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So I was having a conversation about Njal rulebreaker and his major flaws with a buddy of mine. This buddy seems more of a "RAW-dogger" (pardon the obscenity) then GWAR, which is not a bad thing, but due to his "strict word by word" rulings, he brought up a VERY interesting point that I felt could use some debate here...

What is Njal's "Runic Terminator Armor".

Is it "Terminator Armor", "Runic Armor", or something new and different! Meaning, as the codex states nothing more then it "Confers a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invul save" does that mean that it ALSO counts at TERMINATOR armor for EVERYTHING else that would act as an inhibitor. For example, does it make Njal count as two models when embarked in a transport, does it prohibit Njal from riding in Rhinos/Razorbacks and does it prevent Njal from making a Sweeping Advance in close combat?

I don't think it shoud (not count as termi armor for all other reasons) I was just wondering if there was any concrete evidence on why it would count as normal terminator armor.

I seem to recall the gist of it is that RAW it doesn't count as Terminator Armour as nowhere does Runic Terminator Armour count as Terminator Armour...

I think it's fairly obvious that the intent is for it to count as Terminator Armour with an enhanced invulnerable save...

But by the RAW, yes, the entry doesn't specify that it follows the same rules as normal Terminator armour. It simply states that he has a specific armour and invulnerable save as a result of his ability to ensorcel Terminator armour.

I would play it as terminator armour, personally. Discuss it with your opponent if in doubt.

insaniak wrote:
I would play it as terminator armour, personally. Discuss it with your opponent if in doubt.

I agree, and this is actually how it came up, as I said "Njal wouldn't be so bad if you could stick him in a transport for safety" and he said "Stick him in a rhino so his ability still works"

I am just hoping for a bit more justification for "Na-uh" when telliing him to bugger off.

There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Miraclefish, one could argue semantics on that point; GW uses Terminator as a descriptor since "Terminator armour" is written just so without capitalization on the a in armour. The rules for "Terminator Armour" states that a model wearing Terminator armour has a 2+ save etc. and that a model in "Terminator armour count as two models".

I'm not saying there's a concrete and final solution, but a possible argument.

We knew he'd be back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, he's already playable. Don't use him until you're in a winning position... then argue over his rules in an orgy of activation until the clock runs out. He's a must for tournament players.

Ordo Dakka wrote:
Also, he's already playable. Don't use him until you're in a winning position... then argue over his rules in an orgy of activation until the clock runs out. He's a must for tournament players.

I want to nominate you for "Win" of the year

insaniak wrote:There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Are Storm Bolters also Bolters? What about Heavy Bolters? I know this argument is used at every opportunity, but it applies. Runic Terminator Armour is not necessarily Terminator Armour, else Storm Bolters could use specialized ammunition.

So I don't see any argument at all that Njal's Runic Terminator Armour is Terminator Armour.

However, a house rule to make it so would not go amiss. I can't imagine the intent was for a regular Terminator to not be able to fit in a Rhino, but for Njal to fit just fine.

SaintHazard wrote:

insaniak wrote:There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Are Storm Bolters also Bolters? What about Heavy Bolters? I know this argument is used at every opportunity, but it applies. Runic Terminator Armour is not necessarily Terminator Armour, else Storm Bolters could use specialized ammunition.

So I don't see any argument at all that Njal's Runic Terminator Armour is Terminator Armour.

However, a house rule to make it so would not go amiss. I can't imagine the intent was for a regular Terminator to not be able to fit in a Rhino, but for Njal to fit just fine.

In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

And lets not forget that not only does Njal have super magical Terminator Armour that can embark on Rhinos and Sweeping Advance, he also is the only person in the entire Galaxy who knows how to hold a Bolt Pistol when in said armour.

That fact alone suggests that they intended for it to not have the Drawbacks of Terminator Armour, but I digress...

To confirm: RaW, it is NOT Terminator Armour and does NOT follow ANY of the rules for Terminator Armour. This includes the prohibition on embarking on Rhino-based transports and the disallowing of Sweeping Advance.

Ordo Dakka wrote:In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

Or, more accurately, "in the grim darkness of YMDC, there is only RAW, because that's what the damn forum is for?"

With a side of "how you would play it," of course.

So, instead of spamming/complaining, you could contribute.

It's a thing you can do, RAW!

I was just making a joke, i'd like to think i'm pretty RAW myself. I'm so RAW I get calluses from it. I'm more RAW than motherless.com. I'm so RAW, in fact, that people often try to stick me back on the grill before I tell them that RAW means RAW!

Seriously though, I agree with you. Especially about the rhino-flamer issue in the other thread. I don't even think they should be able to fire from the hatch if we go by "true to the fluff", it's fething ridiculous.

