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Two words: Chaos Squats.

Awwww, yeah.

I'm just going to respond in red.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Manchu wrote:- Squats are a ripoff of fantasy dwarves/dwarfs: your point? (ahem, Eldar)

My point is, Eldar are no longer simply fantasy elves with spaceships. The Webway, Spirit Stones, Aspect Warrior paths, and a host of other things are not just simple rips from fantasy to 40k. Squat fluff hasn't been developed like that, their clan structure, living in mountain fortresses, ancestor worship, and so on come right from fantasy.

Quite simply, squats do not have as much development as Eldar. But if you read more about Elves in WHFB you may find they are not so different from Eldar after all.

- Squats have a silly name: granted but so what? (Eldar v. Dark Eldar, the names of all SM Chapters, etc)

What do you mean so what? 'Squat' is a funny sounding word with unfortunate connotations. In my experience, the first response to people hearing of them is to snicker over the name. I don't know of any other armies that have this problem, aside from obscure Space Marine chapters that GW doesn't bring up any more (Rainbow Warriors). You may not like the "Space Wolves", and may think that "Dark Eldar" shows a lack of creativity, but I've never heard someone snickering about their name when they first heard it.

I have seen people snicker at the name Space Wolves when I've told them about it. Ultramarines, too. Squat is a silly word but you get used to it. Just like the word "dwarf."

- Squats as an army are redundant: let's see here, would you rather play Space Marines? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Black Templars? Blood Angels? Grey Templars? Chaos Space Marines?

Let's see here, your solution is to add 'short marines with potbellied terminator armor'? The fact that there are lots of marine codexes has nothing to do with whether a squat codex would be a good idea, it's irrelevant. It would only make sense if the choice was between 'another marine codex' and 'a squat codex', which is not what the poll says and certainly wasn't what I was saying.

Aside from the proliferation of marine chapters (who IMO should really just have two main variants, the 'pretty normal' marines and the 'raging melee lunatics'), each army has a really distinct playstyle now, sometimes several. The game has come a long way from the days when Imperials, Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids all used the same equipment. What unique aspects were there to the old Squat army in 40k that you think should be brought forward - bikes, lasguns, artillery, and slow terminator armor don't seem all that compelling to me?

So you are comparing an RT army against 5th edition ones? That's not a discussion I'm willing to indulge. As a 5th edition army, Squats would most likely be designed with a unique play style. And even if they weren't that would not be a problem with GW. As we can see from the proliferation of Marine codices, unique play style isn't a requirement to have a codex.

- Squats as a fluff concept are redundant: saying they overlap with Ad Mech is pretty lame; as has already been pointed out, Squats not only scoff at notions of the Omnissiah (they worshipped their ancestors like most dwarves/dwarfs, which could be given very cool twists in a scifi setting), but they also advocate technological innovation

Saying a valid point is pretty lame is pretty lame itself - the squats can't come back in their old position within the Imperium, the AM took it over. Either GW would have to scrap a lot of what's been developed for the AM, which they're not going to do, or they'd need a completely new setup for how the squats relate to the Imperium.

Saying a lame point is lame isn't lame at all. Squats and Ad Mech do not overlap. If you think they do, then you do not know enough about Squats or Ad Mech or both.

The Adeptus Mechanicus are allied to and incorporated with the Imperium but have their own religion and basically seperate government, and provide high technology and maintain equipment the squats were... what the AM have become now. It doesn't matter that some details about the squats are different (like what their religion is), the fact is that their old position in the Imperium has been taken over by the AM.

I'd say that you know enough about Ad Mech. Time to learn more about Squats.

Should they have their own army? I don't know. A lot has changed in 40k since they last had one. But they shouldn't have been "squatted."

BTW, the question is not "should the Squarts be brought back?" but rather "Are you glad they were eliminated?"

I want squats back too...and make their focus be on thunderhammers.

Low initiative...high toughness...high strength.

I don't personally want to play them because space dwarves is not my flavor...but I would love to see it on a board...

I only started collecting Squats because because my friend threw in a squad of 5 with some marines I bought off him. I didn't really care much for squats before that... In fact I think I remember telling him he could keep them.

But Squats were one of those armies like Orks that grow on you. At first you hate them cause they are not Space Marines. but filthy aliens who need to be purged. But after a while you come around, and start to see all the charm and character.

Orks stop looking like evil bad guys, and become Lovable brutes, who just wanna build crazy contraptions, and grow squigs and fungus, and enjoy a good fight.

