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bigyounk wrote:If it's a White Scar army he should of had the Khan and then he would be outflanking and this deployment would be useless.

Not really. I'm pretty sure that if you can cover the whole long table edge you could cover the two short ones as well.

Only takes 25 models to cover a 72" edge with 2" - a bit less, actually - coherency. One model in each corner on a 1" base, 2" between, next 1" base, 2" along, etc.
Take two squads of 15-20 kroot and he could do that.

Takes 36 to do the same to either flank edge (So if he takes 2 squads of 20 kroot AND goes 2nd after his opponent declares "All in reserve, outflanking" he could do it easliy).

Wow... what an awful yet horribly incredible move... I'm torn between crying at the sheer idiocy of the one guy (poor kid) and laughing my @$$ off, and sneaking away to try it myself.

kartofelkopf wrote:I had a similar thing occur in final round of 'ard Boyz in Philadelphia this year. Was playing a nids player with my Ork horde, and he wins roll, has me go first.

I place things as far forward as I can, and he puts everything into reserve, everything outflanking.

I get two turns of move + run and snikrot + 15 kommandos come on turn 2 as well. I'm able to block off all of one side of the board with the kommandos and some grots, and all but the last 4-6" of the other side with grots and some truk boyz.

He gets in all but 1 unit, and is only able to move 1 unit of genestealers onto the board- he immediately concedes and refuses to play a 'for fun' game instead. So... I sat around in Media, PA for almost 3 hours with nothing to do but watch everyone else's games.

But are the units that were unable to enter the board destroyed? Seems to me that that part is questionable, meaning in the case of the Tau vs White Scars neither player would receive VP's due to destroying models and in your case couldn't it be argued just as well that the units that were unable to enter the board would come on the next turn? I could understand the annoyance from the Tyranid player if the Tournament Organizers ruled those units were destroyed as it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that they would be.

It does however count units not on-table at the end of the game as destroyed...

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It does however count units not on-table at the end of the game as destroyed...

so if they can never come onto the table... you basically cycle through the turns... unable to come onto the table till the "game" is over, at which point they are off table and count as destroyed???

*sighs*

how very dastardly/smart/genius, its exploiting a situation to the fullest.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It does however count units not on-table at the end of the game as destroyed...

I can't find anything in the Reserve rules that supports this statement.

Page number?

How is it exploiting? Not a single rule is even questionable. The coherency is maintained. The rules for infiltrating have been followed. The player in reserve lost himself the game. If anything the outflanking player simply controlled the battlefield so completely, the other players army could not even make it out of reserves.

SaintHazard wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It does however count units not on-table at the end of the game as destroyed...

I can't find anything in the Reserve rules that supports this statement.

Page number?

BRB pg 90 under Wipeout.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It does however count units not on-table at the end of the game as destroyed...

I can't find anything in the Reserve rules that supports this statement.

Page number?

BRB pg 90 under Wipeout.

noted.. but i did pick up on something else... not intentionally keeping this can of worms going.. but....... by turn 5 his reserves have to come on right.... its automatic...... it says, pg94 of BRB under Arriving From Reserve "..Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the table board in the previous turn and moved as normal....."
couldn't one argue that the turn they arrived they couldn't move onto the table because of movement restrictions ect. but couldn't they charge onto the table?? and fill in those 2" gaps with his own models... and basically fight his way onto the table......??

Only by dividing by Zero or expecting clear non-conflicting rules from GW (same thing really...).

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Only by dividing by Zero or expecting clear non-conflicting rules from GW (same thing really...).

soooo.... that a no?? lol

The pic does not give a good perspective
As long as the bikes didn't touch a Kroot base, or end the move within 1" of a Kroot base then he could come on the board.

It looks like there is enough space between a few of those kroot to move onto the table, Since bikes have a base of just less than one inch. and there seems to be more that an inch gap between a few of those bases. he should be able to deploy.

Except that you may not move within 1" of an enemy for the entirety of your movement, not just ending it.

Brother Ramses wrote:How is it exploiting? Not a single rule is even questionable. The coherency is maintained. The rules for infiltrating have been followed. The player in reserve lost himself the game. If anything the outflanking player simply controlled the battlefield so completely, the other players army could not even make it out of reserves.

It's exploiting a loophole because it is deliberately creating a situation not covered by the rules.

