those humans who choose to be prmitive, bloodthirsty apes are a DISGRACE to all of humanity.
So from this I can infer that you have chosen to be compassionate and caring, and are completely above the use of force; even in the course of enforcing moral judgment.
Yes, I have. I have chosen to progress beyond primitive means of enforcing moral laws with force. I believe in the power of words, not actions.
BTW, did anyone know that it is legal for a husband to rape his wife every 3 days in Iran? Talk about anti-female...!
But is that worse than killing dolphins?
What is the point here? Is anyone honestly saying that Legal Rape is something that we should agree to disagree on?
|
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 01:09:57
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Powerful Orc Big'Un
Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...
|
Monster Rain wrote:Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:dogma wrote:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Human's can be compassionate and caring, and those humans who choose to be prmitive, bloodthirsty apes are a DISGRACE to all of humanity.
So from this I can infer that you have chosen to be compassionate and caring, and are completely above the use of force; even in the course of enforcing moral judgment.
Yes, I have. I have chosen to progress beyond primitive means of enforcing moral laws with force. I believe in the power of words, not actions.
BTW, did anyone know that it is legal for a husband to rape his wife every 3 days in Iran? Talk about anti-female...!
But is that worse than killing dolphins?
What is the point here? Is anyone honestly saying that Legal Rape is something that we should agree to disagree on?
Sadly enough, some people would disagree with us that legal rape is a bad thing.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 01:34:25
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
|
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Did I mention that the Iranian president has unveiled a new weapon that he calls his "ambassador of death"?
It is a shame that such an important part of our world has managed to become so screwed up by the 1,000 year old, woman hating, tribal religion that is Islam.
The islamic nations in the middle east were the leaders of science, learning, and tolerance for much of history. Particularly during the middle ages, it wasn't until the mid 1900's that the countries became extremely religious and extremist
|
H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, locationMagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 02:35:12
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
|
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Yes, I have. I have chosen to progress beyond primitive means of enforcing moral laws with force. I believe in the power of words, not actions.
So, if you were attacked, you wouldn't attempt to defend yourself?
If you believe that you have the right to defend yourself, and are willing to use force in order to so, then you are willing to enforce a moral judgment using force.
|
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 03:17:00
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
|
dogma wrote:Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Yes, I have. I have chosen to progress beyond primitive means of enforcing moral laws with force. I believe in the power of words, not actions.
So, if you were attacked, you wouldn't attempt to defend yourself?
If you believe that you have the right to defend yourself, and are willing to use force in order to so, then you are willing to enforce a moral judgment using force.
How are the two related? Self-Defense and Geopolitics seem to be two completely separate issues.
|
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 03:48:52
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
|
Absolutely, but I was under the impression that this had become a conversation about the use of force in the course of imposing moral standards. Like it or not, the Iranians are presently using force in order to punish a woman for legal transgressions that are based on moral judgments. I'm arguing that, if we take overt action against Iran, then we are doing the same categorical thing; though obviously one can, and I would, make the case that matters of degree must also be considered. However, if we are considering only matters of degree, then the fact that a given sort of punishment is violent or forceful does not intrinsically render it wrong.
Now, I don't think moral umbrage is sufficient to compel geopolitical action, but if it were, then the case for taking such an action must be more complicated than 'Punishment X is forceful/violent'.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 03:50:51
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 03:52:52
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
|
dogma wrote:Absolutely, but I was under the impression that this had become a conversation about the use of force in the course of imposing moral standards. Like it or not, the Iranians are presently using force in order to punish a woman for legal transgressions that are based on moral judgments. I'm arguing that, if we take overt action against Iran, then we are doing the same categorical thing; though obviously one can, and I would, make the case that matters of degree must also be considered. However, if we are considering only matters of degree, then the fact that a given sort of punishment is violent or forceful does not intrinsically render it wrong.
I think that the act itself should be considered as to whether or not force is required. The case of the woman being stoned to death: Adultery is not a violent act, so violence in redressing the act of adultery is completely uncalled for.