SaintHazard wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

Or, more accurately, "in the grim darkness of YMDC, there is only RAW, because that's what the damn forum is for?"

YMDC is for discussing the rules. That doesn't only include RAW, but also covers how people actually play the game.

Discussing only RAW in situations where the RAW is plainly absurd is pointless.

SaintHazard wrote:

insaniak wrote:There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Are Storm Bolters also Bolters? What about Heavy Bolters? I know this argument is used at every opportunity, but it applies. Runic Terminator Armour is not necessarily Terminator Armour, else Storm Bolters could use specialized ammunition.

So I don't see any argument at all that Njal's Runic Terminator Armour is Terminator Armour.

However, a house rule to make it so would not go amiss. I can't imagine the intent was for a regular Terminator to not be able to fit in a Rhino, but for Njal to fit just fine.

Storm Bolters could never use specialized ammo anyways because they are not StormBoltguns.

then again technically Combi-weapons do not have any profile for the not-special weapon part as there is no "Bolter" Profile(even the Boltgun profile lacks any text, fluff or otherwise, that calls it a bolter alternatively).

P.S. Helfire rounds also specify they are fired from boltguns, and boltguns only(although they are "Bolter rounds")

insaniak wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

Or, more accurately, "in the grim darkness of YMDC, there is only RAW, because that's what the damn forum is for?"

YMDC is for discussing the rules. That doesn't only include RAW, but also covers how people actually play the game.

Discussing only RAW in situations where the RAW is plainly absurd is pointless.

And what gives you the right to decide what is "plainly absurd"?

Gwar! wrote:And what gives you the right to decide what is "plainly absurd"?

The same thing that gives me the right to decide whether to have another coffee, or whether to watch TV, or have a nap.

I'm a little confused as to just what point you think you're making here, Gwar.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:So I was having a conversation about Njal rulebreaker and his major flaws with a buddy of mine. This buddy seems more of a "RAW-dogger" (pardon the obscenity) then GWAR, which is not a bad thing, but due to his "strict word by word" rulings, he brought up a VERY interesting point that I felt could use some debate here...

What is Njal's "Runic Terminator Armor".

Is it "Terminator Armor", "Runic Armor", or something new and different! Meaning, as the codex states nothing more then it "Confers a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invul save" does that mean that it ALSO counts at TERMINATOR armor for EVERYTHING else that would act as an inhibitor. For example, does it make Njal count as two models when embarked in a transport, does it prohibit Njal from riding in Rhinos/Razorbacks and does it prevent Njal from making a Sweeping Advance in close combat?

I don't think it shoud (not count as termi armor for all other reasons) I was just wondering if there was any concrete evidence on why it would count as normal terminator armor.

The Key word in the entry is "TERMINATOR"

so in saying that
1: he is in a special Terminator armour.
2: He is a Rune priest so would benefit from their equipment.
3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

In closing he should be in treated like any other model in terminator Armour

Im Atharius and that my $1.20

Antharius wrote:The Key word in the entry is "TERMINATOR"

so in saying that
1: he is in a special Terminator armour.
2: He is a Rune priest so would benefit from their equipment.
3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

In closing he should be in treated like any other model in terminator Armour

Im Atharius and that my $1.20

Nowhere do the rules say this at all. This is like saying a Scout with a Power Weapon must have Power Armour because Power Weapon and Carapace Armour have the words "Power" and "Armour" in them.

Gwar! wrote:

Antharius wrote:The Key word in the entry is "TERMINATOR"

so in saying that
1: he is in a special Terminator armour.
2: He is a Rune priest so would benefit from their equipment.
3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

In closing he should be in treated like any other model in terminator Armour

Im Atharius and that my $1.20

Nowhere do the rules say this at all. This is like saying a Scout with a Power Weapon must have Power Armour because Power Weapon and Carapace Armour have the words "Power" and "Armour" in them.

let me just get the Spacewolves Codex.

i quote from Njal Stormcaller's rules p53 under wargear:

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Is "Terminator Armor" called "Runic Terminator Armor"?

Does "Terminator Armor" confer a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save?

The answer to both of these questions is no. The first one is enough to tell you that "Runic Terminator Armor" is not "Terminator Armor," just like a "Heavy Bolter" is not a "Bolter," a "Land Speeder" is not a "Land Raider," and a "Power Weapon" is not a "Power Fist."

So if you can, RAW, claim Njal is wearing "Terminator Armour," then I, RAW, get to pay the points for a squadron of three Land Speeders, but they're all AV 14 on all sides, have two twin-linked lascannons, and a twin-linked heavy bolter. Oh, and they can carry 12 models and have assault ramps. Furthermore, I'm going to field a unit of 5 Terminators all with Heavy Bolters, because Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter both have the word "Bolter" in them. Hell, while I'm at it, I'm gonna go ahead and give them all Runic Terminator Armour! Because by your logic, that's how wargear works.

