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As DAR just said, that's why I posted that. We have established it doesn't say he has Terminator Armour, he has Runic Terminator Armour. Sure doesn't seem like there's an issue here. Play RAW or play with your own rules, that's cool, but it isn't the purpose of this thread.

RAW it is not Terminator Armor, it is a piece of wargear similar to his staff (which it specifically states counts as a Runic Weapon).

Deuce11 wrote:

Antharius wrote:
let me just get the Spacewolves Codex.

i quote from Njal Stormcaller's rules p53 under wargear:

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Correct. It is Terminator Armor. This description tells you that it is. Njal has "ensorcel[ed]" it with a better invul. So it is terminator armor with the above save. Any other reading is nonsense. In fact it is not "rules lawyering" to advocate the opposing position in this case; it is "rules lying."

Nope. The first part is story but contains no rules. The second part contains rules.

For a similar thing look up Pathfinder Locator Beacon in the Tau Coxex. It says:

"Pathfinder Devilfish have a marker beacon which allows Battlesuits to land with a greater degree of accuracy. Tau units arriving via Deep Strike may choose to re-roll the scatter dice, however if they do you must accept the second result."

I had a RAW player complain to a judge that 'it says only Battlesuits can do this and he's trying to use it with Gun Drones..."

Even though it states "Battlesuits" in the fluff and "Tau units" in the rules.

You were performing a legal action by rerolling your scatter die for the drones.

(Why you were running a unit of Gun Drones is still beyond me, but that's an issue for Tactics, not YMDC )

Ordo Dakka wrote:We have established it doesn't say he has Terminator Armour, he has Runic Terminator Armour. Sure doesn't seem like there's an issue here. Play RAW or play with your own rules, that's cool, but it isn't the purpose of this thread.

Exactally,

I agree that it SHOULD count as terminator armor (for balancing purposes) my major question of the thread was simply "Is there any other justification other then "Balancing purposes" to say why it SHOULD count as Termi armor (for instance, an FAQ ruling, somewhere in the Main Rulebook/Codex that specifically states this that I may be missing, or some other RULE BASED justification...)

SaintHazard wrote:Even though it states "Battlesuits" in the fluff and "Tau units" in the rules.

You were performing a legal action by rerolling your scatter die for the drones.

(Why you were running a unit of Gun Drones is still beyond me, but that's an issue for Tactics, not YMDC )

My friend complained about my Battlesuits apparently being 'unfair' so I offered to beat him with an army made up of Vespid, Stealth Suits, footslogging Fire Warriors and Gun Drones. Oh and I picked three Sky Ray as heavy support... haha I won but only just!

Seems like it's not terminator armour as it has it's own name and rules, I'd have to let the opponent mount him up in a transport if he really wanted Ensorcelled FTW.

Also I think RAW should be a banned phrase, it's quite clearly Rules As Interpreted. Just because it's written down and someone interprets it one way doesn't mean that's the way it is (I WISH it was then my goddamned Contract Law exam in 2 months would be a hell of a lot easier).

SaintHazard wrote:

Like I said ten billion million times in the thread already - if "Runic Terminator Armour" is "Terminator Armour" because it says "Terminator Armour" after "Runic," then are my "Storm Bolters" actually "Heavy Bolters," because it says "Bolter" after "Storm?" Do all of my Storm Bolters now fire 3 S5 AP4 shots?

Sure. Why not? Your Storm Bolters are actually Heavy Bolters. However, they have some different rules. Instead of Str. 4 AP 5 2 shots, you fire 3 S5 AP4 shots.

Just like Runic Terminator armour is terminator armour. However, they have some different rules. Instead of 2+/5++, they're 2+/4++.

You mixed up the two bolter profiles, but I get your point.

In any case, that's not how the rules work.

puma713 wrote:

Sure. Why not? Your Storm Bolters are actually Heavy Bolters. However, they have some different rules. Instead of Str. 4 AP 5 2 shots, you fire 3 S5 AP4 shots.

Does that mean that they are Heavy instead of Assault?

On that topic, here is the entry for the storm bolter...


Based on the underlined description, you should ignore the profile provided (like you are with the "Runic terminator armor") and operate all storm bolters as firing two bolt guns (which you cannot do with a single model) so all Stormbolters now have the profile of "Range 24 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire" (You could argue that they get 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12 inches because of their "modified profile" of being two bolt guns" but...) if runic terminator armor is the same as terminator armor based on its decription, then a storm bolter is actually just two bolt guns (based on its description).

DAR: It says "resembles" not "is" or "acts as" or anything like that. It is only talking about it's appearance not its functionality, which doesn't help either side of the argument.

It's a good thing descriptions aren't rules then, isn't it?

if descriptions arent rules than njal does not have a 4+ invulnerable save.

Njals invulnerable save is only granted in the description of runic terminator armor where it states that is is terminator armor that has been ensorcled.

Grakmar wrote:DAR: It says "resembles" nt "is" or "acts as" or anything like that.