The act of stoning is a violent act, therefore I would say that violence would be justified to either redress or prevent it. Completely subjective, I grant you.
|
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 03:54:29
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Phryxis wrote:As far as AI goes, they're a generally positive organization, but they're a lot like PETA. Excessive and at times disingenuous. Their intolerance for injustice, real or imaginary, has made them zealots who can't entirely be counted on for objective reviews of reality. Not that that changes the fact that some people have been falsely sent to death row, and PROBABLY some even executed. It also doesn't change the fact that no proof has ever been made of an unjust execution.
Until this point I'd never heard of zealotry against injustice being described as a bad thing.
I don't entirely agree with Blackstone's notion that it's better to let ten guilty men free than to execute one innocent. It's my feeling that if one of those guilty men kills an innocent, you've just broken even, and if two of them do, you're behind the curve.
Furthermore, in a lot of the cases that wrongful execution is presumed to have ocurred, the person executed was was hardly an angel.
I've seen arguments made that show the recidivism rate in people accused of murder, and show that if these people would simply be executed, even if a percentage were innocent, it would end up saving innocent lives.
You've made the assumption that we can choose either to execute a person, or release them into the general population after a jail sentence. You're ignoring the option to put a person in maximum security for the rest of his life. We can lock people away with no chance or escape and no chance of ever harming anyone again.
Honestly, though, the number of people being executed in this country is so vanishingly small relative to the number of people and number of crimes, that it's really a non-issue. People argue about it at great length, but it has almost no real relevance to anyone's actual life. In 34 years we've executed about 1200 people. That's 35 a year, from a population in excess of 300 million. It's really an academic discussion.
Not if you consider the ability of the state to kill a person under it's complete control to be very important, regardless of the number. You are right that in terms of sheer scale it isn't that great, so why feel the need to give the state that power at all? Automatically Appended Next Post: WarOne wrote:Gross OVERsimplication does a good job of illustrating the problem with the situation.
I don't think so. I think it allows people to
A petition will not stop the death of this woman, as the context of a petition is for democratic and capitalist societies with greater transparency than Iran has. Such a petition will do little to sway the hearts of the Iranians in charge of the fate of the stoning.
No... did I say petitions were the best response? The best and perhaps only lasting solution is to open the doors to Iranians meeting our culture. Study over here, and return home with a head full of Western ideas. It's what's been happening for a couple of generations, it's why the government had to clamp down so hard in the wake of the election, it's why they had to cheat in the election.
Israel on the other hand is more than willing to initiate a war if it feels that there is a tipping point that is passed in which Israel must feel that it must defend itself with a pre-emptive attack on the installations of Iran that threaten the Jewish state. Being a state run by a Conservative government, this is very much in line with what I stated earlier.
What are you talking about? If Israel undertakes military action, it won't be to stop stoning. Automatically Appended Next Post: dogma wrote:That's actually an interesting question.
Do nation's with highly restrictive laws regarding sexuality have lower rates of STD infection?
The intuitive answer seems to be 'yes', but I'm left wondering how the relative degrees of regard for the female sex impacts the matter. And how medical standards correlate to the rate of STD infection.
I'm not so sure. The extent of the AIDS epidemic in Africa certainly argues otherwise.
I wonder how hard it would be to build decent comparitive data, I would certainly expect a strong under-reporting of STDs in countries with strict taboos over sex. Automatically Appended Next Post: youbedead wrote:The islamic nations in the middle east were the leaders of science, learning, and tolerance for much of history. Particularly during the middle ages, it wasn't until the mid 1900's that the countries became extremely religious and extremist
Yeah, the shift towards fundamentalist Islam really needs to be understood. People also need to understand that the religion is not a monolithic block, and it really does vary tremendously from region to region, person to person, just like Christianity does.
Tehran is a very cultured, modern city, and very different to the Iranian countryside, where most of the horror stories come from. Automatically Appended Next Post: dogma wrote:Absolutely, but I was under the impression that this had become a conversation about the use of force in the course of imposing moral standards. Like it or not, the Iranians are presently using force in order to punish a woman for legal transgressions that are based on moral judgments. I'm arguing that, if we take overt action against Iran, then we are doing the same categorical thing; though obviously one can, and I would, make the case that matters of degree must also be considered. However, if we are considering only matters of degree, then the fact that a given sort of punishment is violent or forceful does not intrinsically render it wrong.