Squats had their charm too. They actually became my favourite army, and were very rewarding to collect and paint and also very competitive to play with. They had super high leadership, on a par with marines and orks in CC, but relatively cheap like guard. The Ancestor Lord was a psychic beast. And they had cool wargear left over from the dark age of technology. Like exo armour suites (squat terminators). And no one who ever witnessed the much coveted Gravitation Gun in the hands of a BS6 squat engineer will ever forget it. Another thing I liked about squats was they had a long running feud with the Orks, and actually made use of the Hatred rule (preferred enemy), which was otherwise never seen except I think on Tycho and sometimes randomly with madboyz. The only downside was they had 3 inch movement, which was its own unique challenge.

I was sorry to see them go, but even more sorry that they never got a proper codex book or special characters. The thing that pissed me off the most is that someone (Jervis I think) actually took the time to write a white dwarf article about playing squats as 'counts as orks' when in the same amount of time he could have just made some basic rules for them (Like they did for Necrons in 2nd edition) or updated the old rules and they would have been official again.

Trying to remove them from history was a really weird and heavy handed thing to do. I don't think they will ever go away, They are just too deeply engrained in 40k history, and it makes me happy that new players take an interest in them. Hopefully one day they will be brought back and expanded upon.

I would like to see one Space Dwarf standing on the shoulders of another.

wearing power armour.


Dancing with a SoB like that scene in Snow White.
Hmmm
So that's where you got the moniker from Dancing With Squats!

Manchu wrote:I have seen people snicker at the name Space Wolves when I've told them about it. Ultramarines, too. Squat is a silly word but you get used to it. Just like the word "dwarf."

No, I don't get used to it, I thought it was silly back in 1991, and I think it's silly now. This discussion demonstrates why I think bringing squats back would be a bad idea - I'd bet good money that GW wouldn't use a name that goofy now, but the old diehards squat fans who'd be interested in a squat list would hate them changing it. Way better to just start over and make something new.

So you are comparing an RT army against 5th edition ones? That's not a discussion I'm willing to indulge. As a 5th edition army, Squats would most likely be designed with a unique play style. And even if they weren't that would not be a problem with GW. As we can see from the proliferation of Marine codices, unique play style isn't a requirement to have a codex.

So you don't want to talk about squats? They're a RT army (with a temporary 2nd ed list), and they're what the thread is about. They don't have a 5th edition codex. They never had a unique 40k playstyle, so I don't miss it (back to the original poll question), and because they don't have any sort of unique playstyle I don't see any point in bringing them back now. Why should I want to see squats when you admit that they don't have an interesting play style and would need to be completely revamped for 5th edition? Complaining about marine codexes doesn't say anything good about squats.

Saying a lame point is lame isn't lame at all. Squats and Ad Mech do not overlap. If you think they do, then you do not know enough about Squats or Ad Mech or both.

Saying 'oh you're wrong' without supporting it is lame, especially when you're calling me lame. Squats in the old fluff occupied a position virtually the same as the Admech do now. Squats and AM are not identical, but the major characteristics of how the squats fit into the Imperium are now how the AM fits into the Imperium. The cogboys took the stunties' spot! You have yet to name something specific that I'm wrong about in how the squats were related to the Imperium - for example, I didn't say that they had the same religion as the Admech, just that, like the Admech, they had a different religion, so there's nothing really to converse about.

Telling me 'oh you're wrong' and going on about your dislike of marine codexes isn't going to convince me or anyone else who isn't a squat fan that bringing them back is something we like, or that cutting them out was a bad idea. Why not talk about the good points of squats, like what their army would be like in 40k, and what their background would bring to the fluff? That way you might get someone to change their mind.

I'm not totally interested in changing your mind, especially now that I know it's been made up since 1991.

Once again, however, let me remind you that the thread is about whether you're glad they're gone and not whether you want them to come back. So it's not really important whether or not they'd change the name. And you, just like the rest of us, don't know if they would actually change the name. My point is that GW has kept plenty of other goofy names around and most of us are now past complaining about them. Maybe the same could be said of Squats. Maybe not. Lord knows I still think "Space Sharks" is terrible.

On to the problem of Ad Mech comparisons, since you demand that I teach about these Space Dwarves you've hated for near on two decades. Yes, Ad Mech and Squats both had access to advanced technology and fixed things. And that's the sum total of their similarities. You say that they also share having different religious views from the Imperium. Well, the same could be said of Space Marines. It's just not much of a point. What's far more interesting is how different their religious views are. Similarly, the Squat worlds are semi-autonomous . . . just like Forge Worlds. But so are Chapter homeworlds, and it'd be stupid to say for this reason that Space Marines and Ad Mech overlap.