Actually, you just helped the side I DONT WANT to win... as neither "is" or "Acts as" can be found in runic terminator armor...

if we are playing RAW its also worth noting that unless you are in a tourney with someone named njal, njal may never use lord of tempests because njal is a model an not a player. As such njal never has a turn.

if njal never has a turn, there is never a begining of njals turns so njal may never use lord of tempests.

Unless your playing with the njal model and your the owning players turn and your name is also njal. But the tourney organizer requires you to have your ID on the table to prove it.

blaktoof wrote:if we are playing RAW its also worth noting that unless you are in a tourney with someone named njal, njal may never use lord of tempests because njal is a model an not a player. As such njal never has a turn.

if njal never has a turn, there is never a begining of njals turns so njal may never use lord of tempests.

Unless your playing with the njal model and your the owning players turn and your name is also njal. But the tourney organizer requires you to have your ID on the table to prove it.

Well, in that case, why are you even restricted to your game? If a player named Njal 4 or 5 tables away has a turn, you can immediately use your Lord of Tempests power. And, if they are playing a faster game than you, you can certainly use his power multiple times during one of your turns


And, DAR: The side arguing for it being Terminator Armor is saying that "Runic" is just a description of a type of terminator armor, they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

Ordo Dakka wrote:Play RAW or play with your own rules, that's cool, but it isn't the purpose of this thread.

RAW it is not Terminator Armor, it is a piece of wargear similar to his staff (which it specifically states counts as a Runic Weapon).

I don't understand the purpose of these threads at all. We have all established that it doesn't follow terminator armour rules by RAW. We have also put forward evidence that convinced individuals (myself included) that the armour is intended to be played as souped terminator armour, with all the rules that entails. We'll all decide for ourselves how we want to play. What's the point of the thread otherwise?

blaktoof wrote:if we are playing RAW its also worth noting that unless you are in a tourney with someone named njal, njal may never use lord of tempests because njal is a model an not a player. As such njal never has a turn.

if njal never has a turn, there is never a begining of njals turns so njal may never use lord of tempests.

Unless your playing with the njal model and your the owning players turn and your name is also njal. But the tourney organizer requires you to have your ID on the table to prove it.

Umm.. that's quite the stretch...

If you are controlling Njal, and it is your turn, would that not be Njal's turn as well? I mean, according to your outlook, you can't play Warhammer 40K (or any game for that matter) unless your name is either "Player" or "Opponent".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:
And, DAR: The side arguing for it being Terminator Armor is saying that "Runic" is just a description of a type of terminator armor, they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

I mean, based on that notion, wouldn't Lucius the Eternal's armor techinically by Artificer (and there for, he has a 2+ save?)

actually whats really funny is the njal stormcaller unit entry on p.82 of the codex which has the items you pay for when you allocate points in your army for the njal stormcaller unit

surprise surprise


doesnt even have runic terminator armor.

he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++ power armor per the space wolves codex wargear page, so njal doesnt get any of the benefits or drawbacks of runic terminator armor since RAW he doesnt have runic terminator armor, he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++

so that runic terminator armor under his entry is neat and all but he never comes with it if you purchase him to play with in an army, just good old runic armor 2+/5++ no 4++ save for njal RAW. :(

Grakmar wrote:they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

Actually, they are:

Antharius wrote:3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

SaintHazard wrote:

Grakmar wrote:they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

Actually, they are:

Antharius wrote:3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

Ah, I missed that part.

Yeah, just because something looks like something has zero impact on the rules for it.

The "Runic is just a description of the type of Terminator Armor" argument has some merit to it, but stay away from "A looks like B, therefor A is B".

blaktoof wrote:actually whats really funny is the njal stormcaller unit entry on p.82 of the codex which has the items you pay for when you allocate points in your army for the njal stormcaller unit

surprise surprise


doesnt even have runic terminator armor.

he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++ power armor per the space wolves codex wargear page, so njal doesnt get any of the benefits or drawbacks of runic terminator armor since RAW he doesnt have runic terminator armor, he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++

so that runic terminator armor under his entry is neat and all but he never comes with it if you purchase him to play with in an army, just good old runic armor 2+/5++ no 4++ save for njal RAW. :(

Look to the right, where it says you pay 25 points to replace his runic armor(and his grenades) with runic Terminator armor

Edit, he also doesn't have a 5++ he has a 5+ Invul against WOUNDS CAUSE BY PSYCHIC POWERS

I think that we can easily end this argument simple because Njal can take both power armor and a suit of TDA. ANY Space Wolves player would consider Njal's TDA as being Terminator armor and use the rules for Terminator armor when it comes to making sweeping advances and taking transports. Anything else is just manipulation of the rules. If you want to fit in Rhinos and fire out the top, take Njal for 245pts in Power Armor.