Now, I don't think moral umbrage is sufficient to compel geopolitical action, but if it were, then the case for taking such an action must be more complicated than 'Punishment X is forceful/violent'.
From a purely utilitarian point of view, the thought of military action over a cruel punishment makes no sense. If we were to undertake military action, we would have to drop bombs, some of which would land on women. The number who'd die to stoning would be miniscule compared to the number who would die due to our action to save them.
It simply makes no sense.
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/09/07 03:57:25
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 03:57:55
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
|
Self-defense has nothing to do with morality, it is simply self-presevation.
I am not passing judgement on another entity and then seeking him/her out to commit violence against them based upon said morale judgement, I am being attacked (a physical action) and defending myself to not be injured/killed in the moment. Self-presevation is in-born, not based upon laws or morality.
The leap of logic here is dumbfounding...
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 04:04:47
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms
|
I really don't see what the deal is here.
Sure, is it cruel? Absolutely. But just because we disagree with Iran's policy doesn't mean we should threaten them or slap them on the wrist for it. Western culture is having an alarming tendency to not give a feth about other ways of life, regardless of whether it's right or wrong in our eyes.
|
Some people play to win, some people play for fun. Me? I play to kill toy soldiers.
DR:90S++GMB++IPwh40k206#+D++A++/hWD350R+++T(S)DM+
WHFB, AoS, 40k, WM/H, Starship Troopers Miniatures, FoW
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 04:05:15
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
|
Monster Rain wrote:
I think that the act itself should be considered as to whether or not force is required. The case of the woman being stoned to death: Adultery is not a violent act, so violence in redressing the act of adultery is completely uncalled for.
The act of stoning is a violent act, therefore I would say that violence would be justified to either redress or prevent it. Completely subjective, I grant you. 
Sure, that's certainly a valid position. I was merely questioning the idea that violence is never justified in the course of enforcing a moral imperative. The self-defense paradox is just the classic argument against that idea, and its usually resolved in exactly the way you're just outlined.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CT GAMER wrote:
Self-defense has nothing to do with morality, it is simply self-presevation.
I am not passing judgement on another entity and then seeking him/her out to commit violence against them based upon said morale judgement, I am being attacked (a physical action) and defending myself to not be injured/killed in the moment. Self-presevation is in-born, not based upon laws or morality.
The leap of logic here is dumbfounding...
Self-preservation may indeed be a natural reflex, though so apparently is the tendency of humans to create moral systems. Moreover, I'm not talking about the tendency of people to defend themselves. I'm talking about the right of people to defend themselves, and whether or not violence can be acceptably used in the defense/enforcement of that right.
It is one thing to say that people naturally attempt to defend themselves, it is another to say that they are right to do so. Automatically Appended Next Post: sebster wrote:
From a purely utilitarian point of view, the thought of military action over a cruel punishment makes no sense. If we were to undertake military action, we would have to drop bombs, some of which would land on women. The number who'd die to stoning would be miniscule compared to the number who would die due to our action to save them.
It simply makes no sense.