Furthermore, Squats are an entire society of abhumans--something that exists nowhere else in the fluff. And their society is not integrated physically with the rest of the Imperium but relegated to a discrete corner of the galaxy. They have no doctrinal preference for augmentation over their flesh. They have a long history of dealings with true xenos and have no prejudice against or superstitions regarding xenotech. They look at technology in a totally practical way and regard the Ad Mech as would-be mystics. Of course, this means that the Squats also see nothing wrong with innovation and development. Finally, they are known for their love of epic poetry and song--especially concerning the deeds of their ancestors.

The Squats show us interesting things about the world of 40k. They not only give us insight into the politics of the contemporary Imperium but also the Imperium of the earliest days of the Great Crusade. They also give us a window, uncolored by the superstitions of Mars and Terra, into the ancient times of Old Night. Losing them as an army means we have lost the opportunity to explore a great deal of the history of humanity in that universe. It'd have been better for many reasons if the Squats had not been squatted but these missed opportunities are some of the most tragic as far as I'm concerned.

Once again, I actually don't hate the Marine codices. I was just addressing an argument. People claimed that the Squats would be a redundant army. The example of the Marine books just proves that redundancy is not a stumbling block for either GW or 40k players so it would not matter that the Squats would be redundant.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Dancing with a SoB like that scene in Snow White.
Hmmm
So that's where you got the moniker from Dancing With Squats!

At least we get the women.

The squats were great in their day but sadly for many that day has passed (if you believe in 5th) however my squats still exist in both games; it's just in RT they're ass kicking super tech space dwarfs and in 5th they're guardsmen with a true LOS issue.

This is sad for those that live in the grimdark 5th ed. corporate world of modern day GW,

If the Squats had been given the same attention as some of the other armies from 2nd ed and been carried over into successive editions this discussion would not be needed. 2nd ed did NOT include DE as an original base army. It did include Squats.

But hey.. lets compare.... basic Squat from 2nd ed to basic IG and Ork....

Troop - WS - BS - S - T - W - I - A - Ld - Sv
IG - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 1 - 7 - 5+
Squat - 4 - 3 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 9 - 4+
Ork - 4 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 7 - 6+
Now, since the basic stats haven't changed since 2nd ed, can it really be said that IG or Orks are a good substitute for Squats? The IG model drops 1 point in WS and T and 2 in LD with a worse save. Ork drops 1 point in BS, 2 in LD with an even worse save than IG but gives +1 attack.
Squats also had the advantage of taking Heavy Weapons and Bikes as Troop choices, something only certain SM or CSM builds can do. Yes, they had some weapons that other imperial armies had limited access to, but to say they have been "replaced" by any other not currently supported list is 'lame'.

I played against a guy with a squat army, it was actually really cool, they were being used as space marine scouts, with three thunderfire cannons and a conversion beamer forgemaster, the bikers were scout-bikes. It looked cool, but probably wasn't the most competitive thing ever...

Note on the Red thing: Funny you say that, as I didn't play in 3rd edition either, which, if the legends are true, tells of a time when the dark future was dominated by red marines and red orks.

The models are STILL sweet.

Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

They look nothing like humans... so I wouldn't class them as abhuman, just... an unreal mistake.

Henners91 wrote:Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

They look nothing like humans... so I wouldn't class them as abhuman, just... an unreal mistake.

That's cool. You don't have to like them. But I sure do.

Henners91 wrote:Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

Back then, Chaos Dread looks like this:



Don't get me wrong, I think that thing is awesome. But not everyone will appreciate that era of aesthetics.

Anyway, I think Squats would look quite different if they had been around all this time.



That's an awesome model. And it has almost no distinctive development. Imagine if there were twenty years of continuous Squat design development.

I must admit that compared to the previously posted models, that one looks pretty new.

It is pretty new--last year's WD model.

I voted yes, because I am not really a person. But a demon who feeds upon the tears of nerds.

Henners91 wrote:Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

My squats were fairly grimdark I think, and these guys were painted when bright and shiney was the order of things.

Really, I am abig fan of the Squats. I sold my Squat army I had been working on since 1988 earlier this year to try and make some ends meet. In the 40K "big picture" the Squats were edited out for all the reasons given above, and replaced quite sensibly with the Tau. The similarities are there if you look. They just made them Xenos instead of Abhumans, and made them less assaulty instead of more. So the high tech innovative guys are still with us, they are just blue and skinny instead of short and bearded. Even the leaders still get the cool armor

they're guardsmen with a true LOS issue.

Do you mean like Gimli on the parapets at Helm's Deep?

That figure with the St.George's Cross button looks uncannily like Fidel Castro.
Is that intended as part of the humour back then?