Even if you don't agree with my statement saying that I'm making a logical leap, pretty much the entire SW codex requires a logical leap to reach a playable set of units. And even the most tight-assed ultra-competitive player wouldn't have a problem with you willingly playing with the DISADVANTAGES of having Terminator armor when paying 275 for Njal.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:I think that we can easily end this argument simple because Njal can take both power armor and a suit of TDA.

Runic armor is not powerarmor... if it were, I'd be very angry at my opponents for taking 2+ saves...

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:
ANY Space Wolves player would consider Njal's TDA as being Terminator armor and use the rules for Terminator armor when it comes to making sweeping advances and taking transports. Anything else is just manipulation of the rules.

The rules for his Runic Terminator Armor (which in no way states that it is TDA) state that he has a 2+ armor (same as his runic armor) and a 4+ invul (which is what you are paying 25 points for). Manipulating the rules would entail saying that he can't fit in rhinos nor make SA moves and counts as 2 models in a transport...

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:
Even if you don't agree with my statement saying that I'm making a logical leap, pretty much the entire SW codex requires a logical leap to reach a playable set of units. And even the most tight-assed ultra-competitive player wouldn't have a problem with you willingly playing with the DISADVANTAGES of having Terminator armor when paying 275 for Njal.

Actually, if you look at the examples listed, any other place that would require a "logical leap" (as you put it) specifically states how the thing would function... (examples: Sky claws having Blood Claw special rules, Foehammer/Staff of Stormcaller/Nightwing/Axe of Morkai ((and others)) specifically refer to their respective wargear entries, Bjorn being Venerable, etc)

For those saying that Njal has Terminator armor, and that armor is also runic(because it contains the three separate terms "Runic", "terminator", and "armor") and thus stating that it should follow all the rules for terminator armor and Runic Armor; then that would mean his 4++ save is also only applicable to wounds caused by psychic powers(just like hi regular runic armor).

Also to those quoting the beginning fluff portion of the Runic terminator Armors rules; it does not state that the Runic terminator armor that Njal is wearing is one of those "Ensorceled terminator Armors"; only that he can make them. Whether he can make them or not holds no bearing on whether or not he is wearing it; What he is wearing(via the upgrade) is a 2+/4++ suit of Armor.

Also note with the Runic Terminator Armor not being Terminator Armor he loses many of the Good points of terminator armor as well; such as being relentless.

Yes, I am aware he does not need to be relentless: but still, He's not.

For the people who cant understand the technicality mentioned.

When you ask where does it say "Terminator Armour" and they answer "Runic Terminator Armour" they are being correct as "Runic Terminator Armour" contains the words "Terminator Armour" so that is the technicality, you are asking where are these words and they have told you.

HOWEVER that does not mean that it IS Terminator Armour or has the same rules as it. Just like if you ask where does it say 'bolter' where it says 'heavy bolter' they would answer 'heavy bolter' which is correct that is where it says the word you are asking for. But as everyone and their granny has mentioned, just because it contains these words doesn't mean that it is it.

That is what happens when you ask for a word. #
RAW = It is not Terminator Armour.
However I think RAI is that it should be.

Also, don't reply to me to say I'm Dumb it is not Terminator armour. As I already know this. (this is for people who don't read full posts)

blaktoof wrote:actually whats really funny is the njal stormcaller unit entry on p.82 of the codex which has the items you pay for when you allocate points in your army for the njal stormcaller unit

surprise surprise


doesnt even have runic terminator armor.

he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++ power armor per the space wolves codex wargear page, so njal doesnt get any of the benefits or drawbacks of runic terminator armor since RAW he doesnt have runic terminator armor, he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++

so that runic terminator armor under his entry is neat and all but he never comes with it if you purchase him to play with in an army, just good old runic armor 2+/5++ no 4++ save for njal RAW. :(

hahahaha it never ends does it?

yes on page 82 it does say he isnt equiped with runic Terminator armour but and i mean but under options and i quote:
-May replace his runic armour, frag and krak grenades with runic Terminator armour for an additional +25 points.

runic armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulnerable save against psychic attacks
terminator armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulmerable save
Runic Terminator armour 2+ armour save 4++ invulnerable save

so all that Runic Terminator Armour is terminator armour with a +1 to the invulnerable save

so can we put this debate about Njals armour to rest

Frankly; no.

Because the entire debate is the fact that the Runic terminator armor =/= terminator armor at all.

You had the first bit correct:

runic armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulnerable save against psychic attacks
terminator armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulmerable save
Runic Terminator armour 2+ armour save 4++ invulnerable save

Then you got the final answer incorrect.

All Runic terminator Armor is is an upgrade that grants Njal a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save. That is it. It is not Terminator armor with a -1 to the invulnerable save

Rules don't work like Venn Diagrams, Antharius.

It is not Runic Armour and Terminator Armour, it is Runic Terminator Armour. That is what it says. It is an upgrade called Runic Terminator Armour. It is not an upgrade to Terminator Armour that adds +1 to the invulnerable save.

well tell that to GW that believes that it is terminator armour

And where is this stated?