That's essentially my thinking as well. Though I'd also add that there is no guarantee that military action can reliably modify the behavior of nations. Just look at Turkey and its renewed struggle with fundamentalism.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/09/07 04:11:46
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 04:58:19
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
sebster wrote: WarOne wrote:A petition will not stop the death of this woman, as the context of a petition is for democratic and capitalist societies with greater transparency than Iran has. Such a petition will do little to sway the hearts of the Iranians in charge of the fate of the stoning. No... did I say petitions were the best response? The best and perhaps only lasting solution is to open the doors to Iranians meeting our culture. Study over here, and return home with a head full of Western ideas. It's what's been happening for a couple of generations, it's why the government had to clamp down so hard in the wake of the election, it's why they had to cheat in the election. No, but a liberal would attempt such a thing and the consequence will be an attaboy at the end of the day and no closer achievable objective to getting this woman off of death row. 70 percent of their citizenry is under 30, thus most of them were born past the Iranian Revolution. Not all of them will adhere to the Westernization that would modernize their country to the extent that they become an open and democratic society. However, they need the influx of Western scientific thought if they wish to push their 65 million or so citizens into a more advanced state. Like China, they will need to balance their clinging dogma with suppressing the urge to democratize. WarOne wrote:Israel on the other hand is more than willing to initiate a war if it feels that there is a tipping point that is passed in which Israel must feel that it must defend itself with a pre-emptive attack on the installations of Iran that threaten the Jewish state. Being a state run by a Conservative government, this is very much in line with what I stated earlier. sebster wrote:What are you talking about? If Israel undertakes military action, it won't be to stop stoning. Exactly. A Conservative solution still would not solve the problem that is just as unsolvable as the liberal signing a petition. As absurd it is to talk about bombing Iran through moral indignation, I don't have Bush to illustrate that stupidity anymore, so I have the fallback Israel to do it for me. You think Obama would bomb the Iranians to stop them from doing things? Nah. If Iran touted it had the bomb, America would wring its hands at the United Nations and get nothing done. Israel would blow that nation to kingdom come. It simply makes no sense, but that is what a Conservative would do. And yes it has nothing to do with stoning an adultering woman under Sharia law, but that is what a Conservative would do.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/09/07 04:59:34
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 05:15:10
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
|
Those still seem like some gross and inaccurate generalizations.
|
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 05:29:57
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Mannahnin wrote:Those still seem like some gross and inaccurate generalizations. Correct. I don't believe I have hashed anything I have said about the generalizations, although we are now adding in some more adjectives to the generalizations with adding in gross and inaccurate. EDIT: The point is is that what are Non-Iranian and preferrable Western liberals and what are conservatives (more about the liberal attempts) going to do to save this woman if their objective would be to save her and the world was as black and white as two polar opposite political alignments with nothing inbetween?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 05:32:57
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 05:49:42
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
|
WarOne wrote:
Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, the wife of the President of France and a woman whose political leanings appear left, signed a petition for the release of the woman in question to be executed by the Iranians.
In response, the Iranians called her a prostitute over local media outlets, especially in an editorial form.
Heh.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Sadly enough, some people would disagree with us that legal rape is a bad thing.
Amazingly enough, the idea that a Husband is actually capable of committing rape against his own Wife is a (relatively) new idea, even in the Western World.
|
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 05:51:26
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
|
WarOne wrote:As absurd it is to talk about bombing Iran through moral indignation, I don't have Bush to illustrate that stupidity anymore, so I have the fallback Israel to do it for me. You think Obama would bomb the Iranians to stop them from doing things? Nah. If Iran touted it had the bomb, America would wring its hands at the United Nations and get nothing done.
Israel would blow that nation to kingdom come.
It simply makes no sense, but that is what a Conservative would do.
And yes it has nothing to do with stoning an adultering woman under Sharia law, but that is what a Conservative would do.
What point is it that you're attempting to make, exactly?
As far as the Israel thing goes, they wouldn't be bombing Iran out of moral indignation but because they have some pretty valid concerns over Iran's plans to have nuclear weapons. And if you don't know why that is I'm afraid that you're not paying very close attention to what Iran's president has been saying over the last few years.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Amazingly enough, the idea that a Husband is actually capable of committing rape against his own Wife is a (relatively) new idea, even in the Western World.
Better late than never, yeah? And that still doesn't make it okay for other countries to condone it.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/07 05:54:45
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 05:59:53
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
WarOne wrote:No, but a liberal would attempt such a thing and the consequence will be an attaboy at the end of the day and no closer achievable objective to getting this woman off of death row.
No, the ineffective actions of one liberal, in one place, does not create a description of the actions of all liberals in all places. You are ascribing to this an easy kind of fatalism, ignoring that societies really do reform, build improved standards of human rights, and that the outside world can and has played an important part in making that happen.