Just thought at least you CAN get 10 squats in a Rhino, unlike SM's
Those Termies are so cute! Me want!
Look good SmackCakes!

Hmm...can't I be glad they got rid of squats, but still like squats? Liking and not wanting aren't exclusive of each other. I like all women. Doesn't mean I want all women

Hey I'm just glad that the Squats existed at one time. Hell I thought I was going nuts. I vividly recall seeing some dwarfs with guns fighting Orks at a game shop when I was six. I kept thinking I swore there were dwarfs in 40k...I just knew it. But then I figured maybe I had saw Warhammer fantasy next to the Orks and Space Marines.

I just don't like it when GW squats entire ranges of stuff. It sets a precedent that has lost us Lost and the Damned, Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, among others.

Also, model ranges change. I don't think that's an adequate reason to remove an army.

Was it worth it to 'squat' the Squats in the long run, though? Maybe. I don't really feel they had a ton going for them in terms of unique character (even Evil Space Elves have some interesting history mostly unique to 40k), and their loss, imho, is not as bad as the loss of the other, more develop-able codex ideas.

I'm more bothered by the clumsy fluff removal then I am by the army not being supported. Having a sizable number of heavily defended worlds gouged out of the center of the galaxy sometime in the last fifty years (i.e. in between Armageddon 2 and 3) by the Tyranids was a piss poor story choice.

I can guarantee any RPGs I run in 40k the Squat strongholds live on (perhaps embattled and unable to actively support the Imperium any longer but not instantly wiped from the universe).

Jack

gazelle wrote:Xenos instead of Abhumans,

gazelle wrote:less assaulty instead of more.

gazelle wrote:blue and skinny instead of short and bearded

...so in other words, Tau aren't like Squats at all?

I mean, if one or two similarities is all it takes, then Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines both wear power armor, so clearly they're IDENTICAL! And Necrons and Tyranids, neither of them have Warp signatures, so obviously they're exactly alike! Oh, and Orks and Eldar, they both like close combat, so clearly they're the same faction!

Oh wait, no they're not.

I do think it is interesting to note that Squats were, technically replaced with the Dark Eldar at the same time that TSR was publishing the "Icewind Dale" books that made the Drow (dark elves) extremely popular.
Nah, that can't have had any influence on making a spacefaring dark elf race.....

I've got a few things to touch on here. First, how many of you 'Squat Haters' were actually legal to drive back in the day, let alone were involved in the hobby? Some of you speak of the models being 'lame', but did any of you notice that ALL of the ork boys looked like someone had just jerked the toilet out from under them? The game, back then, was a lot more jovial tham it is now. Get a hold of a copy of 'Er We Go, or one of the other ork books drom 1st or 2nd edition and give it a look. I think the bottom line here isn't a matter of wether or not the army 'resembled' this or that, but that GW nixed an entire army for one reason or another. They've since done it to Lost & the Damned, 13th Company, Legion of the Damned and even though they technically haven't done away with them, they have absorbed or changed others to the point that you can't play them as they were originally designed or collected (case in point 3rd edition White Scars - look up the original army layout from WD or Chapter Approved and be very glad that those rules no longer apply!). Sorry boys, I didn't mean to go on a rant but as someone who has been into this for over 20 years, I find some of your arguments a little bit silly.......

helgrenze wrote:I do think it is interesting to note that Squats were, technically replaced with the Dark Eldar at the same time that TSR was publishing the "Icewind Dale" books that made the Drow (dark elves) extremely popular.
Nah, that can't have had any influence on making a spacefaring dark elf race.....

Except that WHFB Dark Elves had been around long prior to the Icewind Dale trilogy.

I know this because I'm a huge R.A. Salvatore fan myself.

Maybe Forgotten Realms books had some influence on the emergence of Dark Eldar, but not as much as you give them credit for, in my opinion.

SaintHazard wrote:I mean, if one or two similarities is all it takes, then Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines both wear power armor, so clearly they're IDENTICAL!

You know, while I agree with your conclusion, that's not a good comparison.

Considering that Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines are, in the end, no more than differing varieties of Space Marines and all.

It's generally the daemons, sorcerers, and mutants that make the various forces of Chaos different from that of the Imperium, rather than the Chaos Space Marines.

But they're not interchangable, which is my point. You can't set some Chaos Space Marines down on the table, pull out the Chaos Space Marine codex, and call them Blood Ravens. I mean, technically, by the rules you can, but from a fluff standpoint, you cannot. They're very similar, but they're not IDENTICAL. Maybe the fact that they share WAY more similarities than Squats and Tau makes them a bad example, but my point still stands.