Keeping your entire army in reserve is legal. That's covered by the rules.
The infiltration is legal. That's covered by the rules.
What happens when you have to bring units on from reserve, but can't is not covered by the rules.

Contrary to popular opinion, being unable to move on from reserve does not immediately count the unit as destroyed. It doesn't count as anything... you are told that you must bring the unit on but (unless you subscribe to the 'must' over-riding 'may not' theory I mentioned earlier) have no way to do so. So the game comes to a crashing halt until you agree on a house rule to cover the situation.

Again, the rules don't make this an automatic win for the infiltrating player. The house rule that made it so that units unable to move on were immediately destroyed did that.

This is not a triumph of tactical brilliance. It's a player taking advantage of a grey area of the rules, and being handed a win by a judge making up a rule on the spot.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Except that you may not move within 1" of an enemy for the entirety of your movement, not just ending it.

It looks like there is a space enough to move on, but there might not be, you can not really tell from the pic.

but its a BS move anyway, there should be a provision there allowing you to move on if someone tries to do this, GW needs better rules guys.

Well round these parts if you can't or forget to bring something on that you rolled for to come on then it just stays in reserve. But this is insignificant, if they're in reserve by the end of the game they are classed as destroyed for the purposes of Kill Points.

Oshova

DeathReaper wrote:
but its a BS move anyway, there should be a provision there allowing you to move on if someone tries to do this, GW needs better rules guys.

I hope GW shouldn't have to write rules to make up for Player incompentence. Games Workshop is Not Blizzard and 40k is not WoW. The 40k Player base should be able to think, chew bubblegum, and walk at the same time.

People keep coming back to the idea that the player keeping his army in reserve was incompetent... and I'm honestly puzzled as to why.

It's not incompetent to fail to take into account that keeping your entire army in Reserve may result in a tournament judge deciding to just make up a rule that hands your opponent a win.

insaniak wrote:People keep coming back to the idea that the player keeping his army in reserve was incompetent... and I'm honestly puzzled as to why.

It's not incompetent to fail to take into account that keeping your entire army in Reserve may result in a tournament judge deciding to just make up a rule that hands your opponent a win.

valid, and as i mentioned.. it also says ((in the reserves section of rule book)) nothing about charging from the "off table" area.... if they legally HAVE to move onto the table as if they were just off table (i.e. the front of there bases are at the edge of table) and they can't move onto the table during regular move, i am ok with this, but i see no reason why they can not charge into Hand to Hand, destroy a target unit blocking a path and create an opening which other units can pass.

Because you're not on the table maybe? Or maybe everyone should just take round some board extensions just in case this happens. So when your models don't fit on the table, you use a board extension, then charge from there.

Sorry hcordes, it just makes no sense to be able to assault when you're not on the table.

Oshova

insaniak wrote:People keep coming back to the idea that the player keeping his army in reserve was incompetent... and I'm honestly puzzled as to why.

It's not incompetent to fail to take into account that keeping your entire army in Reserve may result in a tournament judge deciding to just make up a rule that hands your opponent a win.

This.

To be fair though, I bet he won't make the same mistake twice!

Oshova wrote:Because you're not on the table maybe? Or maybe everyone should just take round some board extensions just in case this happens. So when your models don't fit on the table, you use a board extension, then charge from there.

Sorry hcordes, it just makes no sense to be able to assault when you're not on the table.

Oshova

it also doesn't make sense that when the rule books says THEY HAVE TO MOVE ONTO THE TABLE, and then.. someone says they can't and are destroyed because he has to make an on-the-spot ruling during a tournament.......

No. They apparently "Have" to move onto the table, but there is nowhere to move onto the table. So they stay in reserve until such a time when there is space.

However, if when the game ends there are any models left in reserve, then the rulebook states they are classed as destroyed.

So whether they are destroyed when they can't get on the table, left in reserve until they can come on, turned into a tasty chocolate dessert, it doesn't really make much difference. The White Scars lose, the Tau get a victory with full victory points, as there are no enemy models on the table, and didn't lose a single model.

Oshova

Edited for typo

insaniak wrote:People keep coming back to the idea that the player keeping his army in reserve was incompetent... and I'm honestly puzzled as to why.

It's not incompetent to fail to take into account that keeping your entire army in Reserve may result in a tournament judge deciding to just make up a rule that hands your opponent a win.

I'm in no way one to fault the guy in pic, as that was (AFAIK) the first recorded instance of that happening, and early into the 5th edition era. But, if someone had this happen to them today, I (and I doubt I'd be alone) would feel more than justified in some pointing and laughing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hcordes wrote:

Oshova wrote:Because you're not on the table maybe? Or maybe everyone should just take round some board extensions just in case this happens. So when your models don't fit on the table, you use a board extension, then charge from there.

Sorry hcordes, it just makes no sense to be able to assault when you're not on the table.

Oshova

it also doesn't make sense that when the rule books says THEY HAVE TO MOVE ONTO THE TABLE, and then.. someone says they can't and are destroyed because he has to make an on-the-spot ruling during a tournament.......

It makes the most sense of the available options. If we allow your 'charge on" approach to work, then what about shooting from off-board? And, if your models are just of the board edge, why can't I charge off the board to contact them? Etc...

Should they count as destroyed? Maybe not. But the rules don't allow for them to just hang around off-board, either. Regardless, by the end of the game, they're going to count for VP/KP.

kartofelkopf wrote:

It makes the most sense of the available options. If we allow your 'charge on" approach to work, then what about shooting from off-board? And, if your models are just of the board edge, why can't I charge off the board to contact them? Etc...

Should they count as destroyed? Maybe not. But the rules don't allow for them to just hang around off-board, either. Regardless, by the end of the game, they're going to count for VP/KP.

i think this is one of those round about arguements ..... something needs to be addressed here, so no one has to make an on the spot ruling.... thats all.

hcordes wrote:... but i see no reason why they can not charge into Hand to Hand, destroy a target unit blocking a path and create an opening which other units can pass.

That's one of the house rules that was suggested the previous times this came up. It's fine as a house rule, but not supported by the rules, which specifically require reserves to move on during the movement phase.

Oshova wrote:No. They apparently "Have" to move onto the table, but there is nowhere to move onto the table. So they stay in reserve until such a time when there is space.

Also fine as a house rule. But also not supported by the rules, which require reserves to move on as soon as they are available. Without a rule specifically allowing it (as in the case of Necrons coming in though the Monolith) they can not be held back until later... they have to move on immediately they become available.

So whether they are destroyed when they can't get on the table, left in reserve until they can come on, turned into a tasty chocolate dessert, it doesn't really make much difference. The White Scars lose, the Tau get a victory with full victory points, as there are no enemy models on the table, and didn't lose a single model.

If the house rule you adopt to deal with the situation involves the unit remaining off the board, then yes, they will be destroyed when the game ends. But that's not the only solution that has been previously floated to deal with this situation.

Other ideas have included:
1 - The aforementioned 'must move on' trumping the 'may not move within 1"' allowing them to move through the blocking units.
2 - allowing them to move on directly into close combat in the assault phase
3 - allowing them to move on from the nearest available board edge
4 - allowing them to outflank or deep strike
5 - forcing the infiltrators to maintain a certain distance from the board edge

... all of which are just as valid as forcing the unit to remain in reserves or counting them as immediately destroyed.

kartofelkopf wrote:I'm in no way one to fault the guy in pic, as that was (AFAIK) the first recorded instance of that happening, and early into the 5th edition era. But, if someone had this happen to them today, I (and I doubt I'd be alone) would feel more than justified in some pointing and laughing.

The fact that it's happened before, somewhere in the world, in no way means that tournament players the world over have heard of it.

Nor has the problem been resolved anywhere other than unofficial or tournament-specific FAQs.

bigyounk wrote:If it's a White Scar army he should of had the Khan and then he would be outflanking and this deployment would be useless.

Special characters were banned from that tournament.

I am pretty sure he had enough kroot to cover the short edges too.

insaniak wrote:People keep coming back to the idea that the player keeping his army in reserve was incompetent... and I'm honestly puzzled as to why.

It's not incompetent to fail to take into account that keeping your entire army in Reserve may result in a tournament judge deciding to just make up a rule that hands your opponent a win.

I disagree. The White Scars player was indeed incompetent. At that level of play (European Team Championship), you should be aware of the possibilities. And the possilibilty that the judges would agree with GW's old ruling that unit's unable to enter play are destroyed is something he should have taken into account.