Look at the dramatic improvements in human rights in Jordan in the latter half of the 20th C.
70 percent of their citizenry is under 30, thus most of them were born past the Iranian Revolution. Not all of them will adhere to the Westernization that would modernize their country to the extent that they become an open and democratic society. However, they need the influx of Western scientific thought if they wish to push their 65 million or so citizens into a more advanced state. Like China, they will need to balance their clinging dogma with suppressing the urge to democratize.
Iran is not China, the political landscape of each country is wildly different.
Exactly. A Conservative solution still would not solve the problem that is just as unsolvable as the liberal signing a petition.
As absurd it is to talk about bombing Iran through moral indignation, I don't have Bush to illustrate that stupidity anymore, so I have the fallback Israel to do it for me. You think Obama would bomb the Iranians to stop them from doing things? Nah. If Iran touted it had the bomb, America would wring its hands at the United Nations and get nothing done.
Israel would blow that nation to kingdom come.
It simply makes no sense, but that is what a Conservative would do.
And yes it has nothing to do with stoning an adultering woman under Sharia law, but that is what a Conservative would do.
Bombing a country to prevent the development of nuclear weapons is a wholly different to bombing a country due to a barbaric legal practice. They're just not comparable. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cryonicleech wrote:I really don't see what the deal is here.
Sure, is it cruel? Absolutely. But just because we disagree with Iran's policy doesn't mean we should threaten them or slap them on the wrist for it. Western culture is having an alarming tendency to not give a feth about other ways of life, regardless of whether it's right or wrong in our eyes.
There's a lot of points between complete cultural relativism and none at all. We can argue against people who look to diminish all elements of other culture and raise their own up to a point of superiority, while at the same time considering genital mutilation and stoning to be very fethed up indeed.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 06:00:05
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 06:40:07
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
WarOne wrote:No, but a liberal would attempt such a thing and the consequence will be an attaboy at the end of the day and no closer achievable objective to getting this woman off of death row. sebster wrote: No, the ineffective actions of one liberal, in one place, does not create a description of the actions of all liberals in all places. You are ascribing to this an easy kind of fatalism, ignoring that societies really do reform, build improved standards of human rights, and that the outside world can and has played an important part in making that happen. Look at the dramatic improvements in human rights in Jordan in the latter half of the 20th C. It is not one liberal. However, by dissecting my gross, inaccurate over simplification and broad generalization of liberals means I have no context to which to make a statement such as "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery." Given time, I could compile the mutlitude of liberals with sentiments that prove "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery." However, I am confident in my statement that "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery" and remove any pretext for context as it is much simplier for the context of arguing on a website dedicated to miniatures gaming in a segment of the forum dedicated to nonwargaming topics about how "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery" and that it won't help save her. And the Jordanians should be applauded for their effors. And the woman that will be stoned to death will still die if the Iranians choose to execute her and this will be independent of what a portion of the population with liberal leanings say should not happen. WarOne wrote:70 percent of their citizenry is under 30, thus most of them were born past the Iranian Revolution. Not all of them will adhere to the Westernization that would modernize their country to the extent that they become an open and democratic society. However, they need the influx of Western scientific thought if they wish to push their 65 million or so citizens into a more advanced state. Like China, they will need to balance their clinging dogma with suppressing the urge to democratize. sebster wrote:Iran is not China, the political landscape of each country is wildly different. And America is not Europe, but by definition it is in the "Western World." And it is this Western World that non-Western nations must struggle against. China did so in one context, and Iran must do so in another. WarOne wrote:Exactly. A Conservative solution still would not solve the problem that is just as unsolvable as the liberal signing a petition. As absurd it is to talk about bombing Iran through moral indignation, I don't have Bush to illustrate that stupidity anymore, so I have the fallback Israel to do it for me. You think Obama would bomb the Iranians to stop them from doing things? Nah. If Iran touted it had the bomb, America would wring its hands at the United Nations and get nothing done. Israel would blow that nation to kingdom come. It simply makes no sense, but that is what a Conservative would do. And yes it has nothing to do with stoning an adultering woman under Sharia law, but that is what a Conservative would do. sebster wrote:Bombing a country to prevent the development of nuclear weapons is a wholly different to bombing a country due to a barbaric legal practice. They're just not comparable. But yet if it is a Conservative bombing a nation to stop something, do you think it will stop something?