Runic Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour, RAW.

If you want to house-rule it so that it is, go wild - but recognize that that's all it is - a house rule.

SaintHazard wrote:Is "Terminator Armor" called "Runic Terminator Armor"?

Does "Terminator Armor" confer a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save?

The answer to both of these questions is no. The first one is enough to tell you that "Runic Terminator Armor" is not "Terminator Armor," just like a "Heavy Bolter" is not a "Bolter," a "Land Speeder" is not a "Land Raider," and a "Power Weapon" is not a "Power Fist."

So if you can, RAW, claim Njal is wearing "Terminator Armour," then I, RAW, get to pay the points for a squadron of three Land Speeders, but they're all AV 14 on all sides, have two twin-linked lascannons, and a twin-linked heavy bolter. Oh, and they can carry 12 models and have assault ramps. Furthermore, I'm going to field a unit of 5 Terminators all with Heavy Bolters, because Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter both have the word "Bolter" in them. Hell, while I'm at it, I'm gonna go ahead and give them all Runic Terminator Armour! Because by your logic, that's how wargear works.

Runic Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour, RAW.

If you want to house-rule it so that it is, go wild - but recognize that that's all it is - a house rule.

Acually if i want to contradict what i said just then he has both runic armour and runic terminator armour for a extra 25 pts.

normal terminator has a 5+ but Njals Runic Terminator give him a 4+ so technically every one is right and wrong if you want to be difficult pick up the codex like i have and read his rules.

Wow, it is pretty clear that it is Terminator armor. Albeit a "special" suit of terminator armor.

It is described as Terminator armor in it's rules, description, and army entry.

Gwar! wrote:And lets not forget that not only does Njal have super magical Terminator Armour that can embark on Rhinos and Sweeping Advance, he also is the only person in the entire Galaxy who knows how to hold a Bolt Pistol when in said armour.

On a tangent, vanilla marine librarians can take terminator armor and bolt pistols, thus giving them +1A even when in a terminator armor. I just played against 1 today.

yes that is true and Njal can also wield a bolt pistol in terminator armour because he has set wargear with the exception of being taken in runic terminator armour

jy2 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And lets not forget that not only does Njal have super magical Terminator Armour that can embark on Rhinos and Sweeping Advance, he also is the only person in the entire Galaxy who knows how to hold a Bolt Pistol when in said armour.

On a tangent, vanilla marine librarians can take terminator armor and bolt pistols, thus giving them +1A even when in a terminator armor. I just played against 1 today.

Then you played against an illegal Librarian.

Librarians may take a bolt pistol OR a boltgun. In order to take Terminator Armour, they "replace power armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades"

In order to replace a boltgun, they have to have a boltgun, and therefore cannot have a bolt pistol, since they cannot have both at the same time.

There's no way for a Vanilla Librarian to take TDA and a bolt pistol.

jy2 wrote:On a tangent, vanilla marine librarians can take terminator armor and bolt pistols, thus giving them +1A even when in a terminator armor. I just played against 1 today.

Nope, not legal.
They have the option to take a boltgun or bolt pistol.
In order to upgrade to Terminator armour, one of the things they have to 'trade in' is a boltgun.
In order to have a boltgun to trade, they had to take it instead of the pistol.

So no way to have a bolt pistol on a vanilla Librarian.

Antharius wrote:
let me just get the Spacewolves Codex.

i quote from Njal Stormcaller's rules p53 under wargear:

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Correct. It is Terminator Armor. This description tells you that it is. Njal has "ensorcel[ed]" it with a better invul. So it is terminator armor with the above save. Any other reading is nonsense. In fact it is not "rules lawyering" to advocate the opposing position in this case; it is "rules lying."

Except that fluff /= rules, and never has?

SaintHazard wrote:
Librarians may take a bolt pistol OR a boltgun. In order to take Terminator Armour, they "replace power armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades"

In order to replace a boltgun, they have to have a boltgun, and therefore cannot have a bolt pistol, since they cannot have both at the same time.

There's no way for a Vanilla Librarian to take TDA and a bolt pistol.

That's what I told him also....that he can't do that. His stance was that they have to replace it if they had it. Since he didn't have a boltgun (only the bolt pistol), only the other equipment got replaced by terminator armor.

So I just let it go rather than argue with him. It's only 1 extra attack.


On another tangent, he didn't let me cast Boon of Mutation onto Vulkan who was locked in combat.