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Couldn't the Scars player outflank Khan and come from the sides?

Read the thread man. No special characters allowed.

zeshin wrote:

doctorludo wrote:Probably saved him an hour or two struggling to enjoy a game against TFG. Would you really want to play someone who regarded that as a good way to win a game?

Although an entire bike army held back in reserve isn't a particularly sporting way to play, either, but I might be missing something about the White Scars.

In a friendly game I might suggest that the opponent not reserve everything and give him the reasons. This would teach him the error of his ways while still allowing for a fun game to be played. In a tournament however I don't see where you'd want to hold back. If your opponent makes a game changing mistake I think it's bad form not to exploit it. Should Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant have slowed down or not jumped as high because it wasn't fair to the other players?

And from what I understand, the Tau player kinda did warn him, asking him if he was sure he wanted to do that and pointing out that he had a lot of infiltrators. Come on, if your opponent gives you that kind of a clue, you really need to stop and think about what you're doing and why a combination of all-Reserves and lots of enemy infiltrators might be a bad thing.

I'm reminded of the three-move checkmate in Chess. It's possible, but it's the player's fault if it happens rather than some problem with the rules.

So you insult him because the White Scars player was an idiot? Or is it just players that score a victory while losing zero models (I've done it, BTW, with my IG).

hehe iv actually achieved this aswell. necron phase out at turn 3, and my guard army took no damage whatsoever. thank the machine spirit for leman russ!

and in regards to this post, i was under the impression that you couldnt put your whole amry in reserve. i thought that atleast one unit had to be on the board...

Nurglitch wrote:I'm reminded of the three-move checkmate in Chess. It's possible, but it's the player's fault if it happens rather than some problem with the rules.

I've been check-mated in two moves.. but I still get your point.

The Bringer wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I'm reminded of the three-move checkmate in Chess. It's possible, but it's the player's fault if it happens rather than some problem with the rules.

I've been check-mated in two moves.. but I still get your point.

Eh, it depends on what you mean by move.

Under standard chess nomenclature, a move consists of both players moving a piece.

"Fool's mate, also known as the "two-move checkmate," is the quickest possible checkmate in the game of chess."

Yea that image was from an international tourney in europe a year ago where the sm biker player held all his guys in reserve, not outflank or deep strike and the tau player infiltrated all his kroot in the deployment zone of the sm player, so he couldn't enter the board

Asherian Command wrote:
That is just a dick move....

Try playing tau. It's not as fun as yer space marines and imperial guard. Or anything else recent. Hell half the upgrades don't do crap and half the units don't do any better. I'll take any win for the greater good anyday, regardless of what the newer codex boyz say.

Agreed jutaigamer. People seem to forget that it was not the Tau player being TFG, it was the White Scars player by trying to deny the Tau 2 or 3 Turns to shoot at him, thus making it more likely he would win or at least Draw.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm reminded of the three-move checkmate in Chess. It's possible, but it's the player's fault if it happens rather than some problem with the rules.

Except that in chess, when your opponent pulls off a three-move checkmate, the rules actually say what happens... There's no excuse for not seeing it coming, because both players know up front what the result is going to be of each possible move.

This situation is more like a game of chess where the judge has wandered over after one player has moved his first pawn, and just awarded him the win for the hell of it.

insaniak:

No, I think I prefer my Chess analogy.

don_mondo said:
And I disagree with Sanguinis about it being an 'explot'. But I think I've made my opinion clear in previous posts, so I'll let it rest with that.

Fair enough. I guess by exploit I meant the Tau player had to really rummage through the rulebook to find out whether there was any consequence to what he was about to do and had to think about it prior to that tournament. From my standpoint thats an exploit. It's like a lawyer that goes through the rules very carefully looking for a loophole to win a case, is it fair? Yes. An exploit? Yes. Either way you spin it the Tau player won fair and square.

Lets all be honest that had the judge allowed the White Scars player to come on somehow that Tau player would have been royally screwed. All his units were in a line so LoS and unit positioning would have been a problem. Not to mention that it would have been terribly easy to charge his units especially with an outflank or if he just comes on the board edge.

Overall I think the Tau player won fair and square (as I said above) and I'm not gonna gripe to much because right now Tau are TERRIBLY UNDERPOWERED, so to see them win at all especially in something as big as that tournament sounded is quite impressive. I also agree with those of you who say the White Scars player was being a dick. Playing an all bike army is, 1. Expensive, and 2. Kind of a dick move. Like Mech Guard its an army that GW should never have allowed to begin with. Overall I think the ruling was quite fair, especially when you look at what is required to pull it off. It was a sort of Perfect Storm scenario!

SaintHazard wrote:This is 100% legal and an awesome move. High-five to the savvy Tau player.

This, kids, is why you don't hold an entire army in reserve when your opponent has hordes of infiltrators.

Should you really be allowed to know what the enemy has before you even get to the field?
Thats one thing that bugs me. "Oh this is a rhino with a tactical squad in it.... oh just kidding, it had termies in it.. take that Tau military intelligence".
That never happens. Everyone knows exactly what everyone else has before they've even made it to the planet.

SaintHazard wrote:This is 100% legal and an awesome move. High-five to the savvy Tau player.

This, kids, is why you don't hold an entire army in reserve when your opponent has hordes of infiltrators.

I completely agree.

It is extremely cheap when someone holds their entire army in reserve, because you can effectively get the first turn of firing and assaulting, sure you're giving your opponent to free moves, but it is still pretty cheap. He had it coming to him.

Honestly, the worst thing about the Tau player insta-winning is that his opponent was [insert some word here] enough to keep his entire army in reserve.

This is veering off course from a rules discussion to a tactics one.

Should we start a thread in tactics on the various advantages and disadvantages of starting an army completely in reserved?

Or, a thread in Proposed Rules to do away with the ability all together?

But, I think any rules issues relating to this have been addressed: "The rules are unclear, judge may decide this as valid."

Sanguinis wrote:Fair enough. I guess by exploit I meant the Tau player had to really rummage through the rulebook to find out whether there was any consequence to what he was about to do and had to think about it prior to that tournament. From my standpoint thats an exploit. It's like a lawyer that goes through the rules very carefully looking for a loophole to win a case, is it fair? Yes. An exploit? Yes. Either way you spin it the Tau player won fair and square.

I wouldn't say that it's an exploit. The rules don't say what to do when you can't enter on the appropriate table edge, true. There are a few obvious options - destroyed & back into reserves are the obvious ones. Problem is, with what the WS player had done it made no difference. With no skimmers, no vehicles, nothing outflanking, nothing deepstriking and nothing on the table he was screwed.

Put all of your eggs into one basket and this is the kind of thing that happens.

Sanguinis wrote:Lets all be honest that had the judge allowed the White Scars player to come on somehow that Tau player would have been royally screwed. All his units were in a line so LoS and unit positioning would have been a problem. Not to mention that it would have been terribly easy to charge his units especially with an outflank or if he just comes on the board edge.

He wouldn't have been screwed - only the kroot were on that edge and having a bunch of passable fighters behind you is not a good way to start.

Grakmar wrote:This is veering off course from a rules discussion to a tactics one.

Should we start a thread in tactics on the various advantages and disadvantages of starting an army completely in reserved?

That would be a good idea. This one seems to have been pretty well hashed out once again.