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/09/07 06:43:15
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 07:05:21
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
|
Emperors Faithful wrote:WarOne wrote:
Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, the wife of the President of France and a woman whose political leanings appear left, signed a petition for the release of the woman in question to be executed by the Iranians.
In response, the Iranians called her a prostitute over local media outlets, especially in an editorial form.
Heh.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Sadly enough, some people would disagree with us that legal rape is a bad thing.
Amazingly enough, the idea that a Husband is actually capable of committing rape against his own Wife is a (relatively) new idea, even in the Western World.
It was outlawed in the UK in 1991.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 07:14:33
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
WarOne wrote:It is not one liberal. However, by dissecting my gross, inaccurate over simplification and broad generalization of liberals means I have no context to which to make a statement such as "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery."
Given time, I could compile the mutlitude of liberals with sentiments that prove "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery." However, I am confident in my statement that "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery" and remove any pretext for context as it is much simplier for the context of arguing on a website dedicated to miniatures gaming in a segment of the forum dedicated to nonwargaming topics about how "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery" and that it won't help save her.
Just... don't make 'liberals think this or that' statements. They're not useful.
And the Jordanians should be applauded for their effors.
And the woman that will be stoned to death will still die if the Iranians choose to execute her and this will be independent of what a portion of the population with liberal leanings say should not happen.
Yeah, it'll happen and it'll suck. Lots of sucky things have happened, lots more sucky things will happen. What we need to do is properly understand our ability to influence things elsewhere in the world (we wildly over-estimate our ability and under-estimate it, often in the same sentence) and set about doing what we can to actually change things for the better.
WarOne wrote:And America is not Europe, but by definition it is in the "Western World." And it is this Western World that non-Western nations must struggle against. China did so in one context, and Iran must do so in another.
China doesn't struggle against the Western World anymore than New Zealand does. It competes for competitive advantage and areas of dominance, like the rest of us in the West do.
Iran is in a totally different situation, demonstrated by the recent round of UN sanctions. It also has a totally different government environment.
But yet if it is a Conservative bombing a nation to stop something, do you think it will stop something?
It depends on what it is trying to stop. You can target large industrial facilities to stop a country doing something, like building a bomb. You can't bomb someone to force them to change a legal practice, it's nonsensical and will result in the targetted country just saying 'no'.
|
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 07:38:22
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
WarOne wrote:It is not one liberal. However, by dissecting my gross, inaccurate over simplification and broad generalization of liberals means I have no context to which to make a statement such as "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery." Given time, I could compile the mutlitude of liberals with sentiments that prove "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery." However, I am confident in my statement that "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery" and remove any pretext for context as it is much simplier for the context of arguing on a website dedicated to miniatures gaming in a segment of the forum dedicated to nonwargaming topics about how "liberals oppose stoning a woman to death for adultery" and that it won't help save her. sebster wrote:Just... don't make 'liberals think this or that' statements. They're not useful. So I cannot say "liberals have negative feelings toward Glenn Beck?" I don't know how smart you think I am, but I am not as smart as you. Generalizations make my world a better place to place things into perspective and say things within the span of a casual conversation. I cannot take the time I have to properly research something and come to a concluded and well seasoned statment backed by hundreds of hours of investigative and sound information processing. Without generalizations, I would not be able to say things like "America won World War II" without having to interject thnigs like "and the British victory in the Battle of Britain helped" and the "grinding campaigning of the Eastern Front by Soviet forces against an overconfident and micromanaged German army." WarOne wrote:And the woman that will be stoned to death will still die if the Iranians choose to execute her and this will be independent of what a portion of the population with liberal leanings say should not happen. sebster wrote:Yeah, it'll happen and it'll suck. Lots of sucky things have happened, lots more sucky things will happen. What we need to do is properly understand our ability to influence things elsewhere in the world (we wildly over-estimate our ability and under-estimate it, often in the same sentence) and set about doing what we can to actually change things for the better. WarOne wrote:And America is not Europe, but by definition it is in the "Western World." And it is this Western World that non-Western nations must struggle against. China did so in one context, and Iran must do so in another. sebster wrote:China doesn't struggle against the Western World anymore than New Zealand does. It competes for competitive advantage and areas of dominance, like the rest of us in the West do. Iran is in a totally different situation, demonstrated by the recent round of UN sanctions. It also has a totally different government environment. Notice how there are different contexts for discussion about China and Iran. New Zealand is the Western World though, so it does not struggle with the concept of Westernization. China on the other hand has a developing capitalist-command economy with a government that resists Western influence upon its culture and has a population that ranges from underdeveloped to developed in terms of living standards. China is also seen as a World Power or next to World Power and thus has more political clout and influence on a global scale. In Iran's context, Iran has to deal with a youth population that is eager to embrace the technological advances of the Western World, and to some extent the free exchange of ideas. Iran has to deal with accepting this population will undo some of the victories that the Iranian Revolution brought about. What is accepted in the end is not for me to divine, as I do not know where Iran will end up say five years down the road. Iran however does not have China's clout, is considered an upstart nation (not like North Korea is considered) and does not want to play along with other powerful nations and their rules government nuclear proliferation and energy. But in the end, both nations must struggle against the Western/Non-Western World axis of thought. WarOne wrote:But yet if it is a Conservative bombing a nation to stop something, do you think it will stop something? sebster wrote:It depends on what it is trying to stop. You can target large industrial facilities to stop a country doing something, like building a bomb. You can't bomb someone to force them to change a legal practice, it's nonsensical and will result in the targetted country just saying 'no'. Do you think that Iran will stop in the first event?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 07:39:57
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 07:43:57
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
|
It is one thing to generalise about historical events which are fairly well understood, and a completely different thing to generalise about possible future behaviour of individuals, which is what you do when you say, "liberals would do this".
In effect you are setting up a straw man argument.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 08:03:35
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Kilkrazy wrote:It is one thing to generalise about historical events which are fairly well understood, and a completely different thing to generalise about possible future behaviour of individuals, which is what you do when you say, "liberals would do this".
In effect you are setting up a straw man argument.
Correct. That is exactly what I did to illustrate the fact that liberals cannot stop the death of this woman in Iran.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 12:17:06
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
One should only tolerate what is right and just.
Having said that there's also the policy of not telling others what to do. I have no problem decrying Iran for its behavior, but its their country. if they want to make it a hell hole thats their deal, not mine.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 12:38:24
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 13:29:16
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Frazzled wrote:One should only tolerate what is right and just. Having said that there's also the policy of not telling others what to do. I have no problem decrying Iran for its behavior, but its their country. if they want to make it a hell hole thats their deal, not mine. So what do you think about American interventionalism? Also... Thanks for the diversion Frazzled! I can now escape in my rocketship from this debate!
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 13:30:31
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 13:41:40
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
SamplesoWoopass wrote:
Well, you see, the thing about that is they really are. Everyone who makes the call to bomb anything knows for a fact that the majority of bombs dropped will miss their targets and hit civilians, and they're perfectly okay with that.
I see you've never been in the military or know much about bombing missions.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 14:27:59
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
Preacher of the Emperor
|
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:BTW, did anyone know that it is legal for a husband to rape his wife every 3 days in Iran? Talk about anti-female...!
Anti-Female? Are you kidding me? They give her two days between rapes. For Iran that's positively left wing progressive thinking in the extreme.
|
mattyrm wrote: I will bro fist a toilet cleaner.
I will chainfist a pretentious English literature student who wears a beret.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 14:30:48
Subject: Women To Be Lashed 99 Times Before Being Stoned to Death.
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
This could be easily fixed by giving women guns or access to large meat cleavers. Don't fix the blame, fix the problem.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 14:31:17